310 replies to this topic

[Joe Mallad]

In another thread it was brought to my attention that in the Mech lab video with the Hunchback, its armor value is shown at 320 which is twice the armor value of the standard Hunchback in Table top. So... i went back and found the Table Top armor value of the Catipilt CPLT-K2 and guess what I found? In table top it is shown to have a armor value of 176. If you were to double that you would get 352... the exact number the CPLT-K2 has in the Mech Lab screen shots. It sure looks to me that while they seem to be using the ranges and damage numbers as close to Table Top rules as they can, they have on the other hand doubled the over all armor of the mech to give everyone a bit more staying power on the battlefield. And as I said in another thread, this would mean were it might take you 2 well place PPC shots to down a Jenner, (IF) this is the case with armor being doubled for all mech... that Jenner would now need to have up to 4 well placed PPC shots hit it to take it out.

[Eximar]

I suspect that testing showed time-to-kill was too short with standard armor values in 12v12 so they doubled it to keep people from dying too fast.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I frequently play MechWarrior 4: Mercs with Mechs built to meet TRO-standards as closely as possible...

... and a typical 30-minute match requires quite a few respawns for everyone involved.

[Arikiel]

Makes sense to me.

[Kanatta Jing]

They might have replaced double armor points with modified damage bleed.

Or double armor could just have been just for a certain set of tests or for the promotional videos.

Like I know they changed how Mech detection works for the promos, so that there would be more explosions and less sneaking around.

[Thor77]

I wonder if ammo will be doubled too. Because if damage is normal, ammo is normal, and armor is doubled, AC20s will only be fun for your first kill.

[Zakatak]

Mechwarrior 4 has tripled armor values, and I have no complaints concerning time-to-kill in that game. Considering that we only get one life, I think having doubled armor values is perfectly fine. I don't want matches to last 5 minutes.

Edited by Zakatak, 18 May 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Thor77, on 18 May 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

I wonder if ammo will be doubled too. Because if damage is normal, ammo is normal, and armor is doubled, AC20s will only be fun for your first kill.

I think Ammo is doubled because an AC/20 typically has 5 rounds/ton, but the vdeos always show the Mechs with 10 rounds.

However, I don't get why there's a problem here.

If Mechs have double armor, then it takes 2x the shots to deal normal damage.
If Mechs have double armor, then it takes 2x the ammo to deal normal damage.
If Mechs carry double ammo, then they can deal normal damage.

How is this unfair to anyone?

If you double the armor, you double the ammo requirements -> so you double the ammo, too. That's equal. No unfairness.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 May 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[Azantia]

A very sad turn of events. Score one for the Mech Assault / mainstream gaming crowd. So many things right PGI, but a very solid core concept ruined.

Welcome back to the days of everyone load up a Heavy/Assault.

/Disappointed.


Here was my response to the original thread, as Yousful refers to :

If they increase armor in any-way shape or form, it will break the balance of the weapons that have been established and that means it will be just like Mechwarrior 4, which means "more arcade-like", which is C-R-A-P.

We (the 1st Blackburn's Raiders) have been playing Mektek's free release of mechwarrior 4, with mech variants based on TRO/tabletop values for armor and speed (obviously cant change weapon systems) and even though the internal armor is still a little higher than it needs to be, it makes the game much much more fun, and more tactical. It also INCREASES the effectiveness of speed and mobility and makes heavy and assault mechs much more vulnerable in general.

If they change the armor values to an attempt to "help" those pilots who do things like stand still, or rush into enemy fire, then my prediction is they will lose a high percentage of the most dedicated fan base within a matter of months. (Someone asked me why : Because they will realize it is mechwarrior 4 all-over again. We dont want another horrible mutation like Mechwarrior 4.) Without the dedicated fan base, its only a matter of time before this "new influx" of community players finds the "next new shiny" game to play.

Its important that the new community players see and play the game that the old time players fell in love with. Not some altered, rainbow / arcade like mutation of the original. There is NOTHING wrong with the original values. Yes, you take a few good hits, you are down to internals. Welcome to life as a Mechwarrior.

If I have to hit a light or medium mech 5 to 6 times with a PPC to penetrate their extrernal armor, you wont see me playing for long.

Keep in mind a stock atlas (which is one of the most heavily armored mechs for the timeframe) can take 4.7 PPC blasts to the Center Torso before they go internal. it takes 8 PPC blasts in the CT to take it down completely (47 CT Armor, 31 Internal = 78). I expect that when a Jenner takes a PPC blast ANYWHERE, its down to internals, or damned close to it. Speed is its defense, not armor.

(Update : If the Armor Values are DOUBLED, It will take 16 PPC blasts (OR 8 AC/20 rounds!!!!!!) to the center torso to kill an Atlas or any other 100 Ton mech, as they can have the same armor values. Think of it this way : 11 Clan ER PPC Blasts. That means a Masakari Prime could Alpha Strike the Atlas TWICE in the CT and it will still be running around. That is completely F'ing stupid to anyone who has any knowledge of the battletech universe, Atlas, or no Atlas.
For you medium laser boaters out there, it will take you 32 Medium Laser hits to kill an Atlas.)

The Atlas is approximately 285% heavier than the Jenner

so by proxy of weight alone (Which in the Btech universe tends to loosely base a chassis' overall combat endurance on)
the Jenner should take approximately 2.8 PPC blasts (fully armored) before it goes down. Or in game terms, should have somewhere close to the range of 28 total armor (external and internal).

(UPDATE : Using the same standard as above : the Jenner would have 56 total armor/internal points in the CT, which means it could ALMOST (4 points away) survive an Alpha Strike from a Masakari Prime, and could survive an Alpha Strike and a Half from an Awesome. Likewise it Could survive 2 AC/20 hits to the CT, something most 50 to 60 ton mechs cant accomplish in Lore/TT.)

Lets look at the maximum armor allowance for a 35 ton mech

119 external armor or 7.5 tons.
9 Max H
22 max CT
16 Max RT/LT/RL/LL
12 Max RA/LA

keep in mind you have to split youre CT/RT/LT armor into front and rear. so, here is my conclusion

Shocker :
you can have 17 center torso armor, 5 rear, and *GASP* added with the internal armor (11) you get 28.

you are welcome
- Az

Edited by Azantia, 18 May 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[Azantia]

Prosperity Park, on 18 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

I think Ammo is doubled because an AC/20 typically has 5 rounds/ton, but the vdeos always show the Mechs with 10 rounds.

This keeps going from bad to worse. Low Ammo was the counter-balance to a hard hitting, low heat weapon like the AC 20. If you want extra ammo, use your available tonnage to add extra ammo. Doubled ammo values ONCE AGAIN gives the advantage to heavies and assaults who have more available tonnage for weapons...less tonnage devoted to ammo, more tonnage devoted to weapons.

Think of it like this :
AC 20 + 2 tons of ammo = 20 shots. That formula just gave you 2 additional tons from tabletop having the same amount of rounds : Thats 1 Medium Pulse Laser, 2 Small Pulse Lasers, 2 medium lasers, 4 small lasers, 32 (or 64 armor if doubled) armor points, 2 additional heat sinks etc...2 Machine Guns (+1 ton of ammo, which is actually 2!!).

So, another step in the direction of mechwarrior 4...grab an assault and go go go..../worried.

Edited by Azantia, 18 May 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[Zakatak]

Azantia, on 18 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

If they increase armor in any-way shape or form, it will break the balance of the weapons that have been established and that means it will be just like Mechwarrior 4, which means "more arcade-like", which is C-R-A-P.

Correct. Because obviously, the devs have no way to playtest the game and ensure it is balanced, because the game isn't readily available to them to test. They are clearly taking shots in the dark, making changes without consideration or thought because they don't care how the first Mechwarrior game in 12 years plays. You're are absolutely correct. My proof is just how MW4, which had triple armor values, was very poorly balanced compared to MW3 which used TT values. Video games are exactly like boardgames in every concievable way, and should be treated as such.

Double armor values are stupid. I know that I want to die to 1 small laser to the rear torso of my Jenner and have to pay 1 million C-Bills for repairs for my mistake. You aren't overreacting in the slightest, don't worry what other people might say.

Edited by Zakatak, 18 May 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Pvt Dancer]

Yeah... it worries me as well, specially when it felt like a fight to /not/ get ACs nerfed as DoT weapons. With armor doubled, why nerf any weapon then? Apparently lasers and the like are DoT at 1.5-3 second times. I guess the animation looks cool, but with double armors... I dunno.

All I can say is I hope there will be a 'hardcore' version that has TT Armor and Damage with damage overflow. This just feels like MW2 (non-hardcore) where it took an entire clip to drop a guy, so everyone ran around with dual guns like re-tards because sniper rifles and other semi-auto guns were worthless.

*MW= Modern Warfare 2, not Mech Warrior

Edited by Pvt Dancer, 18 May 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Azantia]

Okay Zakatak (nice name by the way...),
Look at the math above and tell me that is how you want the game to play and I will say, sure we can agree to disagree, but I think you should go back to Mech_Assault. Anyone else here who loves battletech and has a good grasp of how it plays according to lore want to defend an atlas able to take 16 PPC hits / 8 AC 20 rounds before it goes down?

Im not saying everything translates from tabletop to a computer game. But this is one of those things that doesnt need to change, just to accommodate poor piloting / poor tactical decisions.

Edited by Azantia, 18 May 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Bullwerk]

One thing is missed in the whole "The Sky is Falling" reaction to increased armor. Translation from TT hit toll based mechanics to manually aimed physics based game play. Any person with half a brain and some level of ability to aim a mouse and hit keys is going to be more destructive, more powerful, than anyone in TT.

The weapon scatter enforced by the randomness of hit location made it tough to kill mechs in a very few hits. You couldn't core a Jenner with 3 PPC shots unless you were lucky enough to get all your hits to hit the center torso. I recall MANY times in TT where it took an ungodly amount of time to take down a light because the hits just kept stripping of armor on different body parts.

In a video game where the player has a great amount of control over where the resulting damage from his weapons hits it is not just extreme luck that guides whether or not you can core your fellow MechWarrior's machine. Suddenly it is a very real proposition that winds up making even the best armored mechs seem like fragile glass cannons. It ruins the sense that these machines are layered in armor and intended to take a brutal beating before going down.

Given the aforementioned reality it is necessary to do something to make mechs seem as rugged as they are meant to be in the fiction and in TT due to the mechanics. Upping armor is one change that makes a big difference, Removing spill over damage is another method, as is bringing in weapon convergence. If balanced properly the sum total of these changes should make our machines feel as rugged as they are meant to. I trust that PGI has the desire, passion, and know how to make that a reality, with our input during Beta and beyond of course.

Just remember, any time you want to start talking about how things were in TT, and want to start using TT math to prove things, you MUST include the effects of probability induced by the need to roll a set of dice. If you do not account for the effects of probability then, well, frankly your math means nothing and is completely invalid. I see this same mistake made over, and over, and over, and over again in these forums. I would expect that anyone that played TT for more than 5 minutes would clearly and intimately understand the importance of those dice on the mechanics and feel of that game, and by association the whole BT universe as we lovingly know it.

[Azantia]

Ive heard the "dice" / randomness Argument 100 times before. Clan pilots can (and did) have called shots when using a targeting computer and could target just your CT. Likewise there were rules for "linked weapon fire" much like group fire in the electronic games, and when you shot them together, they would all hit the same location. (I never played these rules, but I know they existed.) So to just try to claim the dice excuse is not a full fledged defense. If you want to play in a game where an atlas can take 16 PPC blasts to the CT (keep in mind even the best pilots miss, we dont know how the hit boxes are being played out, AND a good pilot will make you miss even more than you already do) then you fall under the same category of agree to disagree.

To ignore the math however based on "dice rolls" before you even think about it is pure ignorance.

Edited by Azantia, 18 May 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

Azantia, on 18 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

A very sad turn of events. Score one for the Mech Assault / mainstream gaming crowd. So many things right PGI, but a very solid core concept ruined.

Welcome back to the days of everyone load up a Heavy/Assault.

/Disappointed.


Here was my response to the original thread, as Yousful refers to :

If they increase armor in any-way shape or form, it will break the balance of the weapons that have been established and that means it will be just like Mechwarrior 4, which means "more arcade-like", which is C-R-A-P.

We (the 1st Blackburn's Raiders) have been playing Mektek's free release of mechwarrior 4, with mech variants based on TRO/tabletop values for armor and speed (obviously cant change weapon systems) and even though the internal armor is still a little higher than it needs to be, it makes the game much much more fun, and more tactical. It also INCREASES the effectiveness of speed and mobility and makes heavy and assault mechs much more vulnerable in general.

If they change the armor values to an attempt to "help" those pilots who do things like stand still, or rush into enemy fire, then my prediction is they will lose a high percentage of the most dedicated fan base within a matter of months. (Someone asked me why : Because they will realize it is mechwarrior 4 all-over again. We dont want another horrible mutation like Mechwarrior 4.) Without the dedicated fan base, its only a matter of time before this "new influx" of community players finds the "next new shiny" game to play.

Its important that the new community players see and play the game that the old time players fell in love with. Not some altered, rainbow / arcade like mutation of the original. There is NOTHING wrong with the original values. Yes, you take a few good hits, you are down to internals. Welcome to life as a Mechwarrior.

If I have to hit a light or medium mech 5 to 6 times with a PPC to penetrate their extrernal armor, you wont see me playing for long.

Keep in mind a stock atlas (which is one of the most heavily armored mechs for the timeframe) can take 4.7 PPC blasts to the Center Torso before they go internal. it takes 8 PPC blasts in the CT to take it down completely (47 CT Armor, 31 Internal = 78). I expect that when a Jenner takes a PPC blast ANYWHERE, its down to internals, or damned close to it. Speed is its defense, not armor.

(Update : If the Armor Values are DOUBLED, It will take 16 PPC blasts (OR 8 AC/20 rounds!!!!!!) to the center torso to kill an Atlas or any other 100 Ton mech, as they can have the same armor values. Think of it this way : 11 Clan ER PPC Blasts. That means a Masakari Prime could Alpha Strike the Atlas TWICE in the CT and it will still be running around. That is completely F'ing stupid to anyone who has any knowledge of the battletech universe, Atlas, or no Atlas.
For you medium laser boaters out there, it will take you 32 Medium Laser hits to kill an Atlas.)

The Atlas is approximately 285% heavier than the Jenner

so by proxy of weight alone (Which in the Btech universe tends to loosely base a chassis' overall combat endurance on)
the Jenner should take approximately 2.8 PPC blasts (fully armored) before it goes down. Or in game terms, should have somewhere close to the range of 28 total armor (external and internal).

(UPDATE : Using the same standard as above : the Jenner would have 56 total armor/internal points in the CT, which means it could ALMOST (4 points away) survive an Alpha Strike from a Masakari Prime, and could survive an Alpha Strike and a Half from an Awesome. Likewise it Could survive 2 AC/20 hits to the CT, something most 50 to 60 ton mechs cant accomplish in Lore/TT.)

Lets look at the maximum armor allowance for a 35 ton mech

119 external armor or 7.5 tons.
9 Max H
22 max CT
16 Max RT/LT/RL/LL
12 Max RA/LA

keep in mind you have to split youre CT/RT/LT armor into front and rear. so, here is my conclusion

Shocker :
you can have 17 center torso armor, 5 rear, and *GASP* added with the internal armor (11) you get 28.

you are welcome
- Az

You have no idea what other values were also altered, like let's say weapon damage. The more significant figures you have to work with, the finer you can tune the damage system (which you would need, since lasers now do damage over time).

And as for the doubling of ammunition content? Ballistic weapons are flat out worse than Energy weapons in tabletop. Hands down. Ballistics can run out of ammunition, require slots and tons of ammunition, have time to target, can suffer ammunition explosions due to overheat, take up more space, weigh more, and still cause heat relative to their damage output.

They can use any advantage given to them; and remember, double the ammo means double the bin explosion damage.

You also forgot to mention that more health requires more tactics and shot placement in order to be successful. If I can hit a single location over and over, double the health widens the gap between me and someone who sprays shots evenly upon my armor.

Azantia, on 18 May 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Ive heard the "dice" / randomness Argument 100 times before. Clan pilots can (and did) have called shots when using a targeting computer and could target just your CT. So to just try to claim the dice excuse is not a full fledged defense. If you want to play in a game where an atlas can take 16 PPC blasts to the CT (keep in mind even the best pilots miss, we dont know how the hit boxes are being played out, AND a good pilot will make you miss even more than you already do) then you fall under the same category of agree to disagree.

To ignore the math however based on "dice rolls" before you even think about it is pure ignorance.

Except that even when targeting the center torso, they could miss. And that it was harder to hit that location as well. Human players with mouse and keyboard can be more reliably accurate than 2d6 and modifiers.

Edited by UncleKulikov, 18 May 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Azantia]

Okay. You guys want a game like Mechwarrior 4 ? Be my guest.

Doubled Armor Values takes us dangerously close to the territory of only Heavy and Assaults.
Doubled Ammo Values even closer.

These factors made many of the different mechwarrior leagues a "rush" fest....

I take it you guys liked the way Mechwarrior 4 played? : Let me load up a mech with more weaponry than it could take (cause of severely altered mech construction rules and proceed to rush the spawn over and over...

Thats the type of game you think battletech/mechwarrior is supposed to be?

Cause last I checked, if you rushed a team in battletech (even with the "2d6 dice rolls") you would be taken out pretty quick.
Hell if your WHOLE team rushed another team, you would most likely lose...

Battletech was the last true venue which was untarnished by the Mainsteam, sure companies attempted it (Wizkids, Microsoft) but luckly they failed. Starting to wonder if MWO is really going to be good for the Battletech brand.

But if the above is Battletech/Mechwarrior to you, then who am I to argue?

And its a great tactic to try and downplay my knowledge by suggesting that I havent played Tabletop battletech for "more than 5 minutes" I have played 20 years of tabletop battletech. But that high-nosed behavior is common-place among the Robinson Rangers these days. I guess I should expect no different from you in the forums.

The Dice is a way (albeit a bad one) of trying to simulate reality in the Tabletop game (yep thats right it works both ways, go figure.) Armor values are not broken, dice or no dice and my opinion is that it doesnt need to change. But PGI owns the game, so doesnt really matter does it? Good thing my opinions are just that : my own, and Im allowed to be disappointed.

Edited by Azantia, 18 May 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[Sug]

Any chance they doubled the ammo and armor values because having to reset the game every 4 min while you're beta testing is annoying as hell?

[Zakatak]

Azantia, on 18 May 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Okay. You guys want a game like Mechwarrior 4 ? Be my guest.

Until we play it, we have no idea what it will be like, and neither do you. Unlike MW4, where are alot of other ways to die now. Ammo explosions, excessive overheating, shots to the side torso (assuming the enemy has an XL engine).

None of us have an idea how it plays until we play it. If we join the beta, and it does end up like MW4, well, that is what beta's are for. PGI can lower the armor values should they choose to.

[Zelekin]

I do see some good points on both sides here in this debate. But what I don't see is any sort of concession from either side that while they disagree with some of the views the other side has, that a few of the worries and concerns the other side may have may be valid.

It seems that on the tabletop side is that the doubled armor value will lead to mindless assault/heavy mech gameplay and silly mech weapon loudout configuartion, and the other seems to be stating that keeping absolute table top math for armor leaves some mechs like light vulnerable to the lightest of hits bringing instant destruction, which this side of the debate claims is mitigated by the RNG chance of table top, yet less in a game setting because its "easier" for a skilled player to reliably land hits.

Truly, to me at least, it is not a clear cut matter, especially when PGI's stated goal has been to reduce mindless gameplay, with mechs having roles and needing teamwork, and that 12 assaults will lead a team to doom against a balanced team. But that could be marketing speak.

I don't have experience with table top and my experience with the games is limited, but this is a game which i'm interested in, and which i'm looking forward to at the very least trying, which is the point I will put forward tangentially: the game is not yet out, not yet in beta, and the information this debate is being based off of is a singular screenshot.

I suppose I summarize my position on this debate as one of balanced reactions, and a willingness to hear both sides of this debate. Being that I have not played much of the prior mechwarrior games, perhaps that is the reason I have less of a worry.