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plasma/lightning weapons


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#1 IMAZOMBIE

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:23 AM

i know firing lightning from a mech is way too high tech to consider but i would flip out like a cat on catnip if it were possible. ****, if it could be designed, im sure it would be used as an anti mech weapon because it would be such a great emp weapon. it would be like dumping a toaster into the tub.

in fact im not sure why people wouldnt when a mech walks into water...imma do that if a mech ever comes outta the water in real life...throw a toaster into the lake. but you get my point right? i mean yeah its waterproof but the mech would short circuit if the water was electrified. lightning weapons would be great because you dont need water. and it would be instantanious and would have unlimited range. it would also be effective because it does almost no damage physically other than superheating it. this would be most useful in terms of salvage because you dont need to make new parts or whatever. you get the whole mech.

plasma weapons? i think that by 3000 we would have plasma weapons. one of the coolest things when concerning the future is plasma-based weapons. you got lasers, missles/rockets, autocannons, and particle cannons. and machine guns but no plasma weapons? why?

actually i just read a wiki. ppcs are lightning cannons. i should be asking to instead make the way it fires look like it fires legit lightning instead of a concentration of particles.

still, plasma weapons?

Edited by IMAZOMBIE, 18 May 2012 - 06:41 AM.


#2 Banditman

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:27 AM

Honestly, PPC's look a LOT like a bolt of lightning being fired.

#3 Manthony Higgs

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:27 AM

PPCs are kinda like lightning.

#4 Kaemon

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:34 AM

Because it's too close to rainbows, and if we got plasma, we'd need plaid, then we'd need rainbows.

Then they Bronys win (and the Bronys can never win).

#5 Sheilei

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:35 AM

View PostManthony Higgs, on 18 May 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

PPCs are kinda like lightning.

Yup. Yup.

There are also plasma weapons in the table top game, but they are not developed until 3068.
And since the game will start in 3049 on the Battletech calender we won't be seeing any of those weapons.

Edited by Sheilei, 18 May 2012 - 06:36 AM.


#6 Atlai

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:50 AM

It would be improbable in aiming, lighting follows the path of least resistance making it extremely hard to aim, you would probably end up killing yourself or your team :)

#7 IMAZOMBIE

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:05 AM

View PostMason West, on 18 May 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

It would be improbable in aiming, lighting follows the path of least resistance making it extremely hard to aim, you would probably end up killing yourself or your team :)

HAW HAW HAW HAW made me laugh...
*thinks of carrying an epic-looking lightning cannon into the battlefield...it charges and all the other mechwarriors are like OH **** HES GONNA FIRE GET OUTTA HIS RANGE! then you fire and it goes BOOM and the bolt of lightning leaps from the point of the gun and HITS YOUR OWN COCKPIT and you explode....lol.

reminds me of how i was playing gow 2 with my brother. i was on a ledge in day one and this boomer is standing behind a car but aiming at me. im like OH **** and he says "..boooom...." and he just explodes all over the place BECAUSE HE HIT THE CAR HE WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF....i dont know why it was so funny but it was so hard to breath for about five minutes...but looking so badass in a mech and you fire and it leaps to your head and the whole head goes pop and flies off....that would be hilarious. speaking of which, will it be possible to knock the heads off mechs and do actual physical damage to the mech? wires and flaming electricals and such? i know that about the arm flying off but what if you shoot at the torso? no visible damage?

#8 IMAZOMBIE

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:09 AM

and what about balls of lightning? like statically charged ammunition or rockets. bombs? grenades? i just wanna see something explode and throw bolts of lightning everywhere like in borderlands.

and yeah its supposed to look like lightning. so im just saying make it look exactly like lightning. like...a trail of lightning follows the particle from the end of the gun.

Edited by IMAZOMBIE, 18 May 2012 - 07:11 AM.


#9 IMAZOMBIE

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:12 AM

View PostMason West, on 18 May 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

It would be improbable in aiming, lighting follows the path of least resistance making it extremely hard to aim, you would probably end up killing yourself or your team :)

also, is your name actually mason west? your first name is the same as the main character from the first novel.

#10 Mechteric

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:12 AM

View PostIMAZOMBIE, on 18 May 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

also, is your name actually mason west? your first name is the same as the main character from the first novel.


are you really a zombie?

#11 canned wolf

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:22 AM

We already know how to aim a lightning bolt. You ionize the path you want it to take and it will follow the path. A laser should be able to do the job. So, I've always thought of a PPC as a bunch of charged capacitors, and a big assed laser.

Modern military vehicles are already shielded against EMP, I would imagine future vehicles would be as well. Look up faraday cages if you're curious.

Edited by canned wolf, 18 May 2012 - 07:23 AM.


#12 Sheilei

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:22 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 18 May 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:


are you really a zombie?

I doubt he is. He is way too energic for that.

Seems you are really new to Mechwarrior. I suggest you head over here. It's stuffed full with all kinds of information.
New Players Start Here (Pretty Please!)

Most of the answers to your questions can be found here.

#13 Arctic Fox

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:32 AM

PPCs are not lightning guns, they're just particle cannons. Though apparently the effect is similar enough to a lightning bolt that there is such a comparison.

Plasma weapons do exist, though they only show up later in the timeline. You'll probably be disappointed with them since, unlike many other science fiction franchises which include them, they are not magic weapons and basically amount to giant flamers.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 18 May 2012 - 07:32 AM.


#14 Atlai

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 07:33 AM

View PostIMAZOMBIE, on 18 May 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

also, is your name actually mason west? your first name is the same as the main character from the first novel.

Yes Mason West is my real name :)

#15 IMAZOMBIE

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 11:31 AM

have you heard of the novels?

View PostSheilei, on 18 May 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I doubt he is. He is way too energic for that.

Seems you are really new to Mechwarrior. I suggest you head over here. It's stuffed full with all kinds of information.
New Players Start Here (Pretty Please!)

Most of the answers to your questions can be found here.

ive played through most of mw3 but thats it. though i spent most of the time being invincible and seeing which combinations of weapons are the coolest. i just like destruction.

#16 Atlai

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:10 PM

I have heard of the novels and want to start reading them.

#17 Owl Cutter

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 05:34 AM

I like the idea of laser-guided lightning, in large part because "laser-guided lightning" sounds so fun, but in larger part because I was introduced in early childhood to the concept of the electrolaser and its use for a Taser's electrodes, so it has a lot of sentimental value. Also, the plasma is just a side-effect; air is not a superconductor, so it heats up when you force current through it. Calling a lightning projector a plasma weapon is kinda like running some one over with a truck and calling that truck an acoustic weapon because it makes enough noise to be potentially unpleasant. The directed-energy weapons in battletech are all VASTLY more powerful and sophisticated than would make sense for laser-guided lightning, anyway. Much more importantly, lightning by itself is a pitiful weapon and wouldn't be of concern to even today's armored combat whamdoodles if they were designed with it in mind. Modern aircraft are designed to safely handle being hit by lightning, which they do all the time. I'm pretty sure we can safely assume it is not a threat to a Battlemech.

PPC are fluffed as producing "man-made lightning," but to my knowledge it is not explicitly stated that this is the source of their threat value; quite the contrary, in fact, they are explicitly described as "kinetic weapons" that are effective because they deliver lots of kinetic energy, secondary radiation, explosive effect, thermal stress, and even an EMP effect. Here, the lightning would be to the PPC's main damaging phenomena more or less what the plasma produced by lightning is to the thermal and electrical effects the discharge can deliver; vanishingly small by comparison. It would be moderately threatening to unprotected infantry, though- or rather, would if not for the other effects.

To understand what this means, you need to understand what a death ray is in the first place, and I'll start with lasers since they are probably the most familiar type for most people and because I have a very handy link if you want to read in more depth than my shallow overview offers:
http://panoptesv.com...y/DeathRay.html
First, laser death rays capable of competing with guns are a stupendously amazing engineering feat. So, you wanna destroy that 'mech with thermal strain? Well, for a very good laser, about 10% of your input energy becomes output laser light and the other 90% becomes waste heat for you to deal with- and that's not including whatever waste heat your power source generates, or from the likely specialised power supply hardware you'd probably need, (to store up energy until you have enough for an attack) or the very powerful and focused active cooling you would need to keep the gain medium from getting all cooked like your target. (Active cooling moves heat from one place to another, but adds some heat of its own since it is physically impossible to do any work without generating waste heat.)

The most promising way to shoot stuff to death with light seems to be with a type of death ray we call a "blaster," because it concentrates the laser pulse into such a small space and time on the target that it heats where it hits enough for it to instantly explode. You use a series of hundreds of these pulses, so concentrated that the whole series takes only a fraction of a second, so you have a chance of putting most of them in the same place. The idea is to blast a little bit off, give just enough time for the blasted bit to get out of your way, then blast some more out the bottom of that crater, and repeat until you've bored deep enough to hopefully break something important under the armor. This pausing between pulses is required because all of the light frequencies that we might possibly be able to make lasers for can either go through air but not plasma, or vice-versa. As such, the little bits you are removing become perfect armor for your laser since turning them into puffs of plasma is a side effect of this method of drilling through armor. (or flesh, if that's your thing) If your laser could just shine through that plasma anyway, you would have to defeat all of the air between you and your target since air is opaque to most of the light that shines through plasma. The light that can go through both is called Gamma radiation, and would make for a stupendous weapon except for the unfortunate fact that we can't focus it. Maybe future discoveries in physics can show it to be at least theoretically possible, but it still won't stay focused; when going through anything other than vacuum, it scatters fast. The most common interpretation of Battletech lasers, at least for physics geeks, is a vacuum UV or similar laser so that we can have separate "standard" and "pulse" lasers, which requires that the weapon itself probably has to deal with the beam at or near the intensity that is used to drill into the target; if you use a beam that's wide at the emitter and focused down to a point on-target, you have to defeat several times more air to reach your target since air is opaque to these frequencies. Fortunately, there's actually a "have your cake and eat it too" mechanic called filamentation. I'll leave it to the death ray specialist to explain that one:
http://panoptesv.com.../SelfFocus.html
The TL:DR of filamentation is that EM radiation affects matter since matter is made of stuff that interacts with EM force, and an intense enough light changes the speed at which light travels through air. It just happens, luckily, that it changes in such a way as to literally create a fibre-optic cable out of thin air, so if you focus your laser to a high enough spatial power density, it starts keeping itself focused until it loses enough power (from interacting with air) to no longer be capable of this self-focusing. These filaments are needle-thin, which is perfect for efficiency since you have less volume of air to get through. The kind of power level required is good for making a really big blast; the light itself wouldn't hit very hard, but the violently exploding plasma and hunks of blasted-off armor would deliver a lot of momentum, and the plasma would be moving fast enough to produce a nice EMP- which may or may not be important. Of course, there would also be a lot of heat, which also may or may not be important. Personally, I like to imagine that both are important to a Battlemech, but that should be left for individuals to decide based on "rule of cool." Okay, so now you have a rough idea of what a laser death ray would do at interstellar travel tech level, next is the other broad class of death ray, and my favourite: matter beams!


The basic idea is, you push bits of matter at your target fast enough to be dangerous. Where this differs from ordinary bullet guns is that the projected particles are much smaller and faster. They are hurled at relativistic velocities, which means "very near the speed of light." It also means that these projectiles behave more like light than bullets in most ways. Classical Newtonian mechanics are not perfectly accurate, but close enough for our purposes and probably easier to understand, so I'll explain in these terms and then the numerical difference between this and the more accurate Einsteinian model. First, momentum is a measure of mass and relative velocity. Momentum is always generated in such a way that all of it balances out, and this is a physical law; pushing your rocket exhaust in one way pushes you in the opposite way, and pushing your bullet one way creates recoil pushing in the opposite way. The standard symbol for momentum is P, for mass is M and for velocity is V, so:
P = M*V

Now, kinetic energy is a measure of mass times the square of velocity, or:
E = M*V*V

As you can see, then, kinetic energy is a measure of momentum times velocity. Now, as you probably know, "very near the speed of light" is a pretty high range for velocity, so our matter beam weapon will enjoy very low recoil in proportion to the energy it delivers to the target. In fact, it will be less than a hundred times that of a laser of same output power, unless you get way closer to the speed of light than there's any reason to bother doing. Now, as for the inaccuracy of this physical model: the actual momentum as per Einstein's model is going to be the momentum under Newton's model, but multiplied by a variable called the Lorentz Factor, whose symbol is Gamma. This is:

(1-B^2)^(-1/2) where B is the magnitude of velocity in units of C (as in, "speed of light" C)

In as close to plain english as I know how to put it, you divide your projectile velocity by the speed of light, in the same units of speed of course, then square the result, then subtract this square from one. You then take the square root of this difference and divide one by this square root to get your Lorentz Factor. It probably looks all weird and random, but I see "one over the square root of [whatever]" so often in so many subjects, I am amazed scientific calculators don't have a "to the power of negative one half" button to simplify that. I don't expect you to be looking up the speed of light in your preferred units and evaluating Gamma for a bunch of sample values, so here's a couple I remember from a table some one else computed for me: for 99% of C, Gamma is a bit less than 8. For 99.9% of C, it is a bit less than 24. As you can see, you can get "close enough" to the speed of light, and you'll have a whopping 24 times the recoil of a laser that outputs about the same energy. So, what happens when these very light and now light-like projectiles slam into the target? Well, it's pretty much the same as when light does; they transfer their kinetic energy to the target, which is mostly converted into heat. As with lasers, for a matter beam death ray this heat is most likely going to be used to heat up the target and create an exploding mess of plasma with all the same fun stuff like pushing the target and EMP effects. As you can see, a _properly futuristic_ death ray is not just a thermal weapon, but also a plasma weapon and an EMP weapon. This is why I find ray guns more appealing than bullet guns, at least in a far-future setting with things like Battletech dropships capable of throwing around enough energy to make re-useable thrust bricks a viable alternative to more sensible spaceplanes.

Okay, how about the kind of "plasma weapon" that is not also a beam weapon? First, the functional distinction between a "particle weapon" and a "plasma weapon" is whether the particles have enough time to interact with each other enough to behave more like recognisable plasma than a spray of non-interacting particles. In other words, a plasma weapon is more like a bullet gun such as Battletech's autocannon and Gauss Rifles than it is like a PPC. Strictly speaking, we already have plasma weapons today. They are called flamethrowers, were invented in Ancient Greece IIRC, and recently banned by international law because burning to death is just an ineffably, stupendously horrible way to die. In battletech, there are two different weapons called "flamers." One consumes fuel and does yucky stuff to targets, the other supposedly produces a similar effect by using the stupendous energy available to a battlemech to superheat air and/or engine fuel and spray that at a target. Both types of Flamer have very short range, since trying to spray plasma far would be even harder than trying to spray steam very far, and letting the fuel-consuming one spray burning liquid instead would make the more futuristic Flamer useless by comparison. The fuel-consuming one is not terribly much different from the Battletech Plasma Cannon and Plasma Rifle, though. A Plasma Rifle's ammunition is a special plastic, which the weapon heats all the way to a plasma state, or at least until a lot of it is that hot, then throws it at the target. I like to imagine it all being one simple step; zap the fuel, and the resulting expansion blows it all out the muzzle. The Clan counterpart, the Plasma Cannon, is pretty much the same except that for some reason the Inner Sphere Rifle deals mostly normal damage with some heat, while the Clan Cannon just deals lots of heat. There's also a Battletech infantry weapon called the Needler, which the Plasma Rifle seems to be based on. It is pretty much the same idea; flamethrower-type thing using a futuristic energy source to heat plastic ammo, except that the needler shoots a big mess of sharp flechettes instead of a giant flaming bullet; kinda like a shotgun that shoots nails made of incendiary agent instead of balls of metal. Since laser pistols and "rifles" are common infantry weapons in Battletech, why they can't make a heat ray that would be much more practical than a Needler is a mystery.
In case you've been... conditioned by poop culture "science fiction" which depicts plasma weapons as firing magnetically contained pellets, that's actually less practical than shooting lumps of steam, with enough per shot to scald some one, contained by the same sort of wave that contains a smoke ring; if you can produce such a wave powerful enough to carry that much steam fast enough to get to your target before it cools, the steam would be pointless since the wave would pulverise your target anyway and the excessively heavy steam payload would just make it less efficient. Plasma follows the same rules for pressure, volume and density as gas does, specifically a very buoyant one. It also does not have an unusual specific heat, so the amount needed to heat something appreciably either occupies so much volume you're not going to deliver it all to the target in one moment, (think candle flame or blowtorch, or greek fire or napalm) or is under such pressure that the main weapon effect should be explosive rather than incendiary. (think high explosives) The analogy is not perfect, though, as magnetic confinement of plasma is very difficult. Like balancing two toothpicks stacked on their ends, on top of your finger, there is mathematically a balanced state, but the system has a very strong tendency to evolve away from that state.

Edit: added clarification, fixed use of a wrong word, fought epic battle with gods of parsing and formatting

Edited by Owl Cutter, 19 May 2012 - 05:56 AM.


#18 Redshift2k5

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 05:45 AM

you're not allowed to say tl;dr and then post six more paragraphs :P

#19 Owl Cutter

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:05 AM

Sorry, I tried to add something after you replied and it broke all the whitespace. When breaking it up again, I tried to keep it at 6 paragraph openings after the magic word, not counting "edit" line. Dang, I am saving that text for later explanatory pasta until I find a web page that fills that purpose better.

#20 IMAZOMBIE

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:12 AM

View PostArctic Fox, on 18 May 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

PPCs are not lightning guns, they're just particle cannons. Though apparently the effect is similar enough to a lightning bolt that there is such a comparison.

Plasma weapons do exist, though they only show up later in the timeline. You'll probably be disappointed with them since, unlike many other science fiction franchises which include them, they are not magic weapons and basically amount to giant flamers.

aww...i was hoping to see something like a giant ball of plasma like from doom 3(the bfg) or something from halo.





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