22 replies to this topic

[Statius]

It is without a doubt that many meeting have already discussed many options for game modes. Perhaps something like this has already been mentioned behind the walls at PGI. Nevertheless, I'l suggest it all the same.

At present two game modes have been revealed to us: Assault and Conquest, both of which are inherently symmetrical. Given the BETA stage of the game, this is a great way to test out balance and a host of other issues that benefit from the parallel situations. Assault mode in its current state, however, evokes little sense of an involvement in the broader, dynamic universe which Community Warfare is supposed to offer, when it is rolled out. Though Conquest draws on this 'in universe' experience a little more the objective of collecting resources for your house it retains the aspect of being a little more like a competitive sport than a battle.

To capture, perhaps, something of the dynamism and asymmetry of a real campaign (not that I know it in any true way!) I propose that a "Retreat" mode could offer the kind of new experience that many in the community are clamouring for. The retreat mode would be just that: a retreat from a battle to a safe point on the map. One side would be composed of those retreating, and the other the victorious forces mopping up the remaining 'mechs. Essentially it would be a game of hunter and hunted, or even, hide and go seek.

The basic points are as follows:

• The objective for the retreating team is to make it to a rendezvous point
  
• The objective for the hunting team is to destroy the retreating forces

In order to establish the sense that the retreating forces are scattered

• The retreating forces 'mechs would begin separated and scattered throughout the map.
  
• The hunting forces would begin as a group.

With these conditions alone the match would become nothing more than a race. To avoid this another element would be added: the rendezvous point would be site of dropship pick-up

• The dropship would landing would be in a random part of the map too, the location of which only the retreating team would know.
  
• This dropship would only land at the end of a timer, either from the beginning of the map or at the commanders call.

The retreating team cannot, therefore, just run willy-nilly to the pick-up zone, but must carefully co-ordinate their approach so as not to give either individual locations away, nor the landing site.

• The more 'mechs that board and escape on the dropship the more points gained for the retreating team.
  
• Takeoff would not be automatic, but at the commanders discretion. Will you wait for the stragglers or cut your losses?

These battles could figure into the metagame by reversing some of the losses of the losing side in any planetary conflict. What this could mean only the dev's could suggest. Nevertheless, much is obviously at stake.

• The gravity of the situation would be underscored by the possibility of the hunting team destroying the dropship, albeit, at great effort. A bad call on the commanders part about summoning the dropship could spell defeat.

I hope the merits of such a game mode are evident. It would demand, of its nature, cooperation, and more than this, offer immersion while and variety, but also the simplicity which could make it viable for being a repeated mode.

Your thoughts and criticisms are welcome!

Edited by Statius, 15 December 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Sounds good.

How about if it is implemented as a 2 stage match? The first phase could be capture the base (or whatever), and the second phase would have the losing team retreating. This might even placate the respawn crowd, as everyone would participate in both rounds.

[Red squirrel]

+1

[Void Angel]

This is a good idea, overall. Balance would be a challenge, to say the least, but it's creative and tactically interesting. It also suggests the possibilities of other battles, such as capturing neutral location(s) to win, or a smash (or a smash and grab) objective raid.

The specific implementation suggested has its challenges, however. The option to leave people behind would be problematic. The team in a pickup group would be at the mercy of whoever grabbed Commander first. The biggest hurdle would be force balance. The ability to focus fire is a huge advantage, and part of the situation with ECM is that The Powers That Be want to emphasize team combat and strategy. "Solaris is that way, Mechwarrior," so to speak. But what happens when people start queueing up with 4-mans full of light mechs? A Pug that runs into them isn't likely to have enough lights to chase them down, right? There's other applications of mech loadout and team composition I could list, but you get the idea (making the mission type random would also run counter to the team strategy concept.)

However, I'd certainly want to try a mission with some kind of implementation of this idea. It has the potential to be frustrating, but it also sounds like fun.

[Statius]

These are fair points. It would work best with at least one 8-,man team, being the retreating party. I think, however, that the team aspect would remain despite the scattered state of the retreating team, since they would have the option of banding together, moving into small groups, etc., while the hunting team would have to either stick together at the risk of allowing a clean getaway for the retreating team or would have to scatter themselves, which would the retreating team could also take advantage of if they also put together a small counter-hunting party.

Another current limitation is the small size of the current maps. The hiding team could easily be flushed out. This mode would become more viable with larger maps, especially with more nooks a crannies.

[TheAquired]

please please! Let modes as inventive as these be added to this game! it would make it something so new and original, it would attract more people and the people who already enjoy it, would enjoy it more! So far so many elements seem fairly borrowed, that besides the lore, there is nothing "unique" enough to make someone specifically play. I play cause I love the gameplay, and this would just make the gameplay even more amazing

Edited by TheAquired, 16 December 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[MacCaileanMor]

I like this idea. I posted some time ago that it would be nice to incentivize retreat. Right now everyone fights to the death and this is inherently unrealistic. I also like the idea of a two phase game where the losing team in phase 1 is the retreating team in phase 2.

The first mechwarrior game I played back in 1991 had two phase games where there was some limited time to repair and rearm between phases. The second phase you would play in a damaged mech without full ammo.

I think this mode of game play would be best on large maps where the retreating mechs might have some chance of regrouping to fight their way through to the rendevous point or simply avoid detection and sneak their way to the rendevous point.

I am sure some would find this mode boring but it would be a great addition to the campaign and role playing side of the game.

[Tempests Wrath]

I like this idea as a concept.

Implentation would take a lot of work.

Especially to make it so my (for example) 140+ Kph light mech doesnt vastly out perform my 50 kph assault mech.

Still, +1 for you.

[Hotthedd]

Tempests Wrath, on 16 December 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

I like this idea as a concept.

Implentation would take a lot of work.

Especially to make it so my (for example) 140+ Kph light mech doesnt vastly out perform my 50 kph assault mech.

Still, +1 for you.

But that would be a big part of the dynamic, wouldn't it? A retreat is only as fast as its slowest mech, unless the commander decides to leave you...

[Tempests Wrath]

Hotthedd, on 16 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

But that would be a big part of the dynamic, wouldn't it? A retreat is only as fast as its slowest mech, unless the commander decides to leave you...

Except that the idea as listed leaves the retrating forces as scattered already. 'The chain is only as strong as its weakest link' only applies if the links start in a chain.

My light mech? that thing is built to be able to run around solo if I need it too. My assault mech? not so much. Especially with that whole 'running' bit.

It could work, maybe either by deploying your mechs by weight class, or having the enemy team start 2-3 KM away in a random direction. Or maybe only having scattered mean 500m away from the closest ally at worst (with a combination of the above). But as it stands, for either situation (pursuer, or pursuee) id happily run my light mech every single time, and my assault would sit back collecting dust simply due to the extreme utility that speed gives you when the objective is to 'Catch the other guy' or 'Dont get caught'

[Tesunie]

I like the concept, but I'd like to add my two c-bills into the mix.

This would be a game mode where there would probably be no clear victor unless one team completely escapes or is destroyed. On te escaping side, I would have a bonus for ton weight saved. Therefor, sure, you might wish to leave that slow Atlas behind, but a 100 ton mech is worth more on the battlefield and in c-bills for replacement, and thus worth more to recover. Light mechs would be worth less points, and less C-bill bonus for being saved. So go ahead, bring in a fast squad. You'll get nothing out of the retreat...

It would be a game mode that would force cooperation far more than the current other maps. I really like the idea. I'd have the dropship either be landing in a randomly generated spot (that the retreating team only will know), or be placed by a command unit. Timing could be started at the start of the mission. "Get here by this time or we leave you." Or might be directed at the whim of the commander. Could also have an ETA timer on when the dropship will land. If you can get there before hand and wait, then as soon as it lands, you load up and leave. If you get there later, and the enemy finds it before you do they could attack the dropship, cutting off escape. Dropship could also be timed for landing (so the match has to last x amount of time unless a team is completely wiped) and will take off at a specific time unless the whole team is at the point. Could add in protecting the dropship (which would have weapons of it's own, go ahead. Shoot at it) as part of the mission...


I like this idea. Wouldn't mind a defend the ____ missions as well. Even a Defend this player's mech (auto leader) or lose. (Enemy wouldn't know who to hunt down!) I'd probably have it as always an assault or heavy mech. Otherwise, a light could go pop too easily and most commanders didn't pilot light mechs. Too vulnerable of a spot for a commander.

[Statius]

Tesunie, on 16 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I like the concept, but I'd like to add my two c-bills into the mix.

This would be a game mode where there would probably be no clear victor unless one team completely escapes or is destroyed. On te escaping side, I would have a bonus for ton weight saved. Therefor, sure, you might wish to leave that slow Atlas behind, but a 100 ton mech is worth more on the battlefield and in c-bills for replacement, and thus worth more to recover. Light mechs would be worth less points, and less C-bill bonus for being saved. So go ahead, bring in a fast squad. You'll get nothing out of the retreat...

It would be a game mode that would force cooperation far more than the current other maps. I really like the idea. I'd have the dropship either be landing in a randomly generated spot (that the retreating team only will know), or be placed by a command unit. Timing could be started at the start of the mission. "Get here by this time or we leave you." Or might be directed at the whim of the commander. Could also have an ETA timer on when the dropship will land. If you can get there before hand and wait, then as soon as it lands, you load up and leave. If you get there later, and the enemy finds it before you do they could attack the dropship, cutting off escape. Dropship could also be timed for landing (so the match has to last x amount of time unless a team is completely wiped) and will take off at a specific time unless the whole team is at the point. Could add in protecting the dropship (which would have weapons of it's own, go ahead. Shoot at it) as part of the mission...

Indeed.

No clear victor, so a kind of gradated victory scheme could cover that (Pyrrhic victory, heroic escape, etc.). Rewards should certainly take tonnage rescued into consideration, although the number of 'mechs rescued could offer bonuses (1 mech = 1.1x total point, 2 'mechs = 1.2x etc.). In this way a complete retreat would be incentivized. The vulnerability of the dropship only raises the stakes,

[Oppresor]

Statius, on 15 December 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

• To avoid this another element would be added: the rendezvous point would be site of dropship pick-up
  
• The dropship would landing would be in a random part of the map too, the location of which only the retreating team would know.
  
• This dropship would only land at the end of a timer, either from the beginning of the map or at the commanders call.

The retreating team cannot, therefore, just run willy-nilly to the pick-up zone, but must carefully co-ordinate their approach so as not to give either individual locations away, nor the landing site.

• The more 'mechs that board and escape on the dropship the more points gained for the retreating team.
  
• Takeoff would not be automatic, but at the commanders discretion. Will you wait for the stragglers or cut your losses?

These battles could figure into the metagame by reversing some of the losses of the losing side in any planetary conflict. What this could mean only the dev's could suggest. Nevertheless, much is obviously at stake.

• The gravity of the situation would be underscored by the possibility of the hunting team destroying the dropship, albeit, at great effort. A bad call on the commanders part about summoning the dropship could spell defeat.

I hope the merits of such a game mode are evident. It would demand, of its nature, cooperation, and more than this, offer immersion while and variety, but also the simplicity which could make it viable for being a repeated mode.


Your thoughts and criticisms are welcome!

Brilliant! The important bit is that the DropShip would be vulnerable; at some point the Lance leader or next most senior within the retreating team would need to make the call to evac. The risk is that the stragglers or those brave souls who stay behind to hold the line, would be counted as KIA and affect the c balance for the mission.

Other things that could be added into the senario are:

1. Recovery of damaged friendly or enemy mechs - we would need a recovery unit of some sort, either a new Mech or a Vehicle. This could offset the total losses for the mission.

2. A limited repair or reAm ability on the DropShip for those who make it back first. They could then re-deploy to cover the retreat and maybe save a few more units.

[Hotthedd]

This suggestion just keeps getting better and better.

Nice job all around.

[Parmeggido]

This has become my favorite thread, because not only does it avoid sounding like a bunch of whiny children, you above posters have actually been doing some good brainstorming. So, good job, and likes for everyone (yaaay)!

Anyway, there are a couple of definite hurdles to overcome. For example, the retreating team is put at the start into a bad position. They are set up for failure, which is why this is a retreat. So a big question is how to encourage them to actually retreat instead of clumping up and simply blowing away the pursuers. Another thing that concerns me is repair costs, because as stated, you are retreating at this point, which would mean you are already overwhelmed by your opponents.

As far as actual suggestions, I think it would be interesting to add an environmental effect, something like a solar storm, which cuts down on sensor range, something like from the ~900m it is now to something like 500m. Then, make it so that this is countered by BAP, because with ECM, BAP isn't worth much right now, and something like this could be a great boost to its use.

I've always been a fan of hide and seek type modes, but in most cases they don't really have an effect on a players overall game. So if someone could figure out how to make an actual retreat the best viable option, while not making the retreating team so weak as to be constantly steamrolled, that would be a truly worthy achievement. However, until that can be accomplished, I feel that it would be hard to popularize a mode where, depending on which team you are on, you will almost certainly die.

[Teralitha]

The problem with your idea... is that it cant be 8 vs 8, because if it was... what reason would the scattered 8 have to retreating when their numbers are the same... plus all they have to do is bring ECM ravens and you will never find them....


You can have the same kind of thing happen by adding Team death match, where some lone fast light is left alive and the winning team must hunt for them.... if that occurs...


So I think what you really want.... Is no respawn Team death match.

Edited by Teralitha, 16 December 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Parmeggido, on 16 December 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

This has become my favorite thread, because not only does it avoid sounding like a bunch of whiny children, you above posters have actually been doing some good brainstorming. So, good job, and likes for everyone (yaaay)!

Anyway, there are a couple of definite hurdles to overcome. For example, the retreating team is put at the start into a bad position. They are set up for failure, which is why this is a retreat. So a big question is how to encourage them to actually retreat instead of clumping up and simply blowing away the pursuers. Another thing that concerns me is repair costs, because as stated, you are retreating at this point, which would mean you are already overwhelmed by your opponents.

As far as actual suggestions, I think it would be interesting to add an environmental effect, something like a solar storm, which cuts down on sensor range, something like from the ~900m it is now to something like 500m. Then, make it so that this is countered by BAP, because with ECM, BAP isn't worth much right now, and something like this could be a great boost to its use.

I've always been a fan of hide and seek type modes, but in most cases they don't really have an effect on a players overall game. So if someone could figure out how to make an actual retreat the best viable option, while not making the retreating team so weak as to be constantly steamrolled, that would be a truly worthy achievement. However, until that can be accomplished, I feel that it would be hard to popularize a mode where, depending on which team you are on, you will almost certainly die.

It doesn't even have to be a Solar Storm, it could be a large area communications blackout from an orbiting jumpship, in order to facilitate the escape.
If done as a second stage battle, the pursuing team may be nearly as badly damaged as the retreating team. Say: Mechs that were destroyed in the previous battle are repaired to 75% health and ammo. That should even out the one-sidedness of health, remember that the retreating team is the only team that KNOWS where the extraction point is.
Since the retreating team's success is determined by their ability to escape, that would seem to be reason enough not to LOOK for engagement.

[Hotthedd]

Teralitha, on 16 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

The problem with your idea... is that it cant be 8 vs 8, because if it was... what reason would the scattered 8 have to retreating when their numbers are the same... plus all they have to do is bring ECM ravens and you will never find them....


You can have the same kind of thing happen by adding Team death match, where some lone fast light is left alive and the winning team must hunt for them.... if that occurs...


So I think what you really want.... Is no respawn Team death match.

Let's assume that the retreating team just lost the previous match. They most likely were not a bunch of ECM equipped light mechs. And even if ONE or TWO light mechs made it to the extraction point, that would not mean victory for the retreating side. An ECM equipped mech would probably best be served by escorting other mechs to the extraction site.

[Dirus Nigh]

I like the Idea of a fighting withdraw as a scenario.

I think this would work in two ways.

1) As part of a multie part match system for planetary conquest. If a team gets mauled in a match a fighting withdraw match could be next to see if they can recover. There would have to be an win condition like 50-70% of the withdrawing force needs to reach the goal line intact. The goal could be an easily defensive piece of terrain like a base, narrow pass in a set of canyons, the opposite side a river with a bridge crossing.

2) An escort mission. The commander of the withdrawing force is given command of assets like supply vehicles, civilian non-combatants, support assets such as artillery or other such vehicles that need defending. The withdrawing force would have to fend off the attacking force long enough to get the escorted vehicles to a safe location. Mission success and rewards can be based on many vehicles that make it to the goal area and what types.

The attacking force could have a counter objective by needing to kill or capture a specific set of vehicles They could be mobile command assets, supply trucks, or regaining salvaged equipment.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 16 December 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Tesunie]

Teralitha, on 16 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

The problem with your idea... is that it cant be 8 vs 8, because if it was... what reason would the scattered 8 have to retreating when their numbers are the same... plus all they have to do is bring ECM ravens and you will never find them....

No offense, but ECM does not equate to a cloaking device. You can still spot them, very easily I might add, if you know how. You want to see where an ECM unit is, there are two ways. Run around counting on your radar and seeing nothing (bad) and waiting for the ECM disruption to start showing (too late), or you can, say, use the Infrared Sensors and look around for a bit. I often find the ECM blob in matches and start to shoot them at really long ranges. Only map that doesn't work on well is Caustic, it's just too hot! They show up as a slight green against a blue/yellow (if I recall right).


As for the other ideas, good, but I was considering this as a single map, not a play set of missions. Each would be full repaired when they come in. I like the retreaters being spread out a bit. The thing is that they shouldn't be engaging. If they do, then even though they are on even par, they wont get the hefty C-bills from a win with so many tons of mech being saved. And I'd have it based on tons, not mech. Based on mech would mean everyone would field lights and rush to the safe zone. Heavies would reward more, making the lights want to protect the heavies to give them time to escape. If the whole team makes it, that would still be a lot of tons being saved. That would be one HUGE bonus. Where as, destroying the enemy would probably result in a default win, but I wouldn't have any win c-bills spread around, as you may have won by beating the pursuit force, but you failed to "escape"... just say reinforcements showed up... That was what I was thinking... but then it'd be up to the mods if they made this how they would force us to have it more run and escape than to attack and kill....