19 replies to this topic

[Okie135]

This has been discussed somewhat in other threads, but I couldn't find a thread dedicated to it.

MWO put out a 3048 map a while back. I waited for someone to bring this up and, from what I saw, no one did. The map can be found here: http://mwomercs.com/...ner-sphere-3048

It looks pretty good right? I've thought about printing it out as a poster for a BT group I was hoping to start. However, the St. Ives Compact is listed as a territory of the Cappellan Confederation. This does not make sense to me.

History lesson and MAJOR SPOILERS if you have not read The Warrior Trilogy by Michael A. Stackpole.

Spoiler

In the Fourth Succession war, Canadace Liao, heir to the Capellan Confederation, had to watch as her nation fell to the predations of Hanse Davion and as her father fell into madness. During a raid by the newly born Federated Commonwealth on the Capellan capital world, she escaped with her future husband Justin Allard. As the Duchess of the St. Ives Commonality, she broke away from her father's realm to save her people from the war. The newly reformed St. Ives Compact lasted until 3061 when Sun Tzu Liao used SLDF troops to conquer it. In 3063 a treaty was established reintegrating St. Ives into the Capellan Confederation as a commonality.

Considering how House Davion practically annexed it with a mutual protection agreement, St. Ives shouldn't fall under the Capellan Confederation. Even if one were to assert that it were to small too be a faction in MWO, shouldn't it be neutral on the map, or listed as allied with the Federated Commonwealth?

Could the map be changed before game start? Should it be changed?

As a practical application, the Capellan raids against St. Ives during this period would provide great plot hooks for mercenary companies looking for work. This only works though, if St. Ives doesn't belong to the Capellan Confederation. Otherwise, why the raids.

Any thoughts?

Note: This isn't so much about whether the St. Ives Compact should be independent, as it is about why the map looks this way in 3048.

[trycksh0t]

Yeah, it bothers me a bit, but not overly much. Being the smallest of the Successor States, and with planetary control being a major point of MW:O, those extra 17 systems are sorely needed by the Confederation. Besides, the St. Ives Compact never stopped referring to itself as Capellan, and the Capellan-St. Ives Conflict was, legally, labeled an "internal Capellan matter." The Compact was, essentially, Capellan in every way but leadership.

Edited by trycksh0t, 18 May 2012 - 10:34 PM.

[Thom Frankfurt]

Wait... the St. Ives....who?

[Okie135]

I see your point trycksh0t, but I kinda disagree. Part of what made the Capellan Confederation interesting in this timeline was their size minus the St. Ives Compact. Romano crazy-pants Liao had schemes upon schemes to take it back. Full invasion never happened because they knew that the Federated Commonwealth would take it as an excuse to try and take the rest of Capellan space.

As for it being an internal Capellan matter, it was declared that by the Sun-Tzu Liao. Not exactly an unbiased third party. The only reason he wasn't removed for the use of the SLDF in his own private war, was the fact that there was a term limit and no one wanted a second clan invasion which would have been triggered by his removal and the subsequent dissolution of the new Star League. The Nova Cats would have been very put out.

Capellan culture was maintained, but without the difference of allegiance, a rather significant portion of BT history is left out. Besides, I want to see contract and counter-contract from these two. Even if they aren't independent, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be allied with someone other than the Confederation?

[Chunkymonkey]

Every time i read the books, i dont think that St Ives is BIGGER than the rest of the confederation, go pull up a map on sarna, it shows.

[Morashtak]

Finlandization - a term used to describe the influence that one powerful country may have on the policies of a smaller neighboring country.

After re-reading the St Ives entry it appears to me that it is under the sway of whichever House is holding it in their grasp providing the most protection. Don't make waves, go along to get along and all that.

"In Finland, the term "Finlandization" was perceived as blunt criticism, stemming from an inability to understand the practicalities of how a small nation needs to deal with an adjacent superpower, without losing its sovereignty."

Substitute "St Ives" for "Finland" and it becomes a bit clearer.

[Hayden]

I'd kind of rather see St. Ives be treated like the Periphery and simply not be open to conquest, rather than lump it in with either the Confederation or the FEDCOM. Of course, I'd like even more to see it independent, but that's another rant for another time.

Again, 3025-3028 is the best time period for this game.

[Kenyon Burguess]

because its a time of peace for them from 30's till 57/60. the clan invasion never reaches them. so theres no reason to include them in the game until hostilities do break out.

http://www.sarna.net...t._Ives_Compact

[Adridos]

Geist Null, on 19 May 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

because its a time of peace for them from 30's till 57/60. the clan invasion never reaches them. so theres no reason to include them in the game until hostilities do break out.

That's true. They never attacked, nor got attacked in this period.

[Okie135]

Chunkymonkey, on 19 May 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Every time i read the books, i dont think that St Ives is BIGGER than the rest of the confederation, go pull up a map on sarna, it shows.

Huh? Did someone say that somewhere? It's smaller, I just figure it should be neutral or under FedCom sway seeing as its the mutual protection treaty with them that protects the Compact.

There was no major event there in the time period, but there also wasn't a major event anywhere in the IS for the period. After the Ronin Wars ended, no one was making any moves until the invasion. (Even Hanse Davion and Takashi Kurita had a kind of unspoken agreement with the postings they assigned their sons.) So since MWO starts a few months before the invasion, I figured mercenary contracts would be based on brush fire wars and small raid of one house against another.

Ideally, I think it would be cool for the St. Ives Compact to be independent and treated like a minor power or periphery. (Some of those hold more worlds than the Capellans.) Then we could get contracts by the CC to stage a raid on the compact, or we could get garrison contracts to protect the compact.

If it's not treated as independent, then St. Ives should fall under the hegemony of the Federated Commenwealth. (Taking the example Morashtak put up about Finlandinization.) Even the heir to St. Ives, Kai Allard-Liao, trained at NAMA and joined the 10th Lyran Guards. That suggests that St. Ives is closer to being a protectorate of the Federated Commonwealth than they are to being a rebellious commonality of the Confederation. That, and politically, they were recognized as an independent state by the Commonwealth. Something that the Free Rasalhague Republic can also claim.

Edited by Clark, 19 May 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Forscythe]

They found out that making hair shampoos and conditioners were less likey to get them killed on the battlefront.

[Victor MacGregor]

Major battles in the St.Ives Compact, no. But lacking a state of war shouldn't discourage good-natured objective raids between friends

I am more disappointed that the Pirate Kingdoms are already being treated as non-existant on the map. I think it would be fun to get in one last skirmish with Redjack Ryan before the world goes topsy-turvy

Edited by Victor MacGregor, 19 May 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Chunkymonkey]

Kai is the son of the Advisor of the Archon Prince. That might change something even though there is still the possiblility that he likes the people who constantly try to kill him...Just a thought.

[trycksh0t]

Clark, on 19 May 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

I see your point trycksh0t, but I kinda disagree. Part of what made the Capellan Confederation interesting in this timeline was their size minus the St. Ives Compact. Romano crazy-pants Liao had schemes upon schemes to take it back. Full invasion never happened because they knew that the Federated Commonwealth would take it as an excuse to try and take the rest of Capellan space.

As for it being an internal Capellan matter, it was declared that by the Sun-Tzu Liao. Not exactly an unbiased third party. The only reason he wasn't removed for the use of the SLDF in his own private war, was the fact that there was a term limit and no one wanted a second clan invasion which would have been triggered by his removal and the subsequent dissolution of the new Star League. The Nova Cats would have been very put out.

Capellan culture was maintained, but without the difference of allegiance, a rather significant portion of BT history is left out. Besides, I want to see contract and counter-contract from these two. Even if they aren't independent, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be allied with someone other than the Confederation?

While Sun-Tzu claimed it was an internal Capellan matter, the Star League council recognized the conflict as a civil war, not an invasion or attack on another member state. Sun-Tzu's use of the SLDF Peacekeepers was, regardless that he manipulated events, justified, due to Smithson's Blackwind Lancers assault and attempted assassination of Sun-Tzu. Cassandra made matters worse to attacking SLDF forces upon their landing, which gave Sun-Tzu more justifiable cause to bring in additional SLDF units. Up until 3061, I am not aware of any attempts by the Star League council members to stop the deployments.

At the 2nd Whitting Conference, held on Tharkad in 3061, Candace brought her grievances about the conflict to the Council. They voted to remove SLDF Peacekeepers from Compact space. This is also when the League declared the conflict a civil war, by a vote of 4-2 (The Capellan Solution by Loren L. Coleman). Because it was deemed a civil war, the Star League could do nothing about it because it was, at that point, an internal matter.

And, just for the record, a Civil War according to the Geneva Conventions must meet 4 criteria:

• The party in revolt must be in possession of a part of the national territory.
  
• The insurgent civil authority must exercise de facto authority over the population within the determinate portion of the national territory.
  
• The insurgents must have some amount of recognition as a belligerent.
  
• The legal Government is "obliged to have recourse to the regular military forces against insurgents organized as military."

Now, I DO think that the Compact should be seperated from the Confederation, I'm just trying to give reasonings of why it hadn't been done. Devil's advocate, if you will.

Edited by trycksh0t, 19 May 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Krivvan]

Quick question, do we actually know how mercenary contracts are going to work in game?

Perhaps your faction is more a matter of your nationality rather than your loyalties (especially since being in a merc corp and being part of a successor state isn't mutually exclusive as far as I know).

Edited by Krivvan, 19 May 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Beazle]

I think they'd probably not want to implement too many different factions in order to keep matchmaking problems down.

That said, I'd still like to see them represented on a map, even if they're unplayable/attackable.

[Gun Bear]

I think its because they never actually mattered.

[Chunkymonkey]

You guys remember that his is 3049 right?

[Listless Nomad]

Check out this thread I created a while back. It started out here and was moved to off topic for somewhat dubious reasons - but perhaps they can be merged.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Evgeny Bear]

And noone seems to care about the Periphery states....