231 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Kaziganthi, on 15 December 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

If your going to do these polls, you need to seperate LRMs from SSRMs as they are two completely different weapon systems. One is still overpowered, especially when combined with ECM as it can counter other ECM. The other is fine, but when facing ECM, is about as usefull as a knife in a gunfght, as by the time you get close enough to counter you have a 20m window to lock and fire.

He actually did separate them in the poll.
Otherwise I agree with you, LRMs have been hammered recently, more as collateral damage than anything else.

[BigJim]

Vernius Ix, on 15 December 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

I run two SRM six's on mine. Your premise is faulty, your conclusions are based on your emotional feeling rather than on the hard data.

Try again please

In all fairness then, I wouldn't be asking you to play scout in any competitive drops with that mech.
It might be a fun mech to PUG in, but I need to you drop enemy Lights, and since you won't be doing that with std SRMs, it's of no use in a real drop.
The enemy Lights on the other hand, would have a field day with your build. For a short time anyway.

The analogy earlier in the thread with the Jenner is an apt one.
Yes, it's possible, sometimes, for a laser Jenner or a Cicada to beat a streak armed Raven.
Sometimes. If the Raven pilot sucks, and the wind is behind you. On a good day.
But it's rare, so rare as to not be a competitive option as the game exists right now.

As abrasive as the OP can be, he's utterly right in that premise, the emotional response actually comes from people who wish to defend their preferred build rather than the one that is objectively better at doing it's job.
I hesitate to use the term Snowflake build, but that's what a dual 6-pack Light mech is, really.

Trust me, I prefer the Jenner-F and any Cicada over the sheisty womble-faced Raven any day, but atm, the Rav-3L w/Streaks is just better.
It can use streaks, and other Lights (unless packing ECM) can't use them back.

BoomDog, on 15 December 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

SSRMs= OP because they always hit torso, spread damage all over and problem solved.

I don't know, I wouldn't be so sure mate.
Spread damage and you're hitting mainly legs and side torsos.
Legs - Obvious weak point on any Light.
Side Torso - even more so.

Since Lights run XLs, it'll only take a few streaks to clip that side torso to make it go pop, or a few to the leg in order to make it game over for the non-streak Light mech.
Spreading the damage might draw the engagement out a little bit, it'll take a few more magic missiles, but it will not change the nature of the fight.

The Light who's carrying those streaks will win, and the one who isn't will lose. It will happen, it'll just take slightly (only slightly) longer.
It's inevitable Mr Anderson.

Liberty, on 15 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Greetings,

Okay, I pilot both Jenners and Ravens.

Ok, a few points here to mull-over.

Quote

The Raven use to consistently lose to the Jenner and now that it can actually beat one does not mean it is OP.

Correct, and I don't belive anyone is saying the Raven per-se is OP, nor even that Streaks are terrible - Merely that the importance of streaks is what makes ECM such a big deal.

If streaks were not such a massive deal, ECM (the thing that allows or denies you thier use) wouldn't be a big deal either.

Quote

That just means the Jenner is not not the only viable light anymore.

I would say it stopped being a viable choice the day ECM came out.
To use the example above again, I would not be asking you or anyone to bring a Jenner to a serious team-v-team drop, because those enemy Ravens will peck you to death, and you won't be able to do anything about it.
The difference between the two mechs is that the Rav can use it's streaks, and the Jenner can't, so it's useless.

However it's not ECM per-se at the root of that problem, the problem is the streaks themselves are so damned important..
If the streaks were not so important, then it wouldn't matter that my Rav has ECM and your Jenner doesn't - it would just be a tactical difference between the two options.

As it stands now, the Jenner just isn't a serious option at all.
And that's the pity.

Quote

It still has more energy hard points so if your trying to out streak a ECM 3Lyou are going to lose. Jenner's have advantages like jumping over terrain and are better suited than Ravens on certain maps.

Jump-jets or no, a match won't be won with jumpies, and those jets will not save you when my Raven sniffs your Jenner's blood.

The Jenner has more energy hardpoints (arm mounted for more aiming potential) and the same number of streak hardpoints - On paper it's by far the more powerful mech offensively, but it just isn't, because the only weapons worth a damn on a Light are streaks.
This just reiterates the same point in different words.

Quote

The other two Ravens in comparison are horrible with slower engine speeds and they can't even mount ECM to make up for it.

True, but of no relevance here.
Those other two variance, the 2X & 4X are just toy mechs anyhow, a short lay-over on the way to mastering the only Raven that counts, the one with ECM and two Streak hardpoints.


End of the day, the Rav-3L is the de-facto Light mech, and that's because of streaks.
It can mount them, and deny their use to others.

You are all focussing on ECM because it's newer, but it's not the underlying cause.
If you reduce the importance of one (Srk) then the other (ECM) loses it's power over you.
The OP brought this to the fore, but I fear he is pi**ing in the wind trying to get anyone to understand.

Edited by BigJim, 15 December 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Kaziganthi]

One Medic Army, on 15 December 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

He actually did separate them in the poll.
Otherwise I agree with you, LRMs have been hammered recently, more as collateral damage than anything else.

But not much in the great wall of text. He just started on about SSRms from what I read.

[8RoundsRapid]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

If you want to fight a real war go out into the forest and go kill some civilians rambo, the rest of us want to play mechwarrior. Mechwarrior isn't realistic, it's just Mechwarrior. Nothing about this game, NOTHING, is realistic. Nothing whatsoever. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. This game is not realistic. This is not a game based on realism.

You are not realistic either. And where the F did you get the idea that he said he wanted to fight a real war? LOL you are the biggest hyopocrite I've read on this board, and YOU are the one that exemplifies all that is wrong w/ MWO and this forum community.

[B0NES]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

If aiming your guns = hawken then bring it on baby...

Please, go play hawken. I beg you. this game will be better off.

[Kell Commander]

Naeron66, on 15 December 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

The problem is they kept the positives of streaks (never missing) but lost the balancing factor (random locations). In MWO Streaks would be ok IF each launcher targeted a random location on the mech and went for that.

The problems with LRMs is that they upped the effectiveness of the launchers themselves. The way it should work is that if you fire 5 LRMs then only 3 should hit as the start point. Artemis should add 1 and NARC or TAG should add another 1. And spread the damage around randomly as it should be. In that case LRMs would be about right in environments without ECM.

Change ECM to reduce maximum lock on range and increase lock on time and then LRMs and Streaks would be ok. PGI should address the builds like streak cats only if the changes above do not balance things out. Easiest way would be to limit the total number of Lock on weapons a mech can carry (call it a limit of the targetting systems), then they can add a module to increase that number by 1 (and I would expect Clans would get 1 higher anyway).

I think PGI is implementing what you siad about SSRM's next patch and that works too.

I would not at all be opposed to your idea with LRM's despite that I think they are fine now.

I definitely like the idea of addressing boating, but I don't know how they would be able to do it. Also, taking away the ability tio boat weapons would go against a lot of cannon variants.

One Medic Army, on 15 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well, according to that video streaks are still doing it wrong. They're better than any other weapons system of equivalent weight while requiring less skill, whereas they should be worse than any weapons system of equivalent weight while needing less skill.
Not much worse, but still worse.

The whole point of the Streak SRM launcher is it is SUPPOSED to be better than a normal SRM launcher of the same size. It weighs more and the ammo costs more, but the weapon itself is a complete upgrade.

[Torqueware]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

Anyone who doubts streaks are overpowered should consider, does anyone even CONSIDER putting something something besides SSRM2 in their ravens? I'm sorry was that a no? Speak up louder, was that a NO I WANT TO WIN I USE SSRM2 IN MY RAVEN!!!!

If streaks weren't OP then the ECM wouldn't matter and the Jenner D that is the same mech as a 3L except with jumpjets and an additional laser hardpoint and faster would STILL be better than the Raven. But it isn't. It's worse and not by a little tiny bit, but by such a wide chasm that it is unusably bad.

I think it's cute people think LOWS are fine but ECM is the problem...

Pro ravens don't consider ssrms because they lack ARMS!

Commandos roll srms all the time in their arms because they can aim with more than their FACE (heavy-hunter variants).

Edited by Torqueware, 15 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[Orzorn]

BigJim, on 15 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

You are all focussing on ECM because it's newer, but it's not the underlying cause.

How can you say that Raven's are the defacto light mech, but then say it isn't because of ECM?

ECM making streaks useless is the REASON its the defacto light mech (along with the fact that its 10 tons heavier than a Commando).

If ECM actually did what its supposed to, and not whatever extra junk the devs lumped onto it for whatever reason, then SSRMs wouldn't be so exclusive. They're almost entirely limited to ECM users right now because of that.

Not to mention the apparent bug that makes ECM disruption useless if there's more than one ECM around:
http://mwomercs.com/...g-disrupt-mode/

[Joseph Mallan]

Orzorn, on 15 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

How can you say that Raven's are the defacto light mech, but then say it isn't because of ECM?

ECM making streaks useless is the REASON its the defacto light mech (along with the fact that its 10 tons heavier than a Commando).

If ECM actually did what its supposed to, and not whatever extra junk the devs lumped onto it for whatever reason, then SSRMs wouldn't be so exclusive. They're almost entirely limited to ECM users right now because of that.

Not to mention the apparent bug that makes ECM disruption useless if there's more than one ECM around:
http://mwomercs.com/...g-disrupt-mode/

Remember we are using Guardian ECM so as such we should still have Streaks function, Only Angel ECM Nerfs Streaks to being Dumb Fire SRMs again.

[Orzorn]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Remember we are using Guardian ECM so as such we should still have Streaks function, Only Angel ECM Nerfs Streaks to being Dumb Fire SRMs again.

Why did you tell me what I was already saying?

[SpiralRazor]

ECM is most definitely the problem because its effecting:

Streak launchers of all types

LRM launchers of all types

Modules and advanced sensors

Direct Fire weapons when you cant tell if your targeting an enemy or friendly.

Invalidating many, many mech chassis.



Truly this is the worst implementation of stealth that ive ever seen in any video game.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 15 December 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[shabowie]

Kell Commander, on 15 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

The whole point of the Streak SRM launcher is it is SUPPOSED to be better than a normal SRM launcher of the same size. It weighs more and the ammo costs more, but the weapon itself is a complete upgrade.

The streak is pretty much the most efficient weapon period right now because of the damage buff and always hitting. Combining that in an ECM mech that can serve to facilitate your use of it and take away the opponents use of it is even more screwed up.

When you say it's "supposed" to do something, do you mean in TT? Because in TT if you missed your attack roll with it it didn't fire. Maybe they should double the cool down to reflect the misses or make drastic adjustments to its lockon (must keep reticle in a very small area to maintain lock, must relock for every volley, increase lock time) to reflect the way it's "supposed" to be more accurately. All I want is the best weapon for light mechs and for use against light mechs in the game to take some skill and be balanced somewhere below what a skilled pilot could produce with lasers, ballistics and SRMs since its a fire and forget noob tube style weapon.

Edited by shabowie, 15 December 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Karr285]

so streaks are not a problem at all? Really? I kinda fear for all of you saying that. Now I am going to use the Clan mechs as a point here (assuming the devs dont find a brand new amazing counter for streaks in the time before they arrive) The Vulture has a varient, 6 SRM6 , Er PPC and a LB 5-XAC, well Drop the AC and poof 6 SSRM6 with a ppc or lasers whatever and goes 90kph without speed tweek...

who wants to bet this mech will be a crazy FOTM mech and will utterly dominate every game. a 90 damage alpha from missiles (not even including the other weapons) with a 100% hit rate... good bye every IS mech that steps on the field. And if PPC's get their EMP ability and it effects ECM not even lights with it will be safe from even 1 of these.

The a1 with 6 SRM6 doesnt even hit every missile and has to be ontop of you to hit most of them, this will be the A1, but faster, stronger and will kill you at 360M (IS streaks are 75% the range of Clan) without really even aiming.

Edited by Karr285, 15 December 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Kell Commander, on 15 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

The whole point of the Streak SRM launcher is it is SUPPOSED to be better than a normal SRM launcher of the same size. It weighs more and the ammo costs more, but the weapon itself is a complete upgrade.

It's supposed to save you ammo/heat, for an extra 50% weight. It's not supposed to be auto-hit every round, it's just supposed to only use ammo/gain heat when you hit.

A SSRM2 is not supposed to be roughly equivalent to an SRM6 or Artemis SRM4 in effective firepower.

[BigJim]

Orzorn, on 15 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

How can you say that Raven's are the defacto light mech, but then say it isn't because of ECM?

ECM making streaks useless is the REASON its the defacto light mech


If ECM actually did what its supposed to, and not whatever extra junk the devs lumped onto it for whatever reason, then SSRMs wouldn't be so exclusive. They're almost entirely limited to ECM users right now because of that.

Your reasoning is entirely backward, and you leap to the wrong conclusion.

Consider; You say that the Raven w/ECM is so good is because it makes Streaks useless, while being able to use it's own (like I said very clearly in my first post).

Well, who would care about that, if streaks weren't all-powerful to begin with?
If streaks were not god missiles, then it wouldn't matter if ECM negates them or not.
Ergo, it's the streak that is too powerful, or unbalanced, or whatever QQish label you wish to apply to it, not the ECM itself.

ECM would go back to being a stealth utility item, not the most effective combat tool in the game.


You then go on to say that ECM didn't do bla-bla-bla, it would make streaks open for more people to use, yippee! Streaks for all!
Yay for proliferation, not moderation!

Rather than giving everybody silly weapons, make the single weapon more sensible.
Much better solution.

Quote

Not to mention the apparent bug that makes ECM disruption useless if there's more than one ECM around:
http://mwomercs.com/...g-disrupt-mode/

Noted, but hardly a big issue.
Easy to work out why.

One ECM-Light vs 2x enemy ECM-Lights isn't going to last a minute in a fight anyway.

Edited by BigJim, 15 December 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Sug]

Doesn't AMS in TT hit streaks and srms?

[One Medic Army]

Reasons people have given to nerf ECM:

Significantly hinders usage of LRMs
Significantly hinders usage of SSRMs for non-ECM mechs
Blocks minimap and targeting info

1 I'll call valid, there are no other indirect fire long-range weapons. I'd not be adverse to ECM ****-blocking LRMs less
2 My position has been previously stated.
3 Is the one that I personally agree with.

Edited by One Medic Army, 15 December 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Zero Neutral]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

(LOWS = lock on weapon system, SSRM and LRM specifically and exclusively)

First and foremost, ECM breaks the game because it means one side of the game (the team with more ECM) can use OP streak missiles and the other team can't. If one side has 3 lights and the other side has 2 lights, skill plays a big role. If one side has 3 lights with streaks and ECM and the other side has 2 lights with streaks and ECM skill plays NO ROLE WHATSOEVER and the team with 3 and streaks wins automatically.

A lot of people have a problem with ECM, they say stuff like "ECM is so OP!" or "ECM makes this game stupid, I don't have fun anymore".

Some of these people are saying that because they PUG 100% of the time and with ECM it makes it really hard to have fun in a PUG (true). MOST of these people say it because they use SSRM2s and LRMs (known as LOWS, or lock on weapon systems).

Now that ECM pretty much obsoletes those weapons, we have a really fun and strategic direct fire and scouting game in 8v8. Very skillful, very fun. But this game isn't gonna survive on 8 mans, it's gonna survive on PUG games. PUGs right now are screwed by ECM. No one can see a target to focus even if they wanted to, it's not just that people are bad it's a lack of comms... How are you supposed to shoot the guy in E8 if you're in E4 and your minimap doesn't show friend OR foe?? It's just stupid. A *lot* of capture rushes by 4 man premades as well.... PUGs just suck in the ECM environment, just like in the LOWS environment where you knew who to shoot but you dies in less than ten seconds when the LRMs started coming in or you walked around a corner and oh whattya know an A1 with streaks.

I think the problem is that the developers intentionally made LOWS ridiculously overpowered for the user and instead decided the skill ought to lie in the team makeup and team play aspects, IE. ECM. What they failed to realize was that no one wants to play LOWS vs. ECM: Online. LOWS and ECM *BOTH* need a huge nerf so that PUG games aren't dominated by either. Before ECM the team with more LOWS won by default, now the team with more ECM wins by default... It definitely isn't worse than before, but it is only a smidgeon better. If ECM was less of a dominant choice, and LOWS were less of a dominant choice, this game would be a lot better.

I think streaks should generate 25-100% more heat, and hit both legs and arms. LRMs should deal 25-75% less damage and fly much faster, but not re-acquire targets if a broken lock is re-acquired. ECM should EITHER shorten lock ranges, OR block transmit data. Maybe counter mode could block transmit data and disrupt mode could block targeting range? By transmit data what I mean is "my friend sees the enemy and locks him, therefore I can target and lock him". Currently ECM disables both of those functions. ECM definitely has some room because of the multiple modes to make them more distinct.

Another option is to make the beagle active probe disable the r-target range reductions but NOT fix the locking blocking. This keeps LOWS from being used at long range without a TAG but lets people r-target to call "alpha primary!" or whatever.

Basically nothing should win the game by itself. Before LOWS won the game by themselves, now ECM wins the game by themselves. We need the game to be less dominated by single aspects and more dominated by skill. Everyone who said LOWS deserve to be OP because this is a "simulator" need to shut their mouths because ECM is just as stupid as LOWS and anyone who blindly defends either is stupid. ECM is "simulator" just the same way LOWS are simulator, in that neither are simulator and you are blind to game balance if you think "simulator" means imbalance in a competitive environment is acceptable.

I'd rather have ECM than have LOWS if it were a choice and I crusaded HARD against LOWS in the past, but I really want the game to be dominated by neither than by either. Keep in mind that when the clans come we could have up to SSRM6, and mechs with up to 7-8 missile hardpoints. Do you think the A1 with SSRM6s would be balanced? Even a little? Do you think that mechs that in canon have 8 LRM15s will work in MWO? I don't want people to boat, but not by nerfing boating but by nerfing weapons so that boating just simply is not as competitive as NOT boating. I want diverse and fun builds to be the competitive way to play.

EDIT: Adding in my mechs tierlist right now so people can think about that as well...

MECH TIERS

S - God tier (stack these guys to win cheesy)

Atlas DDC (Streaks + Whatever), Raven 3L (Streaks), Catapult A1 (SRM6+Artemis), Cataphract 1X (5xLL), Cataphract 3D (4xML, 2xGauss, JJ), Catapult K2 (2xGauss/AC20)


A - Highly Competitive

Commando 2D (streaks), Cicada 3M (MPL/ML), Hunchback 4P (9ML), Atlas D/RS, Ilya Muromets (3xUAC5/AC10), HBK-4SP, Dragon 1C (4xLL, Endo, DHS, XL), Catapult C1, Dragon 5N (3xAC2), Cataphract 4X (4xAC2/AC5).


B - Workable

Catapult C4, Cataphract 2X, Jenner D (Such a fall from grace), Jenner F (Barely even acceptable now as well),

F - No way jose

Jenner K, Dragon 1N, Commandos, Ravens, Hunchbacks/Centurions, Cicadas, Awesomes.

WEAPONS

S - God tier

Streaks (OP, if you can use 'em), Artemis SRM4/6 (Short range but OP damage), Gauss (ideal alpha/dps), AC10 (great alpha/dps), Medium Laser (ideal mix of range, damage, and heat), Large Laser (Great mix of range, damage, and heat)

A - Highly Competitive

UAC5 (Jams, but works great when boated), AC20 (sick alpha, high heat), AC2 (high heat high dps), Medium Pulse Laser (nice DPS/heat) , PPCs (high heat high alpha),

B - Workable

LRMs (too hard to land, but good damage), non-artemis SRMs (not enough range), AC5 (not enough dps), LBX10 (not enough range), ER Large Laser (too hot), Large Pulse Laser (too hot, not enough range), Small laser (not enough range), Small Pulse Laser (not enough range), ER PPCS (too hot).

Read:

Information Warfare Dev Blog

The system is not complete yet please stop whining offering criticism on an incomplete system, of which you have no idea what the benefits of using ECM would be.

Edited by Zero Neutral, 15 December 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[Desirsar]

I see the poll isn't exactly going your way. I still like two suggestions I've seen in this forum : A single ECCM should counter all ECM in range, ECM should not affect locking by a mech itself inside the bubble (or be negated by BAP, only inside the bubble), and LRMs should have their tabletop direct fire mode.

[Kaziganthi]

Zero Neutral, on 15 December 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Read:

Information Warfare Dev Blog

The system is not complete yet please stop whining offering criticism on an incomplete system, of which you have no idea what the benefits of using ECM would be.

And maybe you should stop and read the date on that post....it's 12 months old.

I'll direct you to another post thats a lot less older regarding ECM.

http://www.pcgamer.c...t-mode-release/