231 replies to this topic

[Krondor]

Some people coming to MWO are expecting every build to be equally effective against every other build. This game doesn't work that way and was never intended to work that way. Any mech that boats anything is a niche mech that has some pretty severe vulnerabilities. Don't blame the game if you can't comprehend them.

SRM/SSRM mechs have a maximum range of 270 meters.Are people seriously saying they don't see an exploitable vulnerability there? REALLY?

Also, light mechs can't boat anything. 3 of one weapon is not "boating".

Kreisel, on 30 December 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

ECM absolutely DOES have an effect and Role even without hampering missile fire. Visual ease of picking out targets at long range, Communication, identification of mechs, weapons systems, damaged locations, transmitting a foes location on the minimap, location of allies and knowing if they are in trouble are not. You get all that for 1.5 Tons. That's a major benefit for only an investment of 1.5 tons. I was excited about and looking forward to using ECM back before I knew everything it does now. Even if it was limited to what it did in TT I would take it and it would be worth it. What we have now goes beyond information warfare into over powered, and as someone who already piloted Ravens and was looking forward to a dynamic information warfare role... it's just too much.

SRM6 A1 Catapults were scary powerful before Streakcats got put in, and they still do massive amounts of damage. My Max armor Raven has had it's side torso blown entirely off by one with single volley. It was the shaking that made Streakcats overpowered, once that got balanced out they fell more in line with what they should be, Hunters of lights and fast movers. But if you want to be a threat to something with lots of armor, SRM6 especially with Artemis are the way to go. My L3 Raven actually Packs 2 SRM6+Artemis and does a tremendous amount of damage to higher tonnage mechs, I hunt and get most my kills on heavies and assaults with it, though other light mechs give me a problem. That's balanced, I built myself to be a big danger to one class of mechs and it creates a weakness against another. It creates a nitch for each kind of weapon.

You know what the counter is to SSRM2: AMS!!!! if you keep enough distance (~200) it will shoot down an entire SSRM2 shot before it reaches you, every time. I've had Streakcats accuse my lights of hacking because I had AMS. Also AMS DOES help a lot vs LRM, sure it doesn't nullify an LRM 20, but it shouldn't, it's only 1.5 tons with ammo and stacking them does make it more effective. Pre-ECM teams used to stack together for AMS overlap. There are Mechs variants which 'big thing' is having 2 AMS slots and ECM Variants currently outclasses them in how good it is reducing the threat of missiles in addition to all their other advantages.

Yes, lock on weapons are powerful, and 1 team being able to rain support fire on the other without fear of reprisal is unfair. But what that really means is the other team lacks the ability to perform one of battlefield roles and likely atleast 1 mech is being locked out of affectingly fighting back, this doesn't make LRM overpowered... it makes the players who took them on the other team have wasted tonnage, possibly it makes some mechs on the other team completely unable to attack, and I think everyone knows, if 1 team has more mechs actually effectively fighting in the match, that team almost always wins.

And even without ECM there were counters to LRM, scout harassment, getting up close and personal under 180, sticking to cover, AMS, forcing them to fall back and abandon locks by hitting them with direct fire/snipers.

This dude here. He gets it.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

While a Commando 2D may not be a Streak Cat, mounting 3 S-SRM2's; ECM and nothing else makes it a boat IMO. And you; Kreisel and I all get the real point. Pilots adapt to the situation, whiners can't, so they scream nerf.

I've never been a big fan of single-player campaigns that are really nothing more than tutorials for the multi-player game, but an actual tutorial truly is needed here.

[Krondor]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

While a Commando 2D may not be a Streak Cat, mounting 3 S-SRM2's; ECM and nothing else makes it a boat IMO

Regardless of whether or not that's a "boat" (semantics here, no real impact for purposes of this post), the real problem is that ECM eliminates the only counter to light mechs with the lagshield.

Quote

I've never been a big fan of single-player campaigns that are really nothing more than tutorials for the multi-player game, but an actual tutorial truly is needed here.

Agreed. Or at least something that bashes into people's head that this game isn't Hawken or COD -it's a game of (fictional) mechanized warfare.

Edited by Krondor, 30 December 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[J0anna]

The ONLY change I would make to ECM is that it prevents ALL target locks (friendly and enemy). That removes streaks from the light vs light equation. As well as the raining down LRM's while an ECM light runs around.

Running into a multiple LRM barrage in BT normally results in very heavy damage. It's something you try to avoid at all costs.

And really, wouldn't most of your arguments go away if we had 'in-game' voice comms? Fix the net code, and add in-game voice, and the game will change drastically. Right now, ecm lights rule the day, but pgi is dedicated to making all mechs viable, balance will come.

But alas, this requires patience, since fixing yellow/black screen, game freezes, lag issues, 4fps bug, desyncing on drop, and other problems that (at times) make the game unplayable would have a higher priorityto me.

[AlexWildeagle]

of course ECM is OP vs. TT. It has to be, LRM and streakcats are out of control.

Add to that to prolong the battle they doubled armor values and reduced direct fire damage BUT did almost nothing to missile weapons. So you have folks cramming their loadouts with missiles and almost nothing else and this is causing an imbalance that ECM tries to balance out. And in premade groups its great but for PUGs you still have missile dominance and most the time no ECM to counter. Best I can figure its about 50/50 if I drop with someone who has ECM. Yes, I know as a PUG I should be dropiing in a light mech with ECM but I just enjoy my phract too much.

[Victor Morson]

From a competitive standpoint, the anti-lock systems are barely a road bump.

The inability to call focused fire when in an ECM bubble, however, is a massive issue that mandates we bring absolutely as much ECM as we can to a fight. That's why it needs a nerf - there need to be more effective counters.

[shotokan5]

I do understand what the problems are. ECM is a joke. I can come right up behind you and kill you without it. ECM is the most overrated piece of equipment that is ok and should be left alone. We have done to much nerfing as it is. Sorry, every time people can not adapt to something they cry bloody murder and you know what get their way. I don't like that the LRM missile time to lock has been made so long but one has to adapt and change not just complain. Cap I understand how you might not like some things as, example; nerf the gauss and then take its armor away so you can sneeze and you can't use it. The AC weapons after a rocky start seem to be getting there. The A/C 20 they cut it power but made it more serveable which personally I am very welcome to except. Again on the ECM I have seen teams of ECM mechs and in game get swatted like fly's. Compromise and adapting to change is what makes a beta work and after all it is a beta. It far from being released I hope or it would get squashed like the light mechs I wish I could step on in battle sometimes.

[Felix]

Victor Morson, on 30 December 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

From a competitive standpoint, the anti-lock systems are barely a road bump.

The inability to call focused fire when in an ECM bubble, however, is a massive issue that mandates we bring absolutely as much ECM as we can to a fight. That's why it needs a nerf - there need to be more effective counters.

Not to mention the team kill issues that arise.

Then again, I always memorize my teams ECM mechs at the start of a match, always good to make sure they get a few rounds in the back in a furball

[The_Desert_Tiger]

I cannot say I agree with everything you said Captain Midnight, but I cannot disagree with all of it either. ECM/LOWS are a tough balance cookie. The question with all these systems comes down to why? Why should I bring X when I can use Y? If Y is objectively better then you would be at a disadvantage to use X. That's rational thinking. The ideal situation is when you have different reasons for different builds/choices. We take Z because it's strong against Y, but we will be at a slight disadvantage if they use X, and to some limited degree we have that.

But as it has been brought up ECM did change the game, and not really for the better. It put the burden of knowledge to high on the PUG side and the over reliance on 8 mans to carry them. If the amount of effort to counter X is to great then why wouldn't you use X? What real disadvantages do all the ECM capable mechs have vs those who don't?

An idea I had while reading this thread and honestly it is just a thought is what I think would help greatly balance the situation or at least be test worthy is to have a lock on/lock off mode for LRMs and Streaks. Allow them to be direct fire but with a few tweaks. For one their damage would have to be slightly under what their other default direct fire weapons (SRMs) in either mode. This presents a choice to the player so when they can lock on they get the advantage of the weapon (nearly promised damage) but they will not out shine their competition. I would also submit to remove the min range on LRMS (or any weapon, PPC looking at you!) and instead put in a damage penalty when used below that range, say 50% damage and prevent them from getting locks below that range.

Coupled with a indirect fire penalty (greater spread) you then allow other tweaks (TAG providing better grouping, Artemis Faster Locks/Better Grouping ect). For ECM it still provides the counter intelligence feel (as those pilots would have to rely on direct fire rather than locks) while not making it the end all piece of gear.

A good LRM pilot would be able to still use their weapons but they would have to make sure they are positioned right, take aim, ect. A good ECM user won't have the blanket of security but would still be able to do the role assigned to them with a bit more risk. It make skill become a factor again.

As for ECM overall I do feel their are some tweaks to be made but honestly I cannot think of any hardcore solution right now that won't either make the equipment useless or just won't fix it's problems. I will think more on it.

Thank you for your time and the discussion.

[Dagger6T6]

i have said from day one that Streaks need to acquire a lock each time they are fired...

it should have never been implemented as a lock and continuous fire...

this would have stopped all the chain firing of streaks, and it would have made a streak boat more manageable... once the streaks fire then the lock needs to be reacquired...

as the lock is now... once i get a streak lock i don't even have to keep the reticule on the target the whole time... i can let it wander as long as i can swipe the reticule back over the target within a few seconds

[Pkunk]

I agree with the people who say better netcode will fix this. You don't hear people whining that the D-DC wins from other atlasses because it has streaks.. Or that an SP4 shoots the **** out of an CTF-1X because it has streaks.. That is because you can shoot it with everything else too. But not lights.. those are nigh impossible to hit. If the netcode will improve to the rate that you can track your laser on a light everything changes..

Ssrm are only "op" because the are the only thing sure to hit a light. They have too low dps to be OP. That being said I do think they can be nerfed a bit in making the locking a bit more difficult

[Captain Midnight]

It's less about balance and more about the desired metagame. Right now every game is ECM vs. ECM and the team that winds up with an edge (especially more light mechs with ECM) wins by a landslide in PUG games because their team gets to use missiles and the other team doesn't, and missiles are so OP that that is all it takes to win.

If missiles weren't an automatic win against teams that do not have missiles then ECM wouldn't really matter that much, would it? and that's the real problem...

In 4queue it's a total crapshoot because of ECM, but especially when I run in a 4man with some buddies and we have a missile boat and an ECM advantage our missile boat gets 1k damage just for showing up and it's an 8-0 game unless they have enough ECM to stop his fire...

In 8queue you lose if the enemy team has SSRM and you don't. (the team with streak 3Ls will 100% beat the team that doesn't)

So the question is, should we nerf ECM/LOWS together so that neither one is as big of a game changer and instead skill wins instead of this macabre rock-rock-paper donkey show that we're currently enduring? I don't want games to end in the mechbay, I want them to end on the field of glory where it comes down to who made better shots and had better positioning.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 30 December 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Kreisel]

Moenrg, on 30 December 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

The ONLY change I would make to ECM is that it prevents ALL target locks (friendly and enemy). That removes streaks from the light vs light equation. As well as the raining down LRM's while an ECM light runs around..

Do you REALLY want to give that kind of tool to griefers? LRM and Streaks would become useless, if someone on your OWN team could prevent you from using your weapons... that's incredibly bad design, it's anti-teamwork. It doesn't remove streaks from light vs light... because there are plenty of lights without ECM who could still carry it and is it really fair to say... 'oh your class of mech just isn't allowed to carry that weapon system'? Streaks purpose is to hunt lights, you give up overall damage potential vs normal SRM in order to gain the ability to consistently hit.

AlexWildeagle, on 30 December 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

of course ECM is OP vs. TT. It has to be, LRM and streakcats are out of control.

Add to that to prolong the battle they doubled armor values and reduced direct fire damage BUT did almost nothing to missile weapons. So you have folks cramming their loadouts with missiles and almost nothing else and this is causing an imbalance that ECM tries to balance out.

I fail to see how doubling armor did nothing to effect missile weapons. They are ammo dependent, cause heat and spread their damage across armor on multiple sections. If anything it effects them more than say... lasers. Streaks and Artemis were out of control because of glitches that made them zero-in too well on CT and cause too much shaking, both of those have been fixed. Artemis even got a nerf so it doesn't work without LOS. Pure streakcats are much less dangerous now that you can aim at them while they are hitting you and part of their damage is hitting your sides and arms, Still deadly on lights, but... well that's kinda the point.

Besides, if those systems ARE too powerful and needed a counter... shouldn't that counter have been a buff to AMS, a system that every mech can mount and it's sole job is to counter missile systems? Why make ECM a their counter as a 'bonus' add on to it's intended role, instead of making the equipment MEANT to counter missiles do it's job?

shotokan5, on 30 December 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I do understand what the problems are. ECM is a joke. I can come right up behind you and kill you without it. ECM is the most overrated piece of equipment that is ok and should be left alone. We have done to much nerfing as it is. Sorry, every time people can not adapt to something they cry bloody murder and you know what get their way. I don't like that the LRM missile time to lock has been made so long but one has to adapt and change not just complain.

Shotokan5, I'm sorry... but it's pretty clear from this post you don't understand how ECM works. The increase in missile lock time isn't the problem, it isn't really even a factor... because the way ECM functions you can not acquire a lock AT ALL. Under 180 you can't lock on ANYTHING, even things outside the bubble, and at over 200 they will not appear on sensors which means it's impossible to lock onto them then either. I wish the problem was locks took longer, that would be manageable, what we have right now is the potential to be stuck in a match where there is nothing you can do at all to ever get a lock. What I WANT is to have a reliable method TO adapt to ECM that is not: Bring more ECM than the other guys or don't use missiles, the issue is there isn't one right now. Only Tag comes close, you can't put TAG on say an A1 and for the other catapults it's really painful to give up one of your limited laser slots you need for defense against anything that gets under 180, especially since that TAG wont work if they get that close either.

[Blue Shadow]

Two small changes would make a huge difference!
1) SSRMs need to scatter with a small possibility some missiles will miss.
2) ECM counter mode needs to block all other ECMs within range - this way it's not about the number of ECMs you or your enemy has. Nerfing the ECM anymore then that and were back to "LRMs are OP!"

[KuruptU4Fun]

Blue Shadow, on 30 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Two small changes would make a huge difference!
1) SSRMs need to scatter with a small possibility some missiles will miss.
2) ECM counter mode needs to block all other ECMs within range - this way it's not about the number of ECMs you or your enemy has. Nerfing the ECM anymore then that and were back to "LRMs are OP!"

SSRM's require the lock to guarantee they all hit that way they save you the more expensive ammo you're paying for.

Your second suggestion wouldn't do anything but push people to only use 4 mechs out of the 12 we have.

[Deadoon]

-snip- date misread

Edited by Deadoon, 30 December 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Felix]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

SSRM's require the lock to guarantee they all hit that way they save you the more expensive ammo you're paying for.

Your second suggestion wouldn't do anything but push people to only use 4 mechs out of the 12 we have.

The key is to give the SSRMs a randomized chance of firing, half the time they fire, half the time they dont.

That way it simulates the way Streaks are supposed to work

[Kousagi]

I've never noticed ECM effecting focus fire for a team... or at least not with the guys I run with at times. Though we never use the letters to call targets. Its always, "shoot the atlas" and we all know exactly what atlas to shoot, cause we have brains that think... Honestly, I didn't even know those letters where there till half way through open beta....

Kreisel, The reason that double armor did almost nothing for LRM's and halved direct fire weapons effectiveness is that LRM's in MWO almost have double damage as well. In TT, 1 LRM is 1 damage, In MWO 1 LRM is 1.8 damage. Also, in TT its not that common for a full flight of missiles to hit, by odds it will be just over half the missiles that hit. In MWO, so long as you can keep lock and they don't force the missiles to hit terrain, most of your missiles will land, if not all of them. SRM's also got a small damage boost, from 2 per missile to 2.5 per missile.

Edited by Kousagi, 30 December 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[DocBach]

Felix, on 30 December 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

The key is to give the SSRMs a randomized chance of firing, half the time they fire, half the time they dont.

That way it simulates the way Streaks are supposed to work

Streaks are suppose to hit if they lock. What they aren't suppose to do is hit the same location, or just the torso.

[Felix]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Streaks are suppose to hit if they lock. What they aren't suppose to do is hit the same location, or just the torso.

Oh I know, but with PGI's history of making things work, I figure a flip of a coin might be easier for them to implement over randomized damage location