310 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Vexgrave Lars, on 21 May 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Dev's? Any response to this thread?

That is the singular question remaining, pertaining to this thread.

Honestly I think it's better if they stay out of this thread, and if they do become involved, lock it. It's turned into a pretty bitter flame war over a number we know nothing about gleaned from a screenshot at a press screening.

In other words, it's really silly.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Bullwerk, on 21 May 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Seriously? This is what the community is going to devolve into over something we know nothing about? I'm starting to regret actually associating myself with much of this community in the last few weeks. It's going to be embarrassing being labeled as part of this group when new players come calling after release. And it seemed like this was going to be the one community that was good enough to buck the trend of anonymous intardwebs stupidity. Guess that's what I get for hoping.

Leave children alone without clear instructions and they do as they see fit. Not always rationally, though I dont see any of your post Bullwerk reaching for fire extinguishers to try and douse the flames. If anything your fanning them, and I am at a loss as to why?

Again.. There is an explanation for the screen shot, numerical values, etc it may not be what we want, all or any of us for that matter.

But I'm sure there will be an explanation. And Bullwerk anonymous ..really brother that stings.

KCCO

Thank goodness they are just Canadians and only on a 3 day weekend. More holy men could be in prayer for a week or more. Gone that long and the whole thing would go to hell.

[Volthorne]

Bullwerk, on 21 May 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Seriously? This is what the community is going to devolve into over something we know nothing about? I'm starting to regret actually associating myself with much of this community in the last few weeks. It's going to be embarrassing being labeled as part of this group when new players come calling after release. And it seemed like this was going to be the one community that was good enough to buck the trend of anonymous intardwebs stupidity. Guess that's what I get for hoping.

[Solis Obscuri]

I don't see evidence of double ammo in the videos - both the Hunchie and Atlas carry 10 AC/20 rounds, and the Atlas has 240 LRMs (12 shots). I suspect that if armor values have been doubled, weapons damage may have been increased as well - possibly to better deal with fractional damage generated by DoT laser weapons.

Of course, that's just conjecture. Weapons damage may be per TT, and the heavier armor just compensates for the fact that weapons accuracy isn't depending on dice rolls, and players are likely to hit much more accurately and group damage better than in a TT game.

What I did find weird is that armor went up to 868 for the Catapult, and 700 for the Hunchback. Even with double-values, that would amount to 27 tons for the Catapult and almost 22 tons for the Hunchback - which just seems ludicrous.

[Sassori]

All of the things people want to stop, sniping, legging, insta-death alpha's coring your center torso can be done much more elegantly than increasing armor. All it takes is widening the reticule based on movement, heat, and even when tracking the target so that you cannot place the hit exactly where you want it to go. Range automatically becomes a factor as a smaller target means the shot might flat out miss more often.

If you're good, you should still hit your target more often than not and nobody needs to worry about sniper boats, they don't have to worry about getting legged from 600 meters by ER PPC's, they don't have to worry about the double large laser head shot.

If you want pin point accuracy, get nose to nose with your target. This benefits the lights who get behind a bigger mech (That is a big broad back after all) and it also benefits the lights in making shots miss them more as they'll be moving. Then it's all balanced and won't be over in ten seconds so people have time to play the game and have fun.

The point and click no skill types just don't get what differentiates MechWarrior from other FPS I guess. It's a shame.

I liked MechWarrior 2, 3, 4, and their expansions too, but it was never completely accurate (Slow moving ppc plasma balls in 2? Remember those?) and I always wanted it to be more accurate.

They should try to be more accurate to make their game the best, not super easy.

[Wolfe Ryatt]

Geist Null, on 21 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

lets be honest. everyone QQ's about getting headshot by snipers, everyone QQ's about getting missle boat slammed before you can ever reach your target. everyone QQ's about being melted to the core in one flash. everyone one QQ's about legging. everyone QQ's about tons,slots,ammo and heat. what is left? the devs are fixing things and making their way thru the old games, good and bad, and trying to balance what is broken. more armor numbers may seem like carebear tactics to some but its to protect you in the long run from everything we hate most about the old games. things will be different in MWO, your going to see an unprecidented level of tactics and combined arms in play. how long will your atlas last when an entire lance targets your beaconed arse AND a commander drops an airstrike on your location? i want to use a 40 ton medium mech. i cant do that in any game including table top without making special circumstances happen I.E. no heavy/assault mechs in play. so lets all hold our breath till the beta happens and then give a reasonable opinion on how the game plays

Essentially why I'm in favor of the increased armor values. I want to see a diverse group of Mechs on the field.

[Marson Wells]

Azantia, on 18 May 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

I didnt even take into effect the "no damage bleed over" into the double armor argument....that makes it worse. Ha.

A turn in tabletop is 10 seconds......just to clarify...

I think you missed the point. It may be that a turn represents 10 seconds of 'game time', but it doesn't account for how long it takes the players to resolve the turn in real time. He was talking about real time. In my experience with table top games in general, this can be anywhere from 1-2 minutes to half an hour.

[GaussDragon]

Kudzu, on 21 May 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Bring me your mouth breathers, your twitch junkies, your boaters, your poptarts... maybe you'll accidentally bring someone worthwhile into the community.

QQ

[Pvt Dancer]

Wolfe-Ryatt, on 21 May 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

World War II Online aka Battlefield Europe.

Not true. I had shots miss all the time in the 2 years I played and beta tested it.

[Bullwerk]

Vexgrave Lars, on 21 May 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Leave children alone without clear instructions and they do as they see fit. Not always rationally, though I dont see any of your post Bullwerk reaching for fire extinguishers to try and douse the flames. If anything your fanning them, and I am at a loss as to why?

Again.. There is an explanation for the screen shot, numerical values, etc it may not be what we want, all or any of us for that matter.

But I'm sure there will be an explanation. And Bullwerk anonymous ..really brother that stings.

KCCO

Thank goodness they are just Canadians and only on a 3 day weekend. More holy men could be in prayer for a week or more. Gone that long and the whole thing would go to hell.

I've tried to point out alternative reasoning for the changes, tried to speak a bit about maturity and levelheadedness in all of my posts. I don't think any person here has a monopoly on intelligence or math. As I've stated none of the math presented is wrong it just can't be assumed that it is wholly correct in the absence in of other data. I suppose I could break out some massive math to show the effects of various changes and additional assumptions but I don't feel the need to do so when I do math all the time and get paid for it.

Also none of my pontificating is actually aimed at anyone one individual, not you my friend, Azantia, or anyone of the others in this forum. It is more a comment on the general trend in the community as a whole recently. You are right about the behavior of children, I just truly expected more from us as a group. I hold no ill will against any one individual, in fact quite the opposite, I'm just getting cautiously pessimistic about the long term health of our community going forward..

[Kudzu]

GaussDragon, on 21 May 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

QQ

Thank you for so elequently proving my point. Maybe you can "pwnzer" me later.

[GaussDragon]

Kudzu, on 21 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Thank you for so elequently proving my point. Maybe you can "pwnzer" me later.

Says the pot to the kettle.

[thrashdog]

Late to the party here, but I have to ask: to all of you who complain that MW4 was all assaults, all the time, were we playing the same game? Because the assaults I remember were giant stonking easy-to-hit targets. Sure, they could carry a crapton of ERLLs, but I think the problem was more with the hitscan laser mechanics rather than the armor value of the assaults. Most of those guys were pop-tarting anyway, so chances are they were skimping on armor points to start with. It's clear from the videos we've seen so far that laser hit mechanics are drastically different this time around. Even in MW4, maps that didn't cater to the ability to instantaneously put 48+ points of damage on a single point 800 meters downrange could support a lot of maneuver and position warfare that let lights and mediums punch above their weight class.

And lest anybody doubt that I know what I'm talking about... I was one of the top five or ten runners on the MWL McRugby ladder. I would regularly pilot Dashers, Ullers, and Fleas with all their armor stripped off to make room for bigger engines, and run them through a gauntlet of ground-shaking, ERLL-spewing assaults and fast heavy tacklers. When I wasn't threading flags between the legs of Daishis and Gladiators, I was socking it to mediums and heavies in a short-range Puma. I won't say I melted faces, but most of the time I did alright. PGI has stated their intent to level the playing field even further, and I won't complain, but even if they hadn't, I'd still be happy to pilot a Jenner or a Hunchie and let somebody else draw all the enemy fire in his Atlas.

[Grotonomus]

Arden Sortek, on 21 May 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

There has to be a reason the Devs added more armor. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened.....

^^^^^

[Pappy]

wow all of this from a video and screen shot from a closed beta in its opening stages, and everyone is ready to jump off a bridge. everyone take a deep breath

[The Doc]

So an Atlas may take 16 hits to the centre torso to take down?

WOW! Thats a lot! Its almost as if its a bad idea to shoot the toughest mech in existence in its strongest armour!

Doubling armour values means you don't have much of a chance of being 1 shotted, no matter who you are, light or heavy, which is great. In a game where there are no respawns, one shotting should NOT be possible!

Firing at places other than the centre torso should be a good idea in order to try and prevent overall attrition. taking out your opponents best weapons in order to fight on your terms while they hit your centre torso to just get the quick kill.

Light mechs also have bonuses in this format:
- 1. Shooting an enemy in the centre torso with your weapons is generally a bad idea, so dont do it. Take out their systems and shoot them in the ack.
- 2. Role Combat means that not every single mech should be a DPS machine. Just because a light mech cant fight a heavy 1-1 doesn't mean they are useless, it just means they should be doing things other than fighting heavies toe to toe.
- 3. An Alpha Strike should *hurt* it shouldnt necessarily *kill* otherwise the game will devolve into fights to get the Alpha strike.

So yes, I am for the Doubling armour because i love longer matches with more tactics to them than *Shoot in centre torso > Win*

[Claw55]

Pappy, on 21 May 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

wow all of this from a video and screen shot from a closed beta in its opening stages, and everyone is ready to jump off a bridge. everyone take a deep breath

Probability of rage hindrance: Zero Percent.

Edited by Claw55, 21 May 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Kudzu, on 21 May 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Thank you for so elequently proving my point. Maybe you can "pwnzer" me later.

I find it darkly amusing that threads on legging, guns and 'mechs have all stayed incredibly civil with differences of opinion but a single thread about an unknown armor detail has poisoned everybody so badly here.

[AimlessSpectre]

Okay, this is just getting silly.

Lets just say, for the sake of simplicity, that we don't use the 'real' armor values, just so we can have nice whole numbers.

Lets just 'develop' a senario where, under 'base' conditions, the light and the heavy come out even, such that the 'weapon damage' on the light is sufficient to outpace the 'armor' on the heavy.

Some thing like:

-light: 200 armor, 300 damage

-heavy: 3000 armor, 20 damage

these numbers are obviously not something you would see on a mech in game or in the table top but because there is no way, to my knowledge, to 'evenly' compare a light and a heavy without taking into account the practicalities of actual play, i presume we can accept the inflated values? In either case both will 'die' in ten shots from the other. Now, leaving weapons the same and doubling the armor we get

light: 400 armor, 300 damage

heavy: 6000 armor, 20 damage

That is a significant armor disparity, but notice that it now would take 20 shots for either to die from the other. The change is relative and I'd wager you could repicate this with examples using the actual numbers if not for the fact that a light will always lose to a heavy when the scenario is based purely on damage and armor alone. Comparing % armor gain, etc. is irrelevant when they maintain the same relative disparity.


I look forward to being harshly disproven,

-Aimless

[Belisarius1]

Victor Morson, on 21 May 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Honestly I think it's better if they stay out of this thread, and if they do become involved, lock it. It's turned into a pretty bitter flame war over a number we know nothing about gleaned from a screenshot at a press screening.

In other words, it's really silly.

Right, so this whole thing is just speculation? Nobody wants to say and I'm damned if I'm digging through 14 pages.