231 replies to this topic

[Captain Midnight]

(LOWS = lock on weapon system, SSRM and LRM specifically and exclusively)

First and foremost, ECM breaks the game because it means one side of the game (the team with more ECM) can use OP streak missiles and the other team can't. If one side has 3 lights and the other side has 2 lights, skill plays a big role. If one side has 3 lights with streaks and ECM and the other side has 2 lights with streaks and ECM skill plays NO ROLE WHATSOEVER and the team with 3 and streaks wins automatically.

A lot of people have a problem with ECM, they say stuff like "ECM is so OP!" or "ECM makes this game stupid, I don't have fun anymore".

Some of these people are saying that because they PUG 100% of the time and with ECM it makes it really hard to have fun in a PUG (true). MOST of these people say it because they use SSRM2s and LRMs (known as LOWS, or lock on weapon systems).

Now that ECM pretty much obsoletes those weapons, we have a really fun and strategic direct fire and scouting game in 8v8. Very skillful, very fun. But this game isn't gonna survive on 8 mans, it's gonna survive on PUG games. PUGs right now are screwed by ECM. No one can see a target to focus even if they wanted to, it's not just that people are bad it's a lack of comms... How are you supposed to shoot the guy in E8 if you're in E4 and your minimap doesn't show friend OR foe?? It's just stupid. A *lot* of capture rushes by 4 man premades as well.... PUGs just suck in the ECM environment, just like in the LOWS environment where you knew who to shoot but you dies in less than ten seconds when the LRMs started coming in or you walked around a corner and oh whattya know an A1 with streaks.

I think the problem is that the developers intentionally made LOWS ridiculously overpowered for the user and instead decided the skill ought to lie in the team makeup and team play aspects, IE. ECM. What they failed to realize was that no one wants to play LOWS vs. ECM: Online. LOWS and ECM *BOTH* need a huge nerf so that PUG games aren't dominated by either. Before ECM the team with more LOWS won by default, now the team with more ECM wins by default... It definitely isn't worse than before, but it is only a smidgeon better. If ECM was less of a dominant choice, and LOWS were less of a dominant choice, this game would be a lot better.

I think streaks should generate 25-100% more heat, and hit both legs and arms. LRMs should deal 25-75% less damage and fly much faster, but not re-acquire targets if a broken lock is re-acquired. ECM should EITHER shorten lock ranges, OR block transmit data. Maybe counter mode could block transmit data and disrupt mode could block targeting range? By transmit data what I mean is "my friend sees the enemy and locks him, therefore I can target and lock him". Currently ECM disables both of those functions. ECM definitely has some room because of the multiple modes to make them more distinct.

Another option is to make the beagle active probe disable the r-target range reductions but NOT fix the locking blocking. This keeps LOWS from being used at long range without a TAG but lets people r-target to call "alpha primary!" or whatever.

Basically nothing should win the game by itself. Before LOWS won the game by themselves, now ECM wins the game by themselves. We need the game to be less dominated by single aspects and more dominated by skill. Everyone who said LOWS deserve to be OP because this is a "simulator" need to shut their mouths because ECM is just as stupid as LOWS and anyone who blindly defends either is stupid. ECM is "simulator" just the same way LOWS are simulator, in that neither are simulator and you are blind to game balance if you think "simulator" means imbalance in a competitive environment is acceptable.

I'd rather have ECM than have LOWS if it were a choice and I crusaded HARD against LOWS in the past, but I really want the game to be dominated by neither than by either. Keep in mind that when the clans come we could have up to SSRM6, and mechs with up to 7-8 missile hardpoints. Do you think the A1 with SSRM6s would be balanced? Even a little? Do you think that mechs that in canon have 8 LRM15s will work in MWO? I don't want people to boat, but not by nerfing boating but by nerfing weapons so that boating just simply is not as competitive as NOT boating. I want diverse and fun builds to be the competitive way to play.

EDIT: Adding in my mechs tierlist right now so people can think about that as well...

MECH TIERS

S - God tier (stack these guys to win cheesy)

Atlas DDC (Streaks + Whatever), Raven 3L (Streaks), Catapult A1 (SRM6+Artemis), Cataphract 1X (5xLL), Cataphract 3D (4xML, 2xGauss, JJ), Catapult K2 (2xGauss/AC20)


A - Highly Competitive

Commando 2D (streaks), Cicada 3M (MPL/ML), Hunchback 4P (9ML), Atlas D/RS, Ilya Muromets (3xUAC5/AC10), HBK-4SP, Dragon 1C (4xLL, Endo, DHS, XL), Catapult C1, Dragon 5N (3xAC2), Cataphract 4X (4xAC2/AC5).


B - Workable

Catapult C4, Cataphract 2X, Jenner D (Such a fall from grace), Jenner F (Barely even acceptable now as well),

F - No way jose

Jenner K, Dragon 1N, Commandos, Ravens, Hunchbacks/Centurions, Cicadas, Awesomes.

WEAPONS

S - God tier

Streaks (OP, if you can use 'em), Artemis SRM4/6 (Short range but OP damage), Gauss (ideal alpha/dps), AC10 (great alpha/dps), Medium Laser (ideal mix of range, damage, and heat), Large Laser (Great mix of range, damage, and heat)

A - Highly Competitive

UAC5 (Jams, but works great when boated), AC20 (sick alpha, high heat), AC2 (high heat high dps), Medium Pulse Laser (nice DPS/heat) , PPCs (high heat high alpha),

B - Workable

LRMs (too hard to land, but good damage), non-artemis SRMs (not enough range), AC5 (not enough dps), LBX10 (not enough range), ER Large Laser (too hot), Large Pulse Laser (too hot, not enough range), Small laser (not enough range), Small Pulse Laser (not enough range), ER PPCS (too hot).

Edited by Captain Midnight, 15 December 2012 - 03:40 AM.

[Captain Midnight]

Anyone who doubts streaks are overpowered should consider, does anyone even CONSIDER putting something something besides SSRM2 in their ravens? I'm sorry was that a no? Speak up louder, was that a NO I WANT TO WIN I USE SSRM2 IN MY RAVEN!!!!

If streaks weren't OP then the ECM wouldn't matter and the Jenner D that is the same mech as a 3L except with jumpjets and an additional laser hardpoint and faster would STILL be better than the Raven. But it isn't. It's worse and not by a little tiny bit, but by such a wide chasm that it is unusably bad.

I think it's cute people think LOWS are fine but ECM is the problem...

Edited by Captain Midnight, 15 December 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[GoodVindicator]

SSRM2 is a no brainer choice for missile slot - it always hit and this alone mean this is a broken weapon. Why have weapon with 100% hit ratio? And dont tell me about how "hard" to use it. Even against mech with ECM SSRM2 can be used effectively and will kill any heavy/medium/light mech given a time because missiles unaffected by lag and pilot skills useless against it. You cant outrun/evade/hide from SSRM2. Ive seen commando destroyed heavy mech with 3 of these and is much faster than any mech with other weapons. Right now ssrm2 is OP its push the button to deal damage and in a game with net lag its a game breaker because all players must compensate for enemy mech speed and have some aiming skills.

[Captain Midnight]

Vindicator gets it, the raven 3L isn't OP because of the mech hardpoints or tonnage it's OP because it can use SSRM2 vs. any other mech, and except the 2D no other mech can use SSRM2s back. (The 2D loses because it has so much less armor, even with 1 more SSRM2 it still loses thanks to lower armor and an orange Raven will emerge from the circle strafe session alive and well enough to continue fighting)

TL;DR, this game is ******** until LOWS and ECM both are brought in line.

Edited by Captain Midnight, 15 December 2012 - 04:19 AM.

[Kell Commander]

The real problem with the SSRM2 is they kept it too much like the TT rules. Trying to take the rule set where you can only fire a weapon once every 10 seconds to a much faster pace game is going to have a LOT of problems. I remember seeing so many people complain about the SSRM2 missing because in TT it wouldn't fire if it missed, but that just does not translate to this game. I honestly think if the SSRM2 had the ability to miss again, problem solved weapon balanced.

Now about the ECM, they actually added stealth armor and called it an ECM. I feel the friendly ECM bubble should not prevent enemy mechs from targeting you. Make it take longer to lock and easier for lock to break and that would be fine. Also, if an enemy ECM gets too close to you then I am ok with it blocking your ability to gain a lock at all. Also, it should absolutely not affect the tag. Tag is a direct line of sight weapon that paints the target with a laser and the mech with the tag relays that info to his team. The fact ECM blocks this baffles me.

[Kernfeuer]

GoodVindicator, on 15 December 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

SSRM2 is a no brainer choice for missile slot - it always hit and this alone mean this is a broken weapon. Why have weapon with 100% hit ratio? And dont tell me about how "hard" to use it. Even against mech with ECM SSRM2 can be used effectively and will kill any heavy/medium/light mech given a time because missiles unaffected by lag and pilot skills useless against it. You cant outrun/evade/hide from SSRM2. Ive seen commando destroyed heavy mech with 3 of these and is much faster than any mech with other weapons. Right now ssrm2 is OP its push the button to deal damage and in a game with net lag its a game breaker because all players must compensate for enemy mech speed and have some aiming skills.

--->SSRM2 is a no brainer choice for missile slot-->Whine fail from an guy who gots killed to often from this weapon
--->Why have weapon with 100% hit ratio?--->easy to answer..we in Mechwarrior..you dont like it?..go and play Tetris
--->Even against mech with ECM SSRM2 can be used effectively and will kill any heavy/medium/light mech given a time because missiles unaffected by lag and pilot skills----> hmm unaffected by lag huh ..seems not the weapon is the problem or iam wrong?..and by the way..In every Mech whit Every! weapon you will need skill(and some brain)

and about the rest...well yes an commando can take down an heavy..even an mighty atlas so what? and at least..Ssrm (also called just streaks) are not Op anymore the damage output is moderat...after tweaking its not hit then Ct only (think ongoing patches they will Hit the Whole mech) so this is just an pointless troll post (man dammit why i response to it anyway? )..well whatever Streaks are fine..deal whit it

[Wolfways]

Imo the only thing needed was for SSRM's was for the lock to take longer to acquire; for it to break as soon as the reticule was moved away from the target; and for a new lock needed before firing new missiles.

(And maybe longer lock for LRM's, but i have never thought LRM's were OP apart from the two days where they dropped vertically onto mech heads.)

[Kell Commander]

Wolfways, on 15 December 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

(And maybe longer lock for LRM's, but i have never thought LRM's were OP apart from the two days where they dropped vertically onto mech heads.)

That and LRM's don't travel though terrain anymore, or if they do they don't do damage.

[Captain Midnight]

Kernfeuer, on 15 December 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

--->SSRM2 is a no brainer choice for missile slot-->Whine fail from an guy who gots killed to often from this weapon
--->Why have weapon with 100% hit ratio?--->easy to answer..we in Mechwarrior..you dont like it?..go and play Tetris
--->Even against mech with ECM SSRM2 can be used effectively and will kill any heavy/medium/light mech given a time because missiles unaffected by lag and pilot skills----> hmm unaffected by lag huh ..seems not the weapon is the problem or iam wrong?..and by the way..In every Mech whit Every! weapon you will need skill(and some brain)

and about the rest...well yes an commando can take down an heavy..even an mighty atlas so what? and at least..Ssrm (also called just streaks) are not Op anymore the damage output is moderat...after tweaking its not hit then Ct only (think ongoing patches they will Hit the Whole mech) so this is just an pointless troll post (man dammit why i response to it anyway? )..well whatever Streaks are fine..deal whit it

This guy is the kind of fool that exactly paradigms what I am railing against. [REDACTED]

Edited by Viterbi, 15 December 2012 - 12:35 PM.
Removed directed content

[Joseph Mallan]

Guardian ECM doesn't block SSRMs in TT Angel ECM however does. So we don't have Guardian we have Angel ECM.

Second making Missiles as ineffective as they are is diminishing combat to a stupid brawl only game. including Missiles gives the option of killing your enemy before they can kill you at knife range. I am a strong supporter of if you are close enough to use medium lasers, I failed some where. My mission is to kill you, nothing more. I do not need to let you get into range of your weapons if you failed to bring ranged weapons. I don't have to stroke my ego by seeing the lights in your cockpit before I kill you. I already learned how to kill 25+ years ago and I remember that when You got into bayonet range, it was due to Me not doing my job right the first time!

So for those who think that ECM has improved the game, you are wrong. It has changed it. That is all it did. There is so much more to good combat than running up into each others face and shooting. That style of fighting hasn't been used in ages. There are may ways to win a battle, lets not limit ourselves.

[Taemien]

I believe a simple fix to Streaks and LRMs would be allow them to lockon to mechs by simply putting the crosshair on the target mech. Targeting the mech makes this easier (which ECM would still inhibit). This way these weapons aren't neutered. This video shows what I mean (in MWLL, you have to do this even if the mech is targeted, just getting it in the square isn't enough):

http://www.youtube.c...ayoBfyRw#t=121s

[Captain Midnight]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 December 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Guardian ECM doesn't block SSRMs in TT Angel ECM however does. So we don't have Guardian we have Angel ECM.

Second making Missiles as ineffective as they are is diminishing combat to a stupid brawl only game. including Missiles gives the option of killing your enemy before they can kill you at knife range. I am a strong supporter of if you are close enough to use medium lasers, I failed some where. My mission is to kill you, nothing more. I do not need to let you get into range of your weapons if you failed to bring ranged weapons. I don't have to stroke my ego by seeing the lights in your cockpit before I kill you. I already learned how to kill 25+ years ago and I remember that when You got into bayonet range, it was due to Me not doing my job right the first time!

So for those who think that ECM has improved the game, you are wrong. It has changed it. That is all it did. There is so much more to good combat than running up into each others face and shooting. That style of fighting hasn't been used in ages. There are may ways to win a battle, lets not limit ourselves.

If you want to fight a real war go out into the forest and go kill some civilians rambo, the rest of us want to play mechwarrior. Mechwarrior isn't realistic, it's just Mechwarrior. Nothing about this game, NOTHING, is realistic. Nothing whatsoever. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. This game is not realistic. This is not a game based on realism.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dude has a cool set up in that video, but he seemed to be "faffing about" a lot and not finding enemies much.

[Joseph Mallan]

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

If you want to fight a real war go out into the forest and go kill some civilians rambo, the rest of us want to play mechwarrior. Mechwarrior isn't realistic, it's just Mechwarrior. Nothing about this game, NOTHING, is realistic. Nothing whatsoever. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. This game is not realistic. This is not a game based on realism.

I never killed civilians sir, to imply that is insulting. I want to play MechWarrior too. But I want to play it with all the bells and whistles. MechWarrior has used All the weapons we have now through all its incarnations. you wanna just brawl? Good do so after closing with the enemy under the umbrella of your teams LRMS. Or when you get in over your head and 2 Atlas and a SRMCat are clobbering you your Missile boats can provide assistance to you and your other teammate 400M East of you. only someone who doesn't understand war wants the game to be one dimensional. Oh and there is one realism in this game. Man has been waging war on man since he learned to pick up a club.

[Sifright]

Kernfeuer, on 15 December 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

--->SSRM2 is a no brainer choice for missile slot-->Whine fail from an guy who gots killed to often from this weapon
--->Why have weapon with 100% hit ratio?--->easy to answer..we in Mechwarrior..you dont like it?..go and play Tetris
--->Even against mech with ECM SSRM2 can be used effectively and will kill any heavy/medium/light mech given a time because missiles unaffected by lag and pilot skills----> hmm unaffected by lag huh ..seems not the weapon is the problem or iam wrong?..and by the way..In every Mech whit Every! weapon you will need skill(and some brain)

and about the rest...well yes an commando can take down an heavy..even an mighty atlas so what? and at least..Ssrm (also called just streaks) are not Op anymore the damage output is moderat...after tweaking its not hit then Ct only (think ongoing patches they will Hit the Whole mech) so this is just an pointless troll post (man dammit why i response to it anyway? )..well whatever Streaks are fine..deal whit it

oh look an idi0t.

Didn't take long for one to respond.

Edited by Sifright, 15 December 2012 - 05:22 AM.

[KinLuu]

There simply needs to be a way to counter ECM that is not a own ECM.

That is all.

[Kell Commander]

So you call out a guy for what's wrong with the forums...

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

This guy is the kind of fool that exactly paradigms what I am railing against. [REDACTED]

...and then respond to someone else like this?

Captain Midnight, on 15 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

If you want to fight a real war go out into the forest and go kill some civilians rambo, the rest of us want to play mechwarrior. Mechwarrior isn't realistic, it's just Mechwarrior. Nothing about this game, NOTHING, is realistic. Nothing whatsoever. Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. This game is not realistic. This is not a game based on realism.

Your point is no longer valid.

[Captain Midnight]

Kell Commander, on 15 December 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

So you call out a guy for what's wrong with the forums...

...and then respond to someone else like this?

Your point is no longer valid.

Whereas John Rambo Mallan who thinks this game should be a desert shield simulator except with mechs and except with m16s and except except except except except etc etc etc... John doesn't know what he wants. He wants this game to feel like mechwarrior, and right now to him it doesn't.

If my valid points are invalidated by my other valid points then I hope you die in a fire (in game).

[Marj]

Streaks are fine as is. The problem isn't streaks being too good, it's that direct fire weapons aren't good enough due to poor netcode. Fix the netcode and direct fire weapons will be just as good as streaks.

[Khobai]

http://penny-arcade....ncing-for-skill

This video is relevant for why you need weapons with disproportionately low-skill and high-power output.

SSRMs and LRMs are basically MWO's equivalent of the noobtube from call of duty. They give new players a chance against skilled players because of their ability to lock-on and track.

That's not to say SSRMs and LRMs don't have problems. They do. The biggest problem with SSRMs is that they automatically hit whch makes them a hard counter to light mechs. Hard counters in general tend not to be good for game balance, because no amount of player skill can overcome a hard counter, while a soft counter can be overcome by player skill. So streaks should not autohit. Likewise, ECM should not hard counter streaks and prevent them from firing, instead disrupted streaks should simply fire like normal srms.

As for LRMs, the main problem with them is the indirect fire. In tabletop, indirect fire is horribly inaccurate, while in MWO its just good as direct firing LRMs. Indirect fired LRMs should get an accuracy penalty. Additionally, Artemis should not work on indirect fired LRMs. Likewise, ECM should not completely shut down LRMs, and should only reduce sensor range to 500m instead of 200m (and 750m with TAG).

Plus I think the poll speaks for itself.. the OP is completely wrong.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2012 - 06:33 AM.