124 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

The InnerSphere Gauss Rifle and AC/20 both cost the same, 300,000 C-bills. Let's compare:

• Gausss Rifle has more than twice the firing range of the AC/20
  
• Gauss Rifle generates far less heat than AC/20
  
• Gauss does 15 damage per unit of time, which is pretty close to the 20dmg/time generated by an AC/20.
  
• Gauss Slugs move at higher velocity => easier to hit your target
  
• Gauss ammo weighs less than AC/20 ammo
  
• Gauss ammo cannot explode: when the gun explodes it does only 15 damage total, compared to dealing 20dmg/round if your AC/20 ammo detonates
  
• They both take up the same amount of chassis space
  
• They both are available at game launch

The only Mech-Lab difference between them is that a Gauss Rifles weighs 1 ton more than an AC/20, and you can make up for that with a single heatsink because Gauss generates less heat than an AC/20.


So... why would anyone want an AC/20 over a Gauss Rifle? Are all those advantages that a Gauss Rifle brings to the table worth throwing away for +5dmg per shot? I guess you could argue that AC/20 ammo is cheaper than Gauss ammo, but the money you'd save from keeping your Mech intact by staying hundreds of meters outside of AC/20 and medium laser range will more than cover the cost of ammo.

The AC/20 has some advantages such as a lower BV, it can use specialty ammo (as mentioned by kudzu), and I guess it may be better for inner-city fighting if you stick to close-quarters only... but I don't see those benifits outweighing the advantages of the MAC.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 May 2012 - 07:53 AM.

[Grokmoo]

I am guessing that the following will be true in MWO as compared to Tabletop.

(1) A Gauss rifle will likely cost more than an AC/20.

(2) The Gauss rifle will likely have a substantially slower firing rate than the AC/20.

(3) The AC/20 will likely do substantially more damage than the Gauss rifle. Possibly more of a difference than 20 vs 15.

We will have to wait and see how the developers balance things out.

[Redshift2k5]

Weapon cycle time? How much total damage can the AC/20 deal in a similar span of time as the Gauss?

The AC/20 ammo is also cheaper, and comes stock in more mechs than the gauss. The ac/20 in your hunchback won't cost you any extra, but you'd need extra Cbills to buy a Gauss rifle to install instead.

[wwiiogre]

Nothing says love like a single shot that takes off a Medium or Light Mechs arm or cripples a leg. Two shots can usually core a Heavy or Assault Mechs side torsos. Three Shots can usually core an Assault Center Torso.

I guess the real answer is personal preference. And Gauss were very rare at this time frame and hopefully PGI will make them cost more at this point in time. Only celebrities and royalty had them pre clan or some of the most elite units. They were becoming available, but most pilots could not afford a Gauss, while the AC-20 was usually already installed in their mech.

Chris

[Felicitatem Parco]

Redshift2k5, on 17 May 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

Weapon cycle time? How much total damage can the AC/20 deal in a similar span of time as the Gauss?

The AC/20 ammo is also cheaper, and comes stock in more mechs than the gauss. The ac/20 in your hunchback won't cost you any extra, but you'd need extra Cbills to buy a Gauss rifle to install instead.

15 damage per time with Gauss compared to 20 damage per time with AC/20.

[Outlaw2]

That's a good question.

However, its assuming that these weapons will use the same exact stats and costs as their TT counterparts at MWO launch.
Its also assuming their won't be an in-game price (BV) associated with these weapons.

[Kudzu]

Lower BV, once the ammo is gone from an AC/20 your risk of explosion is also gone, AC/20's can use specialty ammo, 15 is close to 20 but 20 is still more (look at the leg armor of a Marauder or Warhammer).

[Felicitatem Parco]

I know 20 > 15, but 2x 15 > 20... and 3x 15 >> 20... that's why range and accuracy is a huge issue, and the Gauss has it.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 May 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Unfortunately until we know what figures they are using in game, its a moot point. Personally if I ever piloted an Atlas I always replaced the AC20 with a Gauss Rifle. It just made more sense given its speed.

[Cruiser]

I'd say that AC/20 makes for a better brawler weapon. I know you can brawl as well with the gauss rifle, but if you happen to miss with your gauss in close combat, then you will have lost a huge chunk of your DPS and must wait for the next shot to reload which could be fatal in a close-range scenario.

With the AC/20, you can fire it relativly often and a missed shot wont have fatal consequences.

This scenario will be especially important if the developers choose to impose some sort of movement penalty on precision weapons, like the gauss rifle, meaning that it would have a harder time in high-intensity situations.

[Garth Erlam]

Prosperity Park, on 17 May 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

The InnerSphere Gauss Rifle and AC/20 both cost the same, 300,000 C-bills. Let's compare:

• Gausss Rifle has more than twice the firing range of the AC/20
  
• Gauss Rifle generates far less heat than AC/20
  
• Gauss does 15 damage per unit of time, which is pretty close to the 20dmg/time generated by an AC/20.
  
• Gauss Slugs move at higher velocity => easier to hit your target
  
• Gauss ammo weighs less than AC/20 ammo
  
• Gauss ammo cannot explode: when the gun explodes it does only 15 damage total, compared to dealing 20dmg/round if your AC/20 ammo detonates
  
• They both take up the same amount of chassis space
  
• They both are available at game launch

The only Mech-Lab difference between them is that a Gauss Rifles weighs 1 ton more than an AC/20, and you can make up for that with a single heatsink because Gauss generates less heat than an AC/20.




So... why would anyone want an AC/20 over a Gauss Rifle? Are all those advantages that a Gauss Rifle brings to the table worth throwing away for +5dmg per shot? I guess you could argue that AC/20 ammo is cheaper than Gauss ammo, but the money you'd save from keeping your Mech intact by staying hundreds of meters outside of AC/20 and medium laser range will more than cover the cost of ammo.

The AC/20 has some advantages such as a lower BV, it can use specialty ammo (as mentioned by kudzu), and I guess it may be better for inner-city fighting if you stick to close-quarters only... but I don't see those benifits outweighing the advantages of the MAC.

A Gauss rifle does 75% of the damage an AC/20 does, and weighs a ton more. That means you could add a Medium Laser, meaning for the same tonage you're doing yet another five extra damage. Or you add ammo. Or armour. Etc etc.

I think you're making a mountain of a molehill here; although discussion is always good, it can sometimes become overly assuming

[Felicitatem Parco]

Cruiser, on 17 May 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

I'd say that AC/20 makes for a better brawler weapon. I know you can brawl as well with the gauss rifle, but if you happen to miss with your gauss in close combat, then you will have lost a huge chunk of your DPS and must wait for the next shot to reload which could be fatal in a close-range scenario.

With the AC/20, you can fire it relativly often and a missed shot wont have fatal consequences.

This scenario will be especially important if the developers choose to impose some sort of movement penalty on precision weapons, like the gauss rifle, meaning that it would have a harder time in high-intensity situations.

The rules say a Gauss deals out 15 damage per unit time and the AC/20 deals out 20 damage per unit time... that's pretty close. And, if the Gauss-slinger nails a preliminary shot from outside of AC/20 range and then they start slugging one-on-one, the fight will be completely tied after each of them land 3 close-range shots each with a total damage of 60 being recieved by both parties (15 + 15x3 = 3x20).

And that 1 ton of extra armor you got by keeping the AC wouldn't really hold up to that shot fired from 500m away... I guess only the dedicated, in-your-faciest, brawliest of brawlers would go AC/20...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 May 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[CoffiNail]

Because it is a friggin AC/20!! Duhh!

[Felicitatem Parco]

Well, I did place this inthe Suggestion thread for a reason: It's to encourage the Devs to make some good arguments for the AC/20. Cost and availability would be good starts. I saw in the Mechlab demo videos that Price was not a difference... that should change in my opinion.

In the spirit of an RPG, you might want to keep some weapons unavailable to players until they accumulate enough XP to get the kind of "prestige" needed to acquire such a unique weapon as a Gauss Rifle...? This would encourage players to play more to get the XP they need for Mech Chassis abilties AND to get some market clout. You can buy more c-bills, but if you can't get your foot in the door, then you can't buy your way to better weapons.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 May 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Prosperity Park, on 17 May 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

15 damage per time with Gauss compared to 20 damage per time with AC/20.

You're not accounting for the time it takes the weapon to cycle the next shot. If the AC/20 does more damage and cycles faster, it will do far more damage within a two minute span than a longer reloading weapon that does less damage, to boot

[Felicitatem Parco]

"Per unit time" means it accounts for firing and reloading - it's the averaged damage output per hour, or per minute, or per whatever unit of time you use.

I think the official rulebooks say that damage is measured in 10-second increments, or something like that... I just say "per unit time" because it's universal.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 17 May 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[Kudzu]

Prosperity Park, on 17 May 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

I know 20 > 15, but 2x 15 > 20... and 3x 15 >> 20... that's why range and accuracy is a huge issue, and the Gauss has it.

Speaking of range, in the TT the Gauss had a minimum range to it as well. I doubt we'll see that in game, but it was another balancing mechanism.

[Cruiser]

Prosperity Park, on 17 May 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

The rules say a Gauss deals out 15 damage per unit time and the AC/20 deals out 20 damage per unit time... that's pretty close. And, if the Gauss-slinger nails a preliminary shot from outside of AC/20 range and then they start slugging one-on-one, the fight will be completely tied after each of them land 3 close-range shots each with a total damage of 60 being recieved by both parties (15 + 15x3 = 3x20).

And that 1 ton of extra armor you got by keeping the AC wouldn't really hold up to that shot fired from 500m away... I guess only the dedicated, in-your-faciest, brawliest of brawlers would go AC/20...

Well, I can tell you if I had an AC/20 and I knew that my enemy had a gauss rifle, I wouldn't be running out in the open like an ***** to get popped by his gauss. I'd get close to him using canyons, mountainsides whatever. where I could open up my AC/20 on him.

And that goes for pretty much any brawler mech. You dont do longrange fights if you don't have long-range weapons. You stay out of sight and close with the enemy while in cover.

[Helmer]

Being horrible with long ranged weaponry , I definitely would rather have the AC/20 with extra ammo. However, I'll hold all judgements until I can play with both weapons with everything implemented. I can see pros and cons of both weapons, but my conjecture at this point probably wont survive contact with the actual game.




Cheers.

[Monky]

Gauss Rifle fits the slot of AC15 (or what it would likely have been), however it gets extra range for extra tonnage, actually clocking in at 1 more ton than the AC20. It also takes up 3 less critical slots, which is an important factor.