61 replies to this topic

[Kaspirikay]

Dragons have never been popular. Probably loadout issue.

From what I gather, Dragons are heavy flankers, not many people like playing that role because you can't go head to head against most mechs.

[EyeOne]

Apoc1138, on 17 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

I've noticed zverofaust likes posting lots of new threads about how certain things occur more often than other things in game with no actual data to support his view point, purely his perception which may or may not be skewed by the fact that sometimes he notices things and other times he doesn't

is this because something is better or the code is broken, or perhaps he's just bored and trying to create a problem where there isn't one?

I think he just loves to hate this game.

[El Penguin]

Maybe when bigger maps come out, mechs like the dragon will become more popular also?

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

I like the Dragon, I have it mastered and I even filled up the module slots on one variant. It is kind of... sub-optimal though. The fact that it is the bottom of it's weight class doesn't help, but it does mean that it will always be the fastest heavy.

The main issue though is that it's hardpoints aren't in the best places. CT missile hardpoints severely limit what you can do with them, the energy hardpoints can be weird, and any extra ballistics beyond one are kind of pointless IMO.

I'm really hoping that my dedication to the Dragon chassis will be paid off with the addition of a nice hero mech eventually, we'll see

edit: Figured I'd also add that piloting a Dragon feels a lot like driving an old Buick. It's got that huge hood that wobbles like it wasn't put together right, huge engine makes it fast while the weight makes it clumsy at speed, and it's even got kind of a hoopty engine sound. I like those things about it.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 17 December 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Like many said, it is the new and shiny mech. I have the Ilya, so I use it due to the booster.

I am getting a bit tired of the Cataphract, but I will probably buy 1 more chassis so I can build up the XP tree (I have only 2 chassis now).

Once the Cataphract tree is filled out, I will probably just run the Ilya occasionally with the Cat K2 or Cat C1. The Cat (for the most part) is still my "goto" heavy.

[zverofaust]

Apoc1138, on 17 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

I've noticed zverofaust likes posting lots of new threads about how certain things occur more often than other things in game with no actual data to support his view point, purely his perception which may or may not be skewed by the fact that sometimes he notices things and other times he doesn't

is this because something is better or the code is broken, or perhaps he's just bored and trying to create a problem where there isn't one?

So are you denying that there are far more Cataphracts in games than Dragons?

[Khobai]

The Dragon is unpopular because its hardpoints are garbage.

1) the dragon is meant to go fast and have a big engine
2) but if you have a heavy engine you cant use multiple ballistic weapons
3) all the dragon variants except the 1C need -1 ballistic and +1 energy hardpoint because energy weapons are the best weapons for fast mechs
4) the dragon also needs its center torso fixed because it gets cored way too easily.

Edited by Khobai, 17 December 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[Penance]

because more bigger.

Edited by Penance, 17 December 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Only House Kurita (and maybe the FFR) fields the dragon in force, while House Davion and House Liao field the Phract. And House Davion has a bigger Military than the Dragon???

[Murphy7]

70 tons is a real sweet spot in the Heavy mech class, you can get a lot out of it.

The Cataphract-3D with the Jump Jets can be fitted to be a pseudo Thor, Victor, Grasshopper, etc. It's a silly fun mech, I really enjoy it myself with an AC/20 and four medium lasers.

The Cataphract-4X has loads of ballistic mounts, this amuses some people. I like it as a dual Gauss platform that actually looks like a dual guass platform. It's a feast or famine mech for me... either I get to snipe with relative impunity, or the lights come and ****** alive. There is no middle ground. The low slung arm mounts for the Gauss are not kind to making use of cover, so the Gausscat is a superior build if you are serious about performance.

I forget if it is the Cataphract-1X or 2X, but I have a build with 2 medium lasers in one arm, a medium pulse in the other, two ER PPCs in the torso, and 20 double heatsinks. I call it "DERP" and despite any sense, the thing seems to work pretty well and I can fight in it.


Cataphracts are not pretty, their hitboxes are huge, and the low slung arm mounts are a pain to aim with, and the torso twist and arm traverse is crippled. All that, and it still manages to be a fun and entertaining ride in MW:O.

[Kraven Kor]

Two Words:

MOAR. DAKKA.

The Cataphract is a touch bigger, so more armor, more guns, more ammo. It has better overall hardpoints as well. Only advantage Dragon has is speed and a bit of a smaller profile.

[hammerreborn]

Cause Cataphacts can go dakkadakkadakka all night long.

Dragons go dak....aw my arm Fine..pew pew

[MeiSooHaityu]

hammerreborn, on 17 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Cause Cataphacts can go dakkadakkadakka all night long.

Dragons go dak....aw my arm Fine..pew pew

And...that is the reason I stayed away from the YLW too

[Vernius Ix]

Phract has much better firepower.

[Apoc1138]

zverofaust, on 17 December 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

So are you denying that there are far more Cataphracts in games than Dragons?

I see dragons every round... do I see as many as cataphracts? maybe not... but maybe the cataphract is just newer and so more people are trying them out... it doesn't automatically make the dragon a bad mech and the cataphract a great one... my perception is that I've also killed far more cataphracts than dragons, so my anecdotal evidence suggests that if anything the dragon is better as it's more survivable

but I totally expect anyone to disagree with the above as it is only my perception based on nothing other than a guess

I don't have any actual data... if I was going to start a thread on the subject I probably would write something down each round to give an actual basis for comparison rather than just pure perception

Edited by Apoc1138, 17 December 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[Sol Fin]

As for the op question - it's a combination of things in a Dragon:
1. Specific play style - you're not a good brawler. You have speed advantage, so usually you need to flank or go for the backs of the mechs. At the same time you should not put your back into risk - so you need to be at least average in piloting and awareness to make it work.
2. Loadout specifics. 2 of 3 variants must have ACs fitted and have 2+ ballistic slots. But at the same time to put 2 AC guns usually you'll need XL engine (no stock variants have XL). 2 from these 3 ballistic slots are in 1 arm with 9 slots, so you can't put 2 UACs/5 there for example. Only like UAC-5 + AC-5.
3. Specific role - you have speed, so usually you could be a good heavy scout. But no variant have neither XL engine nor ECM suite. So you can scout and earn spotting XP and CBs, but you need to be careful with it
4. Don't compare Dragon to Cataphract - compare Dragon to some other medium or heavy mech without a hero variant. and which is not a trial mech. Like a centurion, or a catapult. Difference is not that big.

And yes, Cataphract is much more popular then the Dragon. From my last 20 matches (I do fly a dragon), I got only 3 other pilots in Dragons. At the same time each match there was at least 2 Cataphracts in a match.

MrLiNcH, on 17 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

Aren't you thinking of the Centurion? Right arm gone, I still have 2MPL, 2ML and an SRM6... and still going 90kph... I will still ruin your day (and have)

Only on one variant. Others have limited amount of energy hard-points and have to put some heavy ACs in there.

Edited by Sol Fin, 17 December 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Grissnap]

There are a few dedicated Dragon pilots in my unit (we are also Kurita affiliated, so this probably has an effect), but from what I've seen, its a lot more complicated and difficult to be effective as a dragon. Whereas Cataphracts are pretty straight forward mechs. Point crosshairs, shoots, kill.

My favorite heavy is definitely the Catapult. I personally like that a lot of Cataphracts are slow and so I can use my relative speed to stay in the perfect range and TAG/LRM them to bits. If they get up close, then its a bit scary though!

[Rhent]

Run a Cataphract with 2 UAC/5's and 2 Large Lasers with the heat sinks to handle it and 225 rounds, now compare that to a Dragon. The mobility you get from a dragon doesn't make up for the firepower of a Cataphract. Now factor in macroing the rounds to fire for the UAC/5 and its a destroyer.

[Ryebear]

Because the Dragon is a harder chassis to use effectively. It sits kind of between an effective weight for weapon tiers. You choose between two energy hard points on the arm or two missile hard points on the CT (which sucks btw), and it takes a huge investment to get up and running to max efficiency (300 XLs are expensive). The large CT also makes it a poor brawler, it's too slow to be an amazing striker. It excels at mid range fire support though, but that's a difficult niche to learn.

Cataracts on the other hand are much easier and lend to boating a primary weapon type with a secondary type to support it very very well. This as a guy working on Master level Dragons while saving for my 3rd Cataphract (I'm gonna get the 3D)

[Rhent]

Grissnap, on 17 December 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

There are a few dedicated Dragon pilots in my unit (we are also Kurita affiliated, so this probably has an effect), but from what I've seen, its a lot more complicated and difficult to be effective as a dragon. Whereas Cataphracts are pretty straight forward mechs. Point crosshairs, shoots, kill.

My favorite heavy is definitely the Catapult. I personally like that a lot of Cataphracts are slow and so I can use my relative speed to stay in the perfect range and TAG/LRM them to bits. If they get up close, then its a bit scary though!

The only problem with the Cataphract is the recent change to their arms for targeting. They cut their arm targeting in half due to a modeling issue. I believe it was due to the crosshairs for the arm sitting deadsmack middle in the bar in the canopy. So the Devs moved the arm crosshair way to the left of the bar.