100 replies to this topic

[Sifright]

Elder Thorn, on 17 December 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

of course it's about fun, but the grind is an important factor for this game

Grind should never be important, it might be important to impart progression and a sense of improvement to players but to make the grind actively hostile is a terrible idea.

first so you don't see everything in a short time.
second so people actually want to buy the premium time, if you can't lose money, there is no need to buy this

not true, you will still need c-bills to buy new mechs and new equipment the repair + rearm wasn't the C-bill sink you think it was it just meant every one ran energy mechs for money. my preference was a cicada that cost me 20k on a match where it was ruined because **** bringing anything costly to a match when i wanted money (this is behaviour we don't want to encourage.)

, and i am sure there are enough people out there who don't buy premium to SUPPORT the devs, thats what most founders bought the founers package for, premium time is bought for own comfort.

Instead there will be much more incentive to buy mech bays instead which lets be honest is a much much better hook for money as new players being forced to get premium to experience the base game is a losing proposition.

you got me slightly wrong, maybe beause i can't express what i think perfectly in english.

fair enough, I know what its like to try and express your self in a second language it can be hard to impart the subtler implications of what you are trying to say.

Thing is: They want to remove afkers with this patch, but i don't see this happening. People should LOSE money when playing bad, not win money, be it 1k c-bills.And thats what would actually be fun for me, thats why Eve Online was fun for me -

This game isn't eve online I enjoyed that game as well but the problem is this game doesn't have a persistant world and CW isn't going to bring eve online style consquences to the game. If it truly went all the way that direction with out giving players the kind of tools eve did for money making it would be a huge mistake. In eve online you could manufacture EVERYTHING that could be bought.


i knew, if i play dumb and lose my ship, be it to AI or in PvP, i actually LOSE (ingame-)money. Same goes for World of Tanks, even with premium it wasn't always easy to earn enough for the upkeep your biggest tanks needed, and i liked that.

Of course the competitive part is the most important one, but with this system... why put in a currency at all?
Just let me select a mech and its loadout and then let me play.

Mechbays and cosmetic items. F2P lives on that. If you can get a huge player base the vanity items sell like hot cakes.


edit: damn it... fixed a major typo, i think the rest is ok^^




by definition? Definition from whom and from where?
By the way, that stuff is NOT unusable, if you use it good, you can use it, even now.

Responded in the quote with italics.

I understand where you are coming from I just don't think it's the optimal choice for how this game is currently headed.

I mean if we went with a crescent hawk mech warrior style game i'd be fine with an eve online style economy but we aren't getting that.

[Stone Profit]

More "Its the end!" before its even released for you to make an informed decision. Nice.

[De La Fresniere]

I actually like the change quite a bit.

R&R costs were ridiculous. On my Centurion, they wanted 142,000 after every death, which was absurd. Unless I cheesed the free partial R&R, I actually lost money on average. And that's on a Medium mech, I don't wanna know what people in Atlases paid...

Additionally, it was silly to be punished for getting better stuff. The better the mech and the more you invested in it, the less money you made? That's just not right.

Having the rewards based on performance rather than participation is great. People will finally have incentive to play decently well (before, getting kills and such didn't really make any difference). Additionally there will be no more free rides, so AFKers should disappear.

To get back to the actual thread subject... yes, C-bill bonuses were awesome because they increased gains before R&R was taken into account. If you had a 120,000 average gain and 100,000 average R&R bill, that would normally get you +20,000 per match. Premium (a supposed +50% bonus) didn't get you from +20,000 per match to +30,000 per match, it got you from +20,000 per match to +80,000 per match, which is actually +300%.

+300% bonus money was just plain insane. Now you'll be getting exactly +50% for Premium and +30% for Hero mechs, and those are very solid bonuses.

You're not getting hosed, you're getting exactly what you paid for.

[Kaspirikay]

Hey guys you know what this means?! I can finally stop over tonning on ammo for the 75%! MORE HEAT SINKS WOOOOO

[semalferuzA]

My repair costs are usually 30-80k after a game. ~75k rearm for my AC20/SRM ammo.

[Barnaby Jones]

those crafty devils are doing this to get us to stick FF on our mechs....

[Ghogiel]

Pugastrius, on 17 December 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Now, you certain had a huge repair bill, but a more reasonable of $40k Repair bill only has you "breaking even" for that stellar performance.

I think my hunchback 4p with medium lasers and a 260STD costs like 45k to fully R&R lol.

A 150,000 repair bill is not all that unexpected for an atlas with LRMs. Point is, and as can be seen, and as can be deduced from PGI's actions, repairs were basically nonsensical in their current implementation.

The most damning part of that is that without the premium bonus, that guy would have made 160k in total. With his 150k repair bill, he'd only come away with ~10k.

basically LOL

Edited by Ghogiel, 17 December 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I haven't read up on the subject personally from the command chair and it may totally suck but I do remember some quote about promoting general balance. Suppose we just have to wait and see but

welcome to beta.

[Major Scumbag]

So is there any reason to buy MC and get the premium time? Plus with the new changes to assualt battle grounds. Do not get any more for winning only killing. Take out the cap points and call it Death Matches.Dont even want to spend my cash on a game that changes the value of it. Maybe I should wait till release then I know what to expect. Sadly I was going to buy a month worth of premium time. After the sale of the "holiday items" and this.....Think I will keep my cash.

[Sifright]

Major Scumbag, on 17 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

So is there any reason to buy MC and get the premium time? Plus with the new changes to assualt battle grounds. Do not get any more for winning only killing. Take out the cap points and call it Death Matches.Dont even want to spend my cash on a game that changes the value of it. Maybe I should wait till release then I know what to expect. Sadly I was going to buy a month worth of premium time. After the sale of the "holiday items" and this.....Think I will keep my cash.

Maybe not premium time although your income should average out about the same so.... yes?

but maybe you want to get some mech bays to go with all those mechs you can afford now? Yes/no?

[Vexgrave Lars]

Sifright, on 17 December 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

Responded in the quote with italics.

I understand where you are coming from I just don't think it's the optimal choice for how this game is currently headed.

I mean if we went with a crescent hawk mech warrior style game i'd be fine with an eve online style economy but we aren't getting that.

That's an astute observation.. If you were here before closed beta you'd know that that was the concept.

A fairly deep game, with relatively solid adherence to the known material, both paper and cannon from Sarna. Things like damage, heat, repairs to your mech and maintaining your mechs equipment, organizations etc...

This has slowly drizzled down to PGI saying "We know the original concept, but meh."

Leaves a few of us, unbelievable as it may be, even more cynical than we started with.

[Asmosis]

Elder Thorn, on 17 December 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

i am really not convinced by this economy change... Some things were kind of balanced by rearm / repair costs, this is now useless.

There is no reason anymore to think twice about artemis or XL Engine on some mechs

You mean balancing factors such as losing RT or LT = dead mech, or the increased tonnage and crit slot requirements on atremis? The things that balance those items in every other version of the game? just checking.

afaik the current system is just a placeholder until CM arrives, since the contract system will most likely replace the current econ model anyway.

Edited by Asmosis, 17 December 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Sifright]

Vexgrave Lars, on 17 December 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

That's an astute observation.. If you were here before closed beta you'd know that that was the concept.

A fairly deep game, with relatively solid adherence to the known material, both paper and cannon from Sarna. Things like damage, heat, repairs to your mech and maintaining your mechs equipment, organizations etc...

This has slowly drizzled down to PGI saying "We know the original concept, but meh."

Leaves a few of us, unbelievable as it may be, even more cynical than we started with.

I hate to say this but any one that expected that out of a company with pgi's previous game record was so wildly optimistic it's unreal.

I mean i'd love to get that game as well.

If it does come it's going to take years and PGI is going to have go the route of making a reasonable combat game first because they don't have the resources to do it the other way.

Edit:

I would prefer that game to what we have.

At the moment I'll settle for making the game they can create the best possible by directing them into ways that actually work.

I think the biggest mistake they made though was the no wipes in open beta.

That really has kind of sealed their fate.

Edited by Sifright, 17 December 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Major Scumbag]

Sifright, on 17 December 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Maybe not premium time although your income should average out about the same so.... yes?

but maybe you want to get some mech bays to go with all those mechs you can afford now? Yes/no?

Very true. There is mech bays. Thanks

Sifright, on 17 December 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

I hate to say this but any one that expected that out of a company with pgi's previous game record was so wildly optimistic it's unreal.

I mean i'd love to get that game as well.

If it does come it's going to take years and PGI is going to have go the route of making a reasonable combat game first because they don't have the resources to do it the other way.

Edit:

I would prefer that game to what we have.

At the moment I'll settle for making the game they can create the best possible by directing them into ways that actually work.

I think the biggest mistake they made though was the no wipes in open beta.

That really has kind of sealed their fate.

If they made a wipe in beta...Then they couldnt charge for MC from the get go. I can only think what would happen if someone bought alot of stuff then they wiped and started over. Only games in beta that wipe are the totally free game. Not free to play.

[Sifright]

Major Scumbag, on 17 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Very true. There is mech bays. Thanks


If they made a wipe in beta...Then they couldnt charge for MC from the get go. I can only think what would happen if someone bought alot of stuff then they wiped and started over. Only games in beta that wipe are the totally free game. Not free to play.

yes this is also true.

The way around that would be to reissue MC after a wipe using DB migration and keeping track of purchase history.

[Secundus]

Pugastrius, on 17 December 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Quote
This Match would have made me 246k with Premium Bonus in the new system. Though in this match i had a repair cost of about 150k. So my income would have been 100k higher.[/color]


You would have gotten:

Quote


Base: $25,000
Salvage: $15,110
Damage: $38,900
Assist: $30,000
Kills: $15,000
Components: $2,500

Total (pre-bonus): $134,010
Total (post Bonus): $201,015

Prior: $240,255 (Less Repairs)



Now, you certain had a huge repair bill, but a more reasonable of $40k Repair bill only has you "breaking even" for that stellar performance.

You'll also notice that the "Bonus" from the premium time is actually 25% less than it was previously.... Coinciding with the OPs thoughts.

Just to clarify, since he was the top spot on his team, you missed the additional 100,000+ cbill bonus, which is pre-bonus. He would therefore make about 234,010 pre-bonus, so he should net 351,015 with premium.

Edited by Secundus, 17 December 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Lanessar]

I'm not entirely understanding all the angst.

1. This change is more friendly to new players.
2. This change rewards participation, rather than AFK farming. Kill (+assist) nets double the income over tagging and afking.
3. R&R costs are unrealistic until CW enters the game. Penalties and bonuses for being a lone wolf haven't occurred yet, since there are no houses, merc corps, etc. in-game.

It's dumbing down a smart system until all the components are put into place. Houses earn less, Merc corps earn more, lone wolfs get other bonuses, probably to salvage. This is how it works in the BT universe. But with several of those ingredients missing, the R&R costs drive away players that might otherwise be retained.

And as several of the posters who are griping said before this post was made (yes, I reviewed your post histories), "this is beta". Or how about:

Quote

That means you get paid for the DAMAGE, SPOTTING,KILLS, COMP DESTRUCTION, get hit (yes get hit, means you were at least in the battlezone) . GEt from Salvage of mechs you spotted or Damaged .

Not paid for wins or losses. If you win you get 50% bonus.

Or how about

Quote

Have any of you played ANY online games before? You don't get rewards for standing around doing nothing in any of them, you have to DO something to GET something, hence the term 'reward' instead of calling it welfare. WoW, LoL, WoT, CoD, BF3, and so on, if you do nothing, you get nothing. If you do something, you get something, it's literally THAT simple.

And who's being punished? You do nothing in a match, you get nothing, that's not a punishment, that's a LACK of reward, and the two are different things all together. Being punished would be if they subtracted cbills from your total amount or subtracted xp. See the difference there? Lack of rewards =|= punishment no matter how loudly you proclaim otherwise.

Or any of the rest of the detractors. It's a game. They are adjusting the system. In the right direction on one side, possibly bad in another (R&R removed). Let's try it out before you scream to holy heaven about how terrible it is.

Both of the above posters asked for the major changes in the general announcement post. There is another side PGI is testing as well, to see if it will work or not.

Test the changes. See what happens. Then complain. I didn't complain about DHS, Artemis, etc. until I played a match or five and then made my assessment.

Before this, it's just smoke. I get you want R&R; that's fine. Some don't, that's also fine. Somewhere in between will be the balance, I am sure. When has anything (XL engine repair cost, DHS, Artemis, etc.) ever not been tinkered with after player interaction and feedback?

[Wired]

Silly post!

Edited by Wired, 17 December 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 December 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Your missing the bonuses for assists and other support provided. My only grumble is its more profitable to help kill a mech than to be the hero.
Hi K&B!

Yeah what is up with that.... its good for me as I get way more assists than kills.. but really? wtf? Maybe this is so that the really good knowledgeable players will let the brand spankin noobs get some kills.. that way the new players will feel all mighty and cool and LOVE the game!!! well played PGI... well played!

[Mister Haha]

the OP is not factoring in damage, spotting, or anything else.

it's going to be a higher net for many, maybe even most.