48 replies to this topic

[P e n u m b r a]

Why exactly is there so much crying about implementing a cone of fire system or some sort of convergence and all this rubbish about it being a balance problem? before you reply just stop and think for one second really think...

Now tell me why does EVERY successful shooter have pin point accuracy if its not fun? weapons in other games within their optimal range (including simulators arma II) are pin point accurate yes there is projectile/bullet speed, but there is all ready that here. Why is it good enough for all those other games that somehow manage to maintain a balance, yet its not good enough for the average mwo player to the point they are convinced its impossible to balance? No other games has a form of random cone fire. The time to kill in mwo is much much longer than any FPS out there so yes it does feel like you are shooting a heavily armored target. There is no cone of fire in other FPS anyone who has played them and is good enough to understand them knows this your first 2/3 shots land at the cross hair and the cone in those games is actually a weapon kick that you can handle with skill it is in place to balance fully automatic weapon systems that would otherwise have crazy time to kill, however any weapon with a re fire rate similar to mwo lands at the cross hair every time!

I keep reading this is Mechwarrior or this is battletech or this is a sim it should be like this or it should be like this, all this talk crying about "cheese" builds its nothing but an opinion what you got people from a very mixed background here people who play tabletop or people from the 90s dusting off the joystick going up against people who have played shooters (this is a shooter by the way) and getting rolled going to the forums then complaining about it basically all this random cone and convergence stuff is basically people who cant aim trying to limit other players so it no longer matters if you can aim or not so they can stand a chance I have spectated people on who have whined on the forums and say "oh point and click alpha is not hard hard etc etc" yet you watch them and they cant aim to save themselves its just horrible to watch. People should not be allowed to run across the open and not get punished for it

Bellow is exactly what is going on here and is its a real problem when you consider the average is the majority...

https://en.wikipedia...ory_superiority

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[FupDup]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Now tell me why does EVERY successful shooter have pin point accuracy if its not fun?

So does this mean that Call of Duty, Battlefield, Team Fortress, Counter Strike, etc. aren't successful?


By the way, not all solutions to convergence require randomness or cones. Here is a very good example from HomelessBill of a solution that allows for some pinpoint accuracy but makes it harder to do it in large spurts: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

The player retains 100% control at all times, and all effects are predictable. No randomness whatsoever.

[Sybreed]

yes, it's an issue

/thread

[GingerBang]

So you are saying this game SHOULD be like every other shooter? Why don't you go PLAY another shooter then instead of being a pompous {Richard Cameron}. You realize illusory superiority applies to your argument as well right? Obviously not because that's where the Illusory comes in.


Also, i'm not getting rolled. Convergence makes the game tooooo easy. Childish ****** like you wouldn't understand. Sometimes people enjoy using skill, sometimes people like to flex their brain and have to think out their approach, instead of just going point and click.



I don't understand the argument about "oh, other games are good so this game has to be exactly like them!" Why don't you just go play that other game then if you want to hump its leg so much?

Edited by GingerBang, 17 July 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[P e n u m b r a]

FupDup, on 17 July 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

So does this mean that Call of Duty, Battlefield, Team Fortress, Counter Strike, etc. aren't successful?


By the way, not all solutions to convergence require randomness or cones. Here is a very good example from HomelessBill of a solution that allows for some pinpoint accuracy but makes it harder to do it in large spurts: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

The player retains 100% control at all times, and all effects are predictable. No randomness whatsoever.

eh cod TF2 and cs are all pin point did you even read the post... projectiles exist in mwo (tf2) weapon kick CS there are no automatic weapons in mwo but pop a bullet on any weapon there at the recycle rate of any mwo weapon id love to see the bullet grouping results!

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[TOGSolid]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Now tell me why does EVERY successful shooter have pin point accuracy if its not fun?

Lolwut? The list of games with it is drastically shorter than the ones without.

[PhoenixFire55]

Very few people suggest 'cone of fire'. Its probably the worst of all suggested convergence fixes out there. If you think that these stupid heat penalties for boating weapons gonna change anything you are wrong. We need a convergence system change otherwise this game will remain broken.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

What other games had their rule set adapted from a table top game with random hit locations?

What other games out there have humanoid robots with multiple destroyable parts?

OH WAIT!

None.

[TOGSolid]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

eh cod TF2 and cs are all pin point did you even read the post...

Um, no they aren't. TF2's weapons have variable spread depending on the weapon. Some are pinpoint, some aren't, much like Quake 3 or UT. CS is DEFINITELY not pinpoint like MWO. Claiming it is just shows you've never played it.

[Otto Cannon]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Now tell me why does EVERY successful shooter have pin point accuracy

So much fail in one thread. A perfect illustration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[P e n u m b r a]

TOGSolid, on 17 July 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Um, no they aren't. TF2's weapons have variable spread depending on the weapon. Some are pinpoint, some aren't, much like Quake 3 or UT. CS is DEFINITELY not pinpoint like MWO. Claiming it is just shows you've never played it.

no long range weapons are spread in tf2....

and they all do have pin point accuracy you ignored half the post cognitive dissonance and selective reading going on you hit at your crosshair with anything designed as a markman weapon even assault rifles land on their first few bullets?

the only ones that spread are automatic weapons designed for close up where where the target is larger..

the fact you cant understand this is crazy

Edited by Le0yo, 17 July 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Artgathan]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

https://en.wikipedia...ory_superiority

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes

I have a BSc. Psychology and your definition is way off. All individuals suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, not just "unskiled" individuals. Everyone perceives themselves as better than they actually are, including you. People also do not rate their ability as "much higher than average", they simply claim to be "above average" (unless they know they are obviously not). This also only applies for "good" traits, such as intelligence, appearance and happiness. Very rarely will people tell you that they have "above average" levels of mental handicaps.

As to your other points, other successful FPS do have cones of fire (as mentioned above), and the time to kill in mechwarrior is only higher than in other FPS if you compare two mechs of comparable weight. A 6 PPC stalker can one-shot any light mech (and most mediums), giving it a TTK equal to that of most modern shooters.

[FupDup]

Le0yo, on 17 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

no long range weapons are spread in tf2....

The only bullet-based weapon in TF2 without spread is the Sniper Rifle (and the variants of it).

[Ph30nix]

players are too lazy to actually be bothered to pilot well anymore, they want to jump into their slow lumbering assault mechs and just walk face first towards the nearest enemy, I see it every match i play in. They dont bother to use cover, they dont bother to try and stick with team they dont even wait to find out what types of enemies they have against them or where they are. They just head to the usual fighting zones and have at it until themselves or their target drops dead.

I mostly pilot lights and i have zero problem with convergence as is because i realize that this is a team game we are supposed to use teamwork to overcome anything we come across. We are not all rambo and we are not ment to be able to handle every single situation we come across.

Sorry this is a rock/paper/scissors game yes skill and pilot ability can mitigate any disadvantage you might have to a point but if skill is equal YOUR SCREWED!!!!

i have zero interest to play COD mechwarrior where the fastest clicker wins, zero teamwork is needed and we are all just rambo in battlemechs.

[Master Q]

Not only is it the issue, it is THE issue.

Pay attention and pull up some rug and I'll explain how this works.

Compare:

- Damage to a single panel of one AC/40 alpha strike (linked shots with perfect convergence that hit a single panel) versus accumulated heat: 12.
- Damage to a single panel by four PPCs, most likely perfectly converged when armlock is engaged. Accumulated heat: 32
- Make it four ERPPCs instead, remove the minimum fire distance but jump the accumulated heat to 44.

Contrast:

- Damage spread of a 40-LRM salvo alpha (either two LRM20s, four LRM10s, two LRM15 plus one LRM10, or another config) which spreads all over the targeted mech instead while also requiring target lock and minimum distance and accumulated heat: 12-16 depending on config.

- Medium lasers? You'd need 8 of them to get there. If you can find the chassis for it, accumulated heat is still 32while convergence is still arms/torso split and you have the fire-time to hold targeting = damage spread, not concentrated.

- Large lasers? 4 of them is 36 damage, heat is still 28 with all the downsides of the Medium Lasers still.

- Your favorite mixed-weapon loadout here. No convergence issue, especially if missiles and lasers are even 50% of it.

Only the first category creates the imbalance issue of 40 points going straight where it was pointed to a single panel with no drawbacks.

The problem is convergence. Do you get it now?

[SJ SCP Wolf]

While I don't agree with everything the OP said, I do agree that

Baddies whine on forums far far far more than upper echelon players.

Also convergence really isn't an issue at all. These are giant ******* robots from the future. They should be hitting at what they aim at you ******* dolts.

Unless you want to completely change the damage model away from sections (not going to happen) dealwithit.gif

Edited by SJ SCP Wolf, 17 July 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ph30nix, on 17 July 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

i have zero interest to play COD mechwarrior where the fastest clicker wins, zero teamwork is needed and we are all just rambo in battlemechs.

Uh, that's kind of what the game is now? A bunch of PPC/Gauss Snipers finding a spot and whoever can click the quickest while aiming at the center torso wins.

When I occasionally get matched with the really good players, that's the game in a nut shell.

[BlackBeltJones]

Currently the convergence in MWO is automatic and requires almost no skill or pilot input, other than moving the reticle over your target. That is at any range your weapons will automatically converge on a target and do (nearly) pinpoint damage, again all without any skill from you. If we decoupled weapons convergence then you would need to adjust your hold for each mounted weapon, this would require much more skill than the current auto convergence we have. You simply can not argue that the current convergence system reflects a higher skill level than a system with 1) no convergence or 2) convergence defined by a slider style mechanic. Just imagine trying to fire two pistols and hit one target at 50 yards, then imagine trying to hit the same target at 100 yards. To do so you will need to open your convergence up so the projectiles do not collide before they hit the target. MWO does this adjustment for you and most of the people calling for a convergence adjustment would like to see each pilot need to manage the aim and hold for each set of mounted weapons independently, thus requiring greater aiming skill.
To decouple the current convergence does not create a dice-roll or random hit mechanic and your comparison to other FPS is shortsighted because those games do not feature multiple mounted weapons (sometimes meters apart for one another) that can fire simultaneously.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Seems like alot of people here never played Q3-Arena/UT or Tribes back in the day. COD is a training wheels FPS for alot of reasons, cone of fire is one.

[Master Q]

I find it funny that he complains about liking instant-perfect pinpoint fire from games that operate on "bunnyhop constant jumping" or "look, we implemented button-click wallhugging to make things even more boring" mechanics.