Actually piloting a light and calling the shots at the same time is extremely hard and it's like pulling teeth to get someone else in a premade to run a 3L because it is 0% fun. Usually I call strategies at least half as well when I am still alive, so if you see me in a raven, killing me is the worst thing you can do because I can lead my team to victory every time but I cannot always pilot my team to victory.
Yes, you do get a good view of the battlefield, but turning hard left to avoid a salvo that literally WILL kill you if it connects is so stressful that you can't really avoid that salvo and call intricate orders at the same time. For this reason I like to be in an easymode slow going atlas.
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Is Trying Hard Getting You Down? Would You Rather Just Win All The Time?
Started by Captain Midnight, Dec 14 2012 08:49 PM
66 replies to this topic
#42
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:46 AM
Soo, what will he do if he is actively trying to get away from someone, or fighting someone, and the whole team needs some orders too?
How is it possible to safely open map in a scout mech to see the current tac sit at any given time?
Should a commander scout a little less effectively while he thinks over tactical situation and gives orders?
Should a commander stop giving orders at all if he is in close fight, where his speed and his wits are the only things that save him from //alpha of that atlas//that commando with streaks// a pair of enemy ravens//?
Whoops, Midnight already answered that himself.
I couldn't command from raven too, and as an raven pilot - no command for me :/
How is it possible to safely open map in a scout mech to see the current tac sit at any given time?
Should a commander scout a little less effectively while he thinks over tactical situation and gives orders?
Should a commander stop giving orders at all if he is in close fight, where his speed and his wits are the only things that save him from //alpha of that atlas//that commando with streaks// a pair of enemy ravens//?
Whoops, Midnight already answered that himself.
I couldn't command from raven too, and as an raven pilot - no command for me :/
Edited by PartyAlias, 15 December 2012 - 05:48 AM.
#43
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:56 AM
PartyAlias, on 15 December 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:
Soo, what will he do if he is actively trying to get away from someone, or fighting someone, and the whole team needs some orders too?
How is it possible to safely open map in a scout mech to see the current tac sit at any given time?
Should a commander scout a little less effectively while he thinks over tactical situation and gives orders?
Should a commander stop giving orders at all if he is in close fight, where his speed and his wits are the only things that save him from //alpha of that atlas//that commando with streaks// a pair of enemy ravens//?
Whoops, Midnight already answered that himself.
I couldn't command from raven too, and as an raven pilot - no command for me :/
How is it possible to safely open map in a scout mech to see the current tac sit at any given time?
Should a commander scout a little less effectively while he thinks over tactical situation and gives orders?
Should a commander stop giving orders at all if he is in close fight, where his speed and his wits are the only things that save him from //alpha of that atlas//that commando with streaks// a pair of enemy ravens//?
Whoops, Midnight already answered that himself.
I couldn't command from raven too, and as an raven pilot - no command for me :/
I usually command from a A-1 Catapult but I can see the pros and cons of running scout for info as the commander.
I've not done it myself though so I hadn't considered some of the cons as much as would be appropriate.
#44
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:57 AM
@ the op.
The AC5 should be higher teir, it has exceptional dpsph, if you want a short range (but not hugging) atlas AC5 + SSRM + ML is the way to go.
Your DDC atlas build could IMO use a 350 engine, 300 engine is not acceptable for pugging because you'll be left out of position by useless team mates too often.
Your laser hunch is sub optimal, wants double heatsinks and a few small lasers (so you can fire them off cool down when you're running hot). It does not need an XL engine (you can fit the biggest possible without going xl if you have DHS maybe endo as well?.)
Other than that I totally agree with you, the mechs you list make up most of the mechs I use, every other mech I use compared to these feels a fair bit worse and posts much lower damage and kills.
The AC5 should be higher teir, it has exceptional dpsph, if you want a short range (but not hugging) atlas AC5 + SSRM + ML is the way to go.
Your DDC atlas build could IMO use a 350 engine, 300 engine is not acceptable for pugging because you'll be left out of position by useless team mates too often.
Your laser hunch is sub optimal, wants double heatsinks and a few small lasers (so you can fire them off cool down when you're running hot). It does not need an XL engine (you can fit the biggest possible without going xl if you have DHS maybe endo as well?.)
Other than that I totally agree with you, the mechs you list make up most of the mechs I use, every other mech I use compared to these feels a fair bit worse and posts much lower damage and kills.
Edited by OVBlueGhost, 15 December 2012 - 05:58 AM.
#45
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:01 AM
The OP lists 9 out of 11 chassis as being at least workable.
#46
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:04 AM
Well OV like I said in the 4P section, DHS depends on whether you think DHS are 2.0 in the engine. I personally do not believe they are, thus SHS are the obvious choice. If I did believe that DHS were 2.0 in the engine then DHS would be the obvious choice. It depends purely on the readers opinion of DHS vs. SHS for engine efficiency.
As for the atlas DDC build being left behind, well, I disagree. Even in a PUG with a 300 you can be in the right places at the right times. If you spend 20 seconds shooting without looking at your minimap, or even 10-15 seconds, you mind wind up alone. If you are aware of your team movements you will not be alone in a 300. You have to literally stand still and not realize you should be moving someplace else to wind up out of position.
ED: This game is pretty damn well balanced, almost every mech CAN win with skill considered... But if I wasn't playing people I was better than 99% of the time I would have a lot less mechs to use. In 8v8 where skill is much more directly tested a team can lose simply for not have enough 3Ls and DDCs in their roster. Pretty much every single mech "can" win in an 8v8 or pug environment if their team was carrying them with 7 god tier or highly competitive mechs. If you have 3+ "workable" mechs and you don't lose, it's because the other team was worse and you really shouldn't feel good about it.
As for the atlas DDC build being left behind, well, I disagree. Even in a PUG with a 300 you can be in the right places at the right times. If you spend 20 seconds shooting without looking at your minimap, or even 10-15 seconds, you mind wind up alone. If you are aware of your team movements you will not be alone in a 300. You have to literally stand still and not realize you should be moving someplace else to wind up out of position.
ED: This game is pretty damn well balanced, almost every mech CAN win with skill considered... But if I wasn't playing people I was better than 99% of the time I would have a lot less mechs to use. In 8v8 where skill is much more directly tested a team can lose simply for not have enough 3Ls and DDCs in their roster. Pretty much every single mech "can" win in an 8v8 or pug environment if their team was carrying them with 7 god tier or highly competitive mechs. If you have 3+ "workable" mechs and you don't lose, it's because the other team was worse and you really shouldn't feel good about it.
Edited by Captain Midnight, 15 December 2012 - 06:07 AM.
#47
Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:08 AM
Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:
Actually piloting a light and calling the shots at the same time is extremely hard and it's like pulling teeth to get someone else in a premade to run a 3L because it is 0% fun. Usually I call strategies at least half as well when I am still alive, so if you see me in a raven, killing me is the worst thing you can do because I can lead my team to victory every time but I cannot always pilot my team to victory.
Yes, you do get a good view of the battlefield, but turning hard left to avoid a salvo that literally WILL kill you if it connects is so stressful that you can't really avoid that salvo and call intricate orders at the same time. For this reason I like to be in an easymode slow going atlas.
Yes, you do get a good view of the battlefield, but turning hard left to avoid a salvo that literally WILL kill you if it connects is so stressful that you can't really avoid that salvo and call intricate orders at the same time. For this reason I like to be in an easymode slow going atlas.
#48
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:29 AM
Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:
Well OV like I said in the 4P section, DHS depends on whether you think DHS are 2.0 in the engine. I personally do not believe they are, thus SHS are the obvious choice. If I did believe that DHS were 2.0 in the engine then DHS would be the obvious choice. It depends purely on the readers opinion of DHS vs. SHS for engine efficiency.
As for the atlas DDC build being left behind, well, I disagree. Even in a PUG with a 300 you can be in the right places at the right times. If you spend 20 seconds shooting without looking at your minimap, or even 10-15 seconds, you mind wind up alone. If you are aware of your team movements you will not be alone in a 300. You have to literally stand still and not realize you should be moving someplace else to wind up out of position.
As for the atlas DDC build being left behind, well, I disagree. Even in a PUG with a 300 you can be in the right places at the right times. If you spend 20 seconds shooting without looking at your minimap, or even 10-15 seconds, you mind wind up alone. If you are aware of your team movements you will not be alone in a 300. You have to literally stand still and not realize you should be moving someplace else to wind up out of position.
You are welcome to your own opinions however you do not get to have your own facts, just get a stopwatch and do the experiment 1.5 mil is a small price to pay for knowledge. An XL on a hunch is imo not good, you will get your side toros focused and they're very easy to hit.
If you're solo dropping the 300 can be too slow, it's totally possible to end up 20kph slower than everything else on your team, if they get spooked and bug out you'll die (everyone rtb's except you for example), I also find I'm often the only person who'll rtb when I'm dropping solo, piloting a 50kph mech lost me a couple of games like this. I would say both are viable though, just that if you're making newb friendly OP builds 50kph is too big a weakness.
Btw I think you're overstating builds over skill to some degree: http://www.twitch.tv...mes/b/347820264 I didn't record all the games I played that night but we continued winning until I left the team has only 2 raven 3ls in for ECM. an Awesome a Dragon a Gauss Cat (me and I suck with gauss) a 36srm Cat and 2 hunch 4ps.
Edited by OVBlueGhost, 15 December 2012 - 06:30 AM.
#49
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:28 AM
I agree with Captain to a point (although he does come across as an over-excited college kid with his presentation).
I agree that the focus on the strongest builds should be the emphasis.... for 8v8 premades.
In the Pub queue, people should be playing what is fun in the long run. This is the only way that the game will attract and retain new blood which is the only way that it will continue to have servers to play on. When people sync drop, or even just solo-drop in the strongest builds to Pub-stomp constantly, they are just killing the moral of newer players or players who are on the fence to begin with.
Long run I think a matchmaking system that takes into account ladder rankings will fix this as those who prefer to Pub stomp in the OP builds will rank up and eventually just fight other OP Pub stompers and all will be fine. Plus, the trial mech players will be much more likely to only play other trial mech players. And those that enjoy the 'sub-optimal' mechs don't have to worry about always being up against D-DCs and 6 srm6 Cats non-stop.
And as an added benefit, when those Pub stompers complain that they are now forced to stick with their OP builds or they will lose rank as they only fight others with OP builds it will be all the nicer.
But for 8v8 premades... I agree, go big or go home.
I agree that the focus on the strongest builds should be the emphasis.... for 8v8 premades.
In the Pub queue, people should be playing what is fun in the long run. This is the only way that the game will attract and retain new blood which is the only way that it will continue to have servers to play on. When people sync drop, or even just solo-drop in the strongest builds to Pub-stomp constantly, they are just killing the moral of newer players or players who are on the fence to begin with.
Long run I think a matchmaking system that takes into account ladder rankings will fix this as those who prefer to Pub stomp in the OP builds will rank up and eventually just fight other OP Pub stompers and all will be fine. Plus, the trial mech players will be much more likely to only play other trial mech players. And those that enjoy the 'sub-optimal' mechs don't have to worry about always being up against D-DCs and 6 srm6 Cats non-stop.
And as an added benefit, when those Pub stompers complain that they are now forced to stick with their OP builds or they will lose rank as they only fight others with OP builds it will be all the nicer.
But for 8v8 premades... I agree, go big or go home.
#50
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:24 AM
I guess I have a question, or two.
How would a drop weight effect the meta game in your view then?
and
Should 8s have weight limits, or is it something that should be saved for CW?
How would a drop weight effect the meta game in your view then?
and
Should 8s have weight limits, or is it something that should be saved for CW?
#51
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:26 AM
Id rather not care as stat padding wasnt the game I was interested in when I bought in.
#52
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:51 AM
GalaxyBluestar, on 14 December 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:
saddly it's what the people/expoitors want. if you think people came here {since open beta} to test and develope a good all round game where every piece of mech, weapon and equipment gave everyone a fair chance at winning in many stunning, stratigic and exciting ways... your wrong.
Sadly, this is the reality. The majority of players don't care about any of that or the quality of the game itself. They just want to take a few cookie cutter copy/paste weapon builds and go pewpew at 300m in a boxing ring. They don't want to be challenged or have actual viable diversity in the game. They just want a few good variants/weapons, and that's it. Never mind all the other useless stuff in the game. The rest is all window dressing; things to make the game look more strategic or deeper than it really is. This game was originally aiming to be better than that... well... now, it no longer is. They've proved it. Now they're just catering it to the bottom of the barrel, those people with <75 IQ, just because they're the majority. This may work for games/companies with an already well established fanbase(CoD/Activision, WoW/Blizzard, etc), but it won't work for a brand new F2P title. Even the ones loving this horrible patch will soon tire with what you've done to the game just to please them.
#53
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:58 AM
I lold at some of those builds...only because it works for you doesnt make them in any way op.
Edited by Budor, 15 December 2012 - 09:06 AM.
#54
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:19 AM
Centurions?
Worst mech in the game.
For anyone that thinks their centurion is good, I will take any mech you wish me to run, we'll sync drop until we get a game against each other and I will tear it apart. Even in a commando.
Worst mech in the game.
For anyone that thinks their centurion is good, I will take any mech you wish me to run, we'll sync drop until we get a game against each other and I will tear it apart. Even in a commando.
#55
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:30 PM
I see that modesty has taken a long walk off a short pier in this thread... don't forget, Internet Robots are Serious Business!
The build comments are sadly true in many ways. High-alpha optimized builds will be the order of the day, and that means that 8v8 is always going to suck when you get to competitive levels. Major suckage. High-alpha mechs means the game plays like a FPS... ewww.
But that's OK. Those who like it can play that way, and the vast majority of players don't have to... we can mix things up and drop all manner of fun, interesting builds because hey... why not? It's nice that the Elo system they have planned should allow many different playstyles to exist at the same time.
The build comments are sadly true in many ways. High-alpha optimized builds will be the order of the day, and that means that 8v8 is always going to suck when you get to competitive levels. Major suckage. High-alpha mechs means the game plays like a FPS... ewww.
But that's OK. Those who like it can play that way, and the vast majority of players don't have to... we can mix things up and drop all manner of fun, interesting builds because hey... why not? It's nice that the Elo system they have planned should allow many different playstyles to exist at the same time.
#56
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:45 PM
Mazgazine1, on 15 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:
Wow XL engines on Cats and Hunchies, someone wants to die fast lol.
I have a Hunch 4p 6 MLs, DHS, Endo and standard 245, all alpha strikes, all the time. Survive a lot of damage, and dish out a ton on the go.
I have a Hunch 4p 6 MLs, DHS, Endo and standard 245, all alpha strikes, all the time. Survive a lot of damage, and dish out a ton on the go.
Nothing wrong with XL on catapults, or cataphracts for the matter (they have tiny side torsos).
Wouldn't ever run one on one of my hunchbacks though.
Edited by One Medic Army, 15 December 2012 - 01:46 PM.
#57
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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:19 AM
Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:
Well, some of us have less unbearable personalities than you do, and have 8 man teams to run with. Long story short, we're talking about me here. I run 8s alllll the time, and I gotta tell ya, "personal preference" doesn't make a centurion viable. When I beat a team with a bunch of atlases I say "gg noobs", when I beat a team with even a single centurion I say "sorry about all your mediums" or something similar, because I am sorry, because it wasn't close. My team runs 2-3 raven 3Ls, 3-4 Atlas DDCs, and 1-2 fast heavy snipers. If the other team had a medium and my team lost I'd start booting people from my team because their skill level was sooooo far below what premade 8s require.
When that "no-pay exploit" goes away I'll be crying about how artemis is P2W (Which it is as currently implemented, it's just that it's free so no one cares, if the price is zero Pay2Win isn't really P2W). Furthermore, I'll be working on how to minmax whatever the new meta is, because right now I've got the current meta down and if I could pick my best 8 friends and force them to use their best 8 mechs I would lose ZERO games. I am the best mechwarrior on the best team in this entire game right now, and if you think otherwise challenge my team to an 8v8 and we'll show you up. I am not trying to wag my epeen but if you think you know better, well I doubt it, and I'd love to see you or anyone try to prove me wrong. I am trying my best to help the community here but if blowhards want to call me out I am waaaaay more than just down, and we will 8v8 on stream in front of god and everybody and we will see who has the better opinion.
If you and your team had been that great you would have joined the Run Hot or Die tourney, you didnt. so go shake your miniscule epeen in a place where it might get noticed. Since you and your team cant play RHOD you and your epeen can crawl off and die.
#58
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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:47 AM
GalaxyBluestar, on 14 December 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:
saddly it's what the people/expoitors want. if you think people came here {since open beta} to test and develope a good all round game where every piece of mech, weapon and equipment gave everyone a fair chance at winning in many stunning, stratigic and exciting ways... your wrong.
Well considering there is no wipe before live, we're not allowed to actually test things and input is being patently ignored by the devs this game is Beta in name only. People are not trying to test anymore because we aren't treated like testers, they're playing the game, and some have the audacity to play to win.
#59
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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:01 AM
I still like my old 4SP... my most successful Hunchback at the basic tier.
Large Pulse, Medium Pulse, 2 SSRMs. Over Basic exp, it scored 21 kills, just less than the Commando 2D with 3x Streaks and a Small Laser (pre-ECM there) at 22 kills, and equal with my Snipgon-1N with it's Gauss/ER Large combo.
Kill breakdown for the two mechs:
HBK-4SP = 3 Commando, a Raven, 3 Centurion, a Cicada, 5 Hunchbacks, 4 Cataphracts, a Catapult, 2 Dragons and an Atlas.
DRG-1N = 2 Jenner, 3 Raven, 2 Centurion, a Hunchback, 3 Cataphract, 5 Catapult, 2 Dragons, 3 Atlai and an Awesome.
As you can see, those two are both respectable builds, just not common ones. Oh, and don't try looking at your statistics for what mechs you kill, I've actually kept lists for each mech at it's last finished stage, and then start to overwrite the data as I progress into Elite and Master.
Large Pulse, Medium Pulse, 2 SSRMs. Over Basic exp, it scored 21 kills, just less than the Commando 2D with 3x Streaks and a Small Laser (pre-ECM there) at 22 kills, and equal with my Snipgon-1N with it's Gauss/ER Large combo.
Kill breakdown for the two mechs:
HBK-4SP = 3 Commando, a Raven, 3 Centurion, a Cicada, 5 Hunchbacks, 4 Cataphracts, a Catapult, 2 Dragons and an Atlas.
DRG-1N = 2 Jenner, 3 Raven, 2 Centurion, a Hunchback, 3 Cataphract, 5 Catapult, 2 Dragons, 3 Atlai and an Awesome.
As you can see, those two are both respectable builds, just not common ones. Oh, and don't try looking at your statistics for what mechs you kill, I've actually kept lists for each mech at it's last finished stage, and then start to overwrite the data as I progress into Elite and Master.
#60
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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:06 AM
@ the D-DC build
You should try to fit a std 350 and upgrade to dhs and endosteel (if you got critslots free). Only use internal heatsinks and the ones you can fit inside engines.
You should try to fit a std 350 and upgrade to dhs and endosteel (if you got critslots free). Only use internal heatsinks and the ones you can fit inside engines.
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