156 replies to this topic

[Chunkymonkey]

Who do you think would win in a 1 on 1 match, primary model. I think Warhammer because first of all, it's got 5 tons. After that, the Warhammer has better armament(in my opinion). The thunderbolt does however have more armor(three tons) but the Warhammer could pick it off from long range with the dual PPC's.

Edited by Chunkymonkey, 23 May 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[Sleeping Bear]

Make it nice and simple, Thunderbolt hands down. All the T-bolt has to do is get under the Warhammers PPCs and it would be all over. the T-bolt has a better close range weapons package and would tear up the warhammers lighter armor. Heavy arm mounted weapons on a lightly armored frame means it will lose those weapons pretty quick in a knife fight.

[Naughtyboy]

well...if i remember right Warhammer does not have the heatsinks to keep those PPCs rock ,so i say Thunderbolt

[Pheonixwolf]

I agree with everything sleeping bear stated plus the articulated hands would allow it to dominate in a Melee fight, anything other than fairly flat terrain and the Warhammer's either going to get LRMed to pieces or the TeaBowl's going to melee it down.
Warhammer has the harder alpha but the T-bolt has an overall better package.

[Chunkymonkey]

But in a field or in any long range dual, the Warhammer would pick the Thunderbolt off without him getting close enough for anything but the LRM's.

[verybad]

Umm, "all it has to do is get under the Warhammer's PPC range" is a bit of a stretch.

That's not an easy task for one, and even when you're right up against the Warhammer, it can still fire at the accuracy of medium range.

Also, it can fire all it's short range weapons with no heat.
2 PPC
20 longe range damage. (if all hit)

1 SRM-6
2 Medium Lasers
2 Small Lasers
2 Machineguns.
Average (if all hit) of 29 short range.

All short range weapons are in torso it can kick better than the Thunderbolt (heavier) or punch with a penalty of one to hit (not that big a problem) It can run and fire all short range weapons and be heat negative 4.

18 Heatsinks
10 tons armor

Versus the
Thunderbolt
1 LRM-15
average damage long of 8 medium (inside 15 range) 16

1 Large Laser
3 Medium Lasers
1 SRM-2
2 Machine guns
average (if all hit) of 29 damage short range

13 tons of armor
14 heatsinks
Firing all it's short range weapons gains 4 heat, not including movement (necessary to "get under range"). Large Laser and MGs are on Right and left arms, so firing them stops punching.

So the short range for the Warhammer is better, and it can punch without not using it's weapons. It also has two weapons that have a change of killing the Tbolt with a single hit (PPC to the head, roll a crit, hit cockpit)

That's only a one in 36 chance per weaponsk but it's 2 chances per turn. The Tbolt has more armor, and armor is always good (always max your armor on customs) but the Warhammer has better firepower, and better heat control. The Tbolt can out range it with the LMM-15, but it doesn't have enough ammo to kill the Warhammer outright with that unless it rolls realy, really well.

Given equally skilled players, I see the Warhammer as winning 3 out of 5 tims, maybe slightly better. The Warhammer is a fantastic design even in 3025 TT, and the Tbolt is just not as good a design. It is a GOOD design, just not AS good.

PPC based designs in 3025 era mechs are generally tops.

The Tbolt HAS to get inside the warhammers PPC range or it's completely outclassed, and while it's doing that, the Warhammer isn't going to be ignoring it. Even at short range, the Tbolts can't punch if it wants to use it's Large laser and 2 machine guns. While it can kick, the Warhammer has the option of doing either, and it's likely the PPCs will have torn up enough of the tbolt's armor while it's approaching that the multiple short range weapons on the Hammer will cause crits.

Edited by verybad, 18 May 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Sassori]

Warhammer Leg armor is pathetically light. Doesn't take much to get through it. PPC's don't really outrange a Large Laser by a ton either so the damage difference isn't huge. LRM 15 + Large Laser is comparable to 2 PPC's for long range.

I'd give it to the Thunderbolt.

Facing off against lighter mechs the Warhammer can generally kill a threat faster as two ppc's means more likely internal structure hits than the Thunderbolts primary weaponry but overall... Thunderbolt I think would win.

In certain situations sure one wins over the other, but that's called balance and 5 tons is not a game changer.

[Chunkymonkey]

Remember that for a thunderbolt to get within range of melee combat, he lets the Warhammer bring its short range weapons into affect. Even if he can match it, he is only up by one large laser and has to deal with more heat. Assuming that they tied in damage at long range, at short range the Warhammer could alpha strike without heat problems(nothing extreme at least). And like verybad said, the Warhammer's PPC's probably concentrated their firepower on a single spot while that LRM's on the Thunderbolt likely scattared on all body parts of the Warhammer.

[Panzer Faust]

I think the Warhammer and Thunderbolt are designed for different roles and are both rather efficient at what they are to do. That being said, it leaves to many woulda coulda shouldas in the question.

Variations such as...

starting range...

terrain on the field...
(not just LOS blocks but tempiture modifires come into play. water gives heat reductions as do fighting in arctic environments. Lava based environments play havoc with heat consumption so one must be careful there.)

tactics used by the pilots...
(I would say pilot skill but I assume they are equals so I said tactics instead. one does not equate to the other)

which variant of the named mechs are being used.
(yes the 3025 Warhammer can't fire both it PPCs without heat build up but the 3050 design not only has ER PPCs but can fire both of them with 6 heat to spare)

It would be a pretty close fight actually. Both mechs are of the same speed so one is not going to outmaneuver the other very quickly.

The Thunderbolt has more armor but the Warhammer has more firepower as a counter.

Most people see the ER PPCs and decide to get close which is all fine and dandy but the Warhammer also has 2 medium laser 1 machine gun and an SRM6 with an anti missile system for defense. The 3025 Warhammer actually has more close range weaponry 2 medium lasers 2 small laser 2 machine guns and an SRM6.

I am not actually saying the Warhammer would win, I am just pointing out the benifits of the mech as those who have posted thus far have only posted the Thunderbolt's

Oddly enough if you are talking 3025 the Thunderbolt actually has the range advantage with its LRM15 and the anti missile of the 3050 Warhammer system does not exist yet. The pilot might just want to stay at range and plunk away the Warhammer. This advantage fades in 3050 when the WHM-7M with an anti missile system and ER PPCs arrives on the field.

All in all, it will be a real knock down drag out heavy mech BRAWL!!!

DING DING DING!!!

IN THIS CORNER...

Edited by Panzer Faust, 18 May 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Creed Buhallin]

I've honestly never understood the love for the Warhammer. It's not as bad as the Rifleman, but certainly in the same category - too many weapons for its ability to manage the heat and underarmored for its weight class.

The Warhammer's range advantage is minimal:

19-21: T-Bolt 15, Warhammer 0.
16-18: T-Bolt 15, Warhammer 20
10-15: T-Bolt 23, Warhammer 20

Even given missile spreads, LRMs come into medium range sooner. And for that 5 point damage advantage, the Warhammer gives up a lot of armor. It also can't keep up with the heat during the long-range duel - it builds 3-4 a turn while the Thunderbolt runs perfectly cool. That means the 'hammer has to start cycling out a PPC every third volley or so to keep heat manageable.

But One v. One, the armor is what really decides this. 50 points worth of armor different is a huge difference. And with armor that thin, scattering 5-point groups over the 'mech is arguably a good thing. The T-Bolt can absorb dual PPC hits in any of its major locations without breaching, and most locations have a lot left over. Any two hits from the T-Bolt connect in the same spot on the Warhammer, excepting the CT or arms, and you're looking at the next shot being internal. And once the two close to range for the lower-powered scattering weapons like MGs and SRMs, all those gaping holes are going to mean serious problems for the 'hammer.

Despite the weight difference, the Thunderbolt is pretty much a better vehicle in every way.

[Chunkymonkey]

Honestly it could go either way in 3025 but in 3050, the Warhammer wouldn't have to get close with the ER PPC's and AMS. In 3025, it would actually be a worse idea to be go inside PPC minumum because then you would face a superior short range alpha strike because of less heat genarated.

Mostly it would depend on terrain though

[Paradat]

verybad, on 18 May 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Umm, "all it has to do is get under the Warhammer's PPC range" is a bit of a stretch.

That's not an easy task for one, and even when you're right up against the Warhammer, it can still fire at the accuracy of medium range.

Also, it can fire all it's short range weapons with no heat.
2 PPC
20 longe range damage. (if all hit)

1 SRM-6
2 Medium Lasers
2 Small Lasers
2 Machineguns.
Average (if all hit) of 29 short range.

All short range weapons are in torso it can kick better than the Thunderbolt (heavier) or punch with a penalty of one to hit (not that big a problem) It can run and fire all short range weapons and be heat negative 4.

18 Heatsinks
10 tons armor

Versus the
Thunderbolt
1 LRM-15
average damage long of 8 medium (inside 15 range) 16

1 Large Laser
3 Medium Lasers
1 SRM-2
2 Machine guns
average (if all hit) of 29 damage short range

13 tons of armor
14 heatsinks
Firing all it's short range weapons gains 4 heat, not including movement (necessary to "get under range"). Large Laser and MGs are on Right and left arms, so firing them stops punching.

So the short range for the Warhammer is better, and it can punch without not using it's weapons. It also has two weapons that have a change of killing the Tbolt with a single hit (PPC to the head, roll a crit, hit cockpit)

That's only a one in 36 chance per weaponsk but it's 2 chances per turn. The Tbolt has more armor, and armor is always good (always max your armor on customs) but the Warhammer has better firepower, and better heat control. The Tbolt can out range it with the LMM-15, but it doesn't have enough ammo to kill the Warhammer outright with that unless it rolls realy, really well.

Given equally skilled players, I see the Warhammer as winning 3 out of 5 tims, maybe slightly better. The Warhammer is a fantastic design even in 3025 TT, and the Tbolt is just not as good a design. It is a GOOD design, just not AS good.

PPC based designs in 3025 era mechs are generally tops.

The Tbolt HAS to get inside the warhammers PPC range or it's completely outclassed, and while it's doing that, the Warhammer isn't going to be ignoring it. Even at short range, the Tbolts can't punch if it wants to use it's Large laser and 2 machine guns. While it can kick, the Warhammer has the option of doing either, and it's likely the PPCs will have torn up enough of the tbolt's armor while it's approaching that the multiple short range weapons on the Hammer will cause crits.

I think your numbers are off

PPC = 10
Lrm15 = 15
SRM6 = 12
SRM2 = 4
Med laser = 5
Large laser = 8
Small laser = 3
MG = 2

Edited by Paradat, 18 May 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[WolfSpider]

I voted for the Warhammer and if its in the game and I really hope so I am going to drop the small lasers and the machine guns and add 2 more medium lasers to the torso and then one ton of armor to the legs. Which should allow it to fire all the secondary weapons and move with very little heat. 32 possible damage points at close range.

[Paradat]

Damage is so close on theese mechs that a fight could come down to Armor , so Thunderchicken has the advantage

[Solis Obscuri]

I'd say it's a bit dependent on range, and luck. The Warhammer has a bit better firepower at all ranges, but the Thunderbolt is better armored. The Warhammer has more direct-fire damage at mid-long range, but the Thunderbolt has more crit-seekers. This situation reverses at very close ranges (<180m). Neither 'mech can sustain firing all their weapons at close range, though they can fire at mid-long range without having to alternate volleys too much. Both can fire their short-ranged weapons without excessive heat build-up, and can alternate fire with one long range weapon. I'd give the Whammy's PPCs an edge in ranged fighting, and the Thunderbolt's armor an edge at closer ranges, but on TT, I think it mostly comes down to who makes better use of cover, or who gets lucky and crits an ammo bin first.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 18 May 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[Steinar Bergstol]

The 3025 Thunderbolt is, quite frankly, my all-time favorite heavy. A tough as nails brawler capable of engaging at any range. Armor plating superior ot equal to many mechs of a heavier weight and, for the era, quite acceptable heat management (remember, 3025 mechs for the most part run hot if you fire everything. No such thing as get-out-of-jail-free double heatsinks at that time). At first look the Warhammer may seem as capable in close as the 'bolt (and yes, I love the 'hammer as well), but the difference lies in the armor. Specifically the leg armor. By the time the two have closed the distance they are bound to have stripped some armor from eachother, and the Warhammer's leg armor is not impressively thick in the first place. A 13-point kick from the 65 ton Thunderbolt will almost breach a fresh Warhammer's leg armor. One with only as little as 3 points of damage to the leg _will_ score internal damage. And once your legs are gone you are in serious trouble. The Thunderbolt, on the other hand, has almost double the leg armor of the Warhammer (29 points vs. 15 points on the hammer) and can more easily weather damage to them without finding itself crippled.

Neither mech would come out of the fight undamaged, however, but for me the 'bolt takes it. It's a classic stand and deliver type mech which would make a solid center to any heavy defensive or offensive line, yet strangely underappreciated by many compared to the more famous Warhammer or Marauder. The Thunderbolt takes a licking and keeps on kicking.

Edited by Steinar Bergstol, 18 May 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Xaks]

When firepower is close to equal, armor wins.

[Chunkymonkey]

WolfSpider, on 18 May 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I voted for the Warhammer and if its in the game and I really hope so I am going to drop the small lasers and the machine guns and add 2 more medium lasers to the torso and then one ton of armor to the legs. Which should allow it to fire all the secondary weapons and move with very little heat. 32 possible damage points at close range.

I would drop everything but the SRM 6 and PPC's and add in six more heatsinks(since their are no double yet) and fill the remaining tonnage with extra armor.
I could Alpha strike repediatly...Yes i spelled it wrong but im to lazy to check.

Edited by Chunkymonkey, 18 May 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[GrimJim]

T-bolt.

I've fought both Hammers and Marauders several times piloting one of these & win each time. It comes down to armor and heat management really. Two things the Bolt does MUCH better at.

Most dbl PPC users are either conservative, firing every other round to stay cool, which your much thicker armor (208 AR vs. 160 AR) shrugs off, or they're berserkers looking for the quick kill, firing both and overheating in short order allowing you to finish him off.

The big thing is the pairing of the Lg. Laser and LRM-15. It doesn't take many shots to breach a Hammer's armor. And once you do the 15 lets you keep distance (and/or indirectly) find critical after critical. The Hammer's crit seekers are all short range but with multiple Medium lasers and SRM's (arm them with infernos if you want to make the contest EVEN quicker), the Hammer pilot is often slow to close with the Bolt.

Try it on MegaMek. You'll find the same results if you use an Archer vs. the Warhammer as well. (With the Crusader its one of the most underrated unseens in the game)

[McDuff]

I would vote for the Thunderbolt because it packs comparable damage to the Warhammer, but has an armor advantage, But what should happen is have both mechs in the game at release and we can actually fight it out and see.