76 replies to this topic

[Carnivoris]

Or they could just make it work like it's supposed to work. In TT, ECM ONLY counters Artemis, NARC, and C3 communications (not yet implemented). It does NOT prevent lock by SSRMs (or even LRMs from what I understand).

[DocBach]

King Arthur IV, on 01 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

just saying, you can waste your time by giving your suggestions along with the countless meaningless one.

you have a much better chance of posting something that explains why you think ecm, bap etc. needs buffs or nerfs to change devs mind rather then just posting your fix. using good reasoning is much more productive because it gives more insight to the core problem.

so many people are posting quick fixes, throwing out unjustified numbers.

http://mwomercs.com/...mation-warfare/

[Codejack]

King Arthur IV, on 01 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

you have a much better chance of posting something that explains why you think ecm, bap etc. needs buffs or nerfs to change devs mind rather then just posting your fix. using good reasoning is much more productive because it gives more insight to the core problem.

We've tried that, too, but how hard is it?

ECM makes 2 weapon systems useless unless you can count on having ECM, yourself. Those weapon systems are the ones best suited to killing small, fast mechs, yet 3 of the 4 ECM mechs are those exact mechs, and 2 of them get twice as much armor as they are supposed to.

This unbalances the game further in favor of premade groups, who are more likely to have custom mechs and hence ECM, steepening the learning curve of an already intricate gaming system, likely driving new players, and their money, away. This also erodes the fun factor since you are likely to wind up in matches where, regardless of your individual skill, you are either overwhelming the opposition, or you are overwhelmed yourself.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Code you know just as well as I that armor values were doubled across all mechs well into the beginning of Closed Beta for game play reasons. You're making it sound like those 3 mechs were singled out to get double armor.

As well as the fact (whether you chose to participate in one or not) this is a team based game. Those who take advantage of that are going to do better statistically. So your being "overwhelmed" by team players is an active choice you are making, along with everyone else who firmly believes they should be able to kill 6-7 mechs playing solo.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 01 January 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Codejack]

KuruptU4Fun, on 01 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Code you know just as well as I that armor values were doubled across all mechs well into the beginning of Closed Beta for game play reasons. You're making it sound like those 3 mechs were singled out to get double armor.

Light chassis' benefited disproportionately, and half the ECM mechs are lights....

KuruptU4Fun, on 01 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

As well as the fact (whether you chose to participate in one or not) this is a team based game. Those who take advantage of that are going to do better statistically. So your being "overwhelmed" by team players is an active choice you are making, along with everyone else who firmly believes they should be able to kill 6-7 mechs playing solo.

Straw man: I never argued that teams should not have an advantage, nor do I have a problem with the current situation. I have ECM mechs...

The opposite position, however, is that PUGs should not have a realistic chance against a premade; it's already bad enough that newer, solo players are more likely to be driving trial mechs...

Half the games are divided into shooters and targets; it's not much fun being either one.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Codejack, on 01 January 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Light chassis' benefited disproportionately, and half the ECM mechs are lights....

Light chassis benefit from lag shields created by bad net code. Not because they are ECM lights, they benefited from lag shield before ECM was introduced.


Straw man: I never argued that teams should not have an advantage, nor do I have a problem with the current situation. I have ECM mechs...

The opposite position, however, is that PUGs should not have a realistic chance against a premade; it's already bad enough that newer, solo players are more likely to be driving trial mechs...

Half the games are divided into shooters and targets; it's not much fun being either one.

The only way this will truly be rectified is when single players only drop with other single players. An option being given that a single player can choose to get listed in the pre-made ques. Which would obviously help out the 3 man pre-made groups.

I suck at COD because I suck at twitch shooting. Hence the reason I don't play any game with that title.

[Codejack]

KuruptU4Fun, on 01 January 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

The only way this will truly be rectified is when single players only drop with other single players. An option being given that a single player can choose to get listed in the pre-made ques. Which would obviously help out the 3 man pre-made groups.

I don't have a problem mixing premades and PUGs; how else will the PUGers learn how the teams do things? I have a problem with repeatedly overbalancing the game in the favor of the premade.

[Teralitha]

This isnt a premade vs pug topic. This is about re writing ECM to be more sensible. And yes Dev's do read hot topics.

Edited by Teralitha, 02 January 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

The game is way more fun with LRMs sitting on the shelf.

only cause they usually spoil your plans

[TopperHarley]

ECM wins the game.

If you guys want to keep this game playable and if you want it to grow in numbers of players, you def. need to fix this asap.
once one team has no ECM it is doomed. (mimimi LTP blabla... I know all ur flaming posts so just leave it out)
ECM, the way it is, is way to strong. Little 120kmh mechs running into enemy lines causing chaos everywhere they appear.
This kinda gameplay has nothing to do with the Mechwarrior games i know from the beginning. It feels more like CoD or Quake (just missing Strafejump...I bet it's coming soon)
Maybe you Devs. take look into the older games to inspire yourself how ecm should be ( http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite ...Sensors can sometimes override this jamming,
though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes...) or you imagine your own solution.
The way it is is a absolute (sorry) brainfart.
I know you want to stick to the original Battletech rules but sometimes you just cant copy/paste a tabletop into a computergame...
Reduce the ankle ECM is operating at (90deg. or less maybe)
Don't let ECM jam everything around. Lock the target to jam it.
Increase the tonnage and/or solt-costs of the module or increase the heat.
Bring back collision and dripping so the Runners risk something when they run into enemy lines.
Increase the range of ECCM-ing.
Tons of ideas... Feel free to pick one!!
and to all u: LTP FLAMERS... LTP!
This has nothing to to with skill. its just a baaaad unbalanced game mechanic...

happy ECMfraggin

[Tarantoga]

what? you want to take away the godlike only counterable by itself ability given to only few chosen mechs? what is balance?

sorry devs how could you not think this through

[Lykaon]

When ECM became available I played with it tested it and developed strategies to counter.

What I concluded after day one of using ECM was what we actually see in practice.

1) Obsolete mechs: some chassis become undesireable because they lack ECM.With matchmaking matching weight class you will be placing your team at a disadvantage by bringing a mech of a weight class that lacks ECM if ECM is availbe to that weight class.All this does does is open the slot for the enemy to get an ECM mech.It's a bad gamble so many don't gamble they just stick with ECM mechs.

2) More ECM= better ECM: we now have premades stacking ECM as a means of asuring the access to ECM because ECM counters ECM.This exaserbates the obsolete mechs issue since now in order to be sure you have effective ECM you need to bring tons of it thus leaving more mechs behind and seeing only a handful of mech varients in use because those varients have ECM.Honestly we may as well just allow ECM on any chassis at least then every mech will bring one and we will see more than 5 or 6 mech chassis in frequent use.

3) Light mech vs light mech will be decided mainly on who has more ECM+streaks on thier side.Pilot skill or marksmanship will take a backseat to streak spamming ECM equiped mechs.I have lost several fights against truley aweful pilots only because they had more ECM+ more streaks.Not what I consider a rewarding experience for practicing how to become a good pilot.

4) Turning a steep learning curve into a learning cliff face.The average new player has to assimilate a great deal of information quickly in order to compete against experienced players.ECM has in essence removed large portions of the data and created an even more confused enviorment for new players.They had it tough enough already ECM may have made it to tough.

5) ECM grants way to many features for a passive system.it takes no attention to grant an entire team.Sensor invisability,immunity from missile locks and deny the enemy all passive information gathering.Just slap on in and stand within 180m and bingo tons of passive perks.So since it requires little to no learning to use it gets used a lot.

6) ECM is significantly more potent in puggie matches than premade v premade.
Premade teams use voice chat to exchange intel puggies do not.This of course means that puggies are entirely reliant upon passive intel gathering.Passive intel is negated entirely by ECM.So in a puggie enviorment ECM kills all information warfare.
Info warfare is boiled down to who has ECM or more of it.

7) while we have several counters to ECM the only counter used frequently is more ECM than the other guys.
Why bother with TAG if you need to hit a target to make use of it when we have passive counter mode to toggle to.just press a button and pay no more attention to it.Only premades can effectivley communicate intel denied to their team as passive data because of ECM jamming targeting or locking so puggies are left out in the cold on that.

8) near exstinction of SSRMs and LRMs on non ECM mechs.Unless you mech has an ECM you probably do not take streaks or LRMs.Again a completely passive feature of ECM is to nullify locks.I now only see LRMs used rarely in pug matches and almost always mounted on a stalker.If you pug exclusivley driving a mech with significant LRMs or Streaks is a gamble.You are gambling on your enemy not having ECM or more effective ECM.Conversley Streaks are "mandatory" on ECM light mechs.

Essentially I feared ECM would present far to many problems to merit it's current execution as a feature.I can honestly say the pre ECM game was superior.I enjoyed it far more than I do this one trick pony ECM game we have currently.

It is unfortunate that when I do play I am heavily compelled to pilot an ECM mech.The enemy certainly will and at least I put in the time to be good at it.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

King Arthur IV, on 01 January 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

just saying, you can waste your time by giving your suggestions along with the countless meaningless one.

you have a much better chance of posting something that explains why you think ecm, bap etc. needs buffs or nerfs to change devs mind rather then just posting your fix. using good reasoning is much more productive because it gives more insight to the core problem.

so many people are posting quick fixes, throwing out unjustified numbers.

ok... it should work like this:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM

not like this:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM

specifically the "Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles." part as it relates to streak systems and all other locking missile systems in this game.

like I said... http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1 there

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 13 January 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 13 January 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

ok... it should work like this:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM

not like this:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Angel_ECM

specifically the "Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles." part as it relates to streak systems and all other locking missile systems in this game.

like I said... http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1 there

you addressing the devs right? not me
one small part to why ecm is so op is, 3rd party viop but i think the devs know that.

[TehCable]

Please vote in the poll on this topic in Suggestions:

http://mwomercs.com/...-communication/

[LucidFir]

Got to say to the people saying "stop bitching"; I asked support about this and was directly informed that bitching is the only way to get your voice heard. If no-one spoke out against ECM, we'd be stuck with it as is. It is in blatant need of change, not saying I don't enjoy MWO - just that ECM needs to be fixed. Luckily, Garth has said quite recently that they are trying to work out what to do about it, and the game is in BETA still - so that's fine, as long as it doesn't become a permanent feature I'll be happy.

[Anjian]

This is starting not to be fun at all. Either I get myself an ECM mech, or I become a target. I don't like both alternatives and I don't like where this is eventually heading.

I don't even understand why only four mechs are allowed to have ECM. Favoritism is just contrary to the the principles of game balance, otherwise players will be drawn excessively to using these weapons disproportionately. As a module every mech should be allowed to carry one, and lets be honest, ECM in real life generates excess heat, has a weight and aerodynamic penalty that affects the performance and handling of the craft it is in.

[PANZERBUNNY]

A bubble is fine. It depends what happens in that bubble.

A longer lock on and less missiles hitting targets in the bubble.

Combined with AMS it would be MORE than decent.

[ArmandTulsen]

Yes, we need more of these threads to drill home the point that GECM is broken.

No, that wasn't sarcasm.

Neither was that.

Nope. Still serious.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 26 January 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[AlexWildeagle]

Teralitha, on 15 December 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

No ECM bubble.
Only reduces the range of LOS targeting from 700m to 200m on a mech that carries it.

BAP will be a soft counter to ECM, in that, if an ECM mech were to get within 500 meters they could be detected with normal LOS by mechs carrying BAP.

No effect on missles whatsoever other than not being able to lock if no LOS targeting as usual.

With this idea we dont want to make BAP a total nerf to ECM by allowing every mech to use it. No, BAP will also have to be limited to only a few certain varients, just like ECM, and a very rare few will be able to carry both. Like the Raven 3L Instead of ECm being required like now, it would merely be a choice... It really will make the whole electronic warfare role come down to personal preference rather than be required to have ECM or ECCM.


Think about it... detected as normal only within 200m, detected as normal within 500m by BAP carrying mechs... TAG range 450m.... SSRM range 270m. And LRM's No longer sitting on the shelf.

Hello skill... nice to see you again.

EDIT: Oops, TAG is now 750.... but they can change it back to fit this suggestion. With ECm and BAP limited this way, you could easily place it on more than the 4 varients we have now without causing them to be a required item.

If they would fix missiles I would stand behind modifying ECM. But until the fix missiles ECM has to remain.