46 replies to this topic

[NagaoftheWards]

at lowest a nova vs company, but since elementals will probably not be included, binary vs company. our clan tech is good, but not that good. 5 vs 12 is too low a bid. it is asking for disaster, spheroids wills pit assaults against lights and mediums to regain their edge.

[Reoh]

Going purely by numbers doesn't account for tonnage\BattleValue or player skill\experience, nor does it factor in power creep.

[Hunson Abadeer]

The Adder/Puma Prime is 35 tons and has a 1,560/2,083 BV.

The Timber Wolf/Mad Cat Prime is 75 tons and has a 2,252/2,737 BV.

The AS7-D Atlas is 100 tons and only has a 1,557/1,897 BV!

It makes sense to have a Star against a Company. Giving Inner Sphere players only a +2 'Mech advantage in matches would be insane. You could have an entire Assault Company, and they could easily be overwhelmed by a mixed Binary.

Clan munchkins have all of the munch they need. The game should just let them have their munch, but force them to be outnumbered. Otherwise, the devs end up trying to figure out how to nerf this, boost that, and just far too much nonsense just so the munchkins don't have to feel outnumbered in matches despite holding every possible advantage.

[Reoh]

Reoh, on 03 July 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Going purely by numbers doesn't account for tonnage\BattleValue or player skill\experience, nor does it factor in power creep.

Quoting myself because I forgot to mention that this holds true for CvC and ISvIS with even numbers too.

Ideally they might start with BV2 and perhaps update it for the game, adjust player BVs by their player bonuses \ average game scores. If there's enough people playing they could add player skill gating so you get matches up against comparable skilled opponents through some sort of player value.

[edit]

Typo

Edited by Reoh, 03 July 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[CCC Dober]

OP: We have to assume that Role Warfare also applies to the Clans, not just IS. So that means a minimum of 1 Scout and 1 Assault.
Given the odds of 3 vs 1 it has to be an incredibly powerful star. We're talking Daishis here and probably another Gargoyle or Gladiator to give them enough armor to shrug off the combined fire of 4+ Mechs. 5 Madcats won't do it, although they are popular and hurt a lot. I'm equating a Madcat with a seriously pimped out Atlas (aka 3 for the IS team), so that means in a pure MC lance the remaining 2 Cats have to face down 9! other Mechs. Look, I'm not trying to be mean here, but there are odds and there are 'odds'. I leave it up to you to connect the dots.

[Hunson Abadeer]

The Adder has a 2,083 BV2 compared to the AS7-D Atlas at 1,897. Even the AS7-K is only 2,175, which is just 4.4% more than the 35-ton Clanner. The Timber Wolf A is 31.2% higher than the AS7-K. The Warhawk Prime is 46.9% higher.

Let's assume you have 1 Adder Prime, 3 Timber Wolf A's, and 1 Warhawk Prime. That gives you a combined BV2 of 13,839. The Inner Sphere could deploy a Lance each of Jenners, Hunchbacks, and AS7-D Atlases for just 15,252, which is only 10% higher.

If the two sides are fulfilling roles, the 12-on-5 model is not outlandish. The battle value of the two sides could fluctuate a lot depending on what people use, but the Inner Sphere would always have to be as heavy as possible to even have a chance of having a substantive advantage. If the Clanners went heavy, however, they could easily have an advantage.

CCC Dober, on 03 July 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

OP: We have to assume that Role Warfare also applies to the Clans, not just IS. So that means a minimum of 1 Scout and 1 Assault.
Given the odds of 3 vs 1 it has to be an incredibly powerful star. We're talking Daishis here and probably another Gargoyle or Gladiator to give them enough armor to shrug off the combined fire of 4+ Mechs. 5 Madcats won't do it, although they are popular and hurt a lot. I'm equating a Madcat with a seriously pimped out Atlas (aka 3 for the IS team), so that means in a pure MC lance the remaining 2 Cats have to face down 9! other Mechs. Look, I'm not trying to be mean here, but there are odds and there are 'odds'. I leave it up to you to connect the dots.

[CCC Dober]

I'm not getting tired to point out that the rules are quite different in MW:O. It's realtime and there is no timely order of attacks, it's a rather chaotic situation and it may very well be that some players can't even get a shot off at all because they either get suppressed or insta-crippled/killed. It all happened in past pc games and it pays to keep that in mind. 'Problems' such as these won't simply go away if you make a wish. You have to understand how the disparity between TT and MW on pc comes to pass. Different environment, different rules.

MW:O Battles are dynamic and players have the ability to focus their fire without being slaved to a set of dice. BV alone is not going to cut it, if not for the very simple reason that it was created to balance TT. It's all nice to have a number to compare, but it all becomes useless when the rules they are based on radically change with a new environment. Please understand that. Thank you.

Edited by CCC Dober, 04 July 2012 - 06:18 AM.

[Steinerwolf]

Arnie1808, on 19 May 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Well they do like to bid low these clanners

I agree. You would bring dishonor to not bid lower in such an engagement.

[Thorn Hallis]

Thing is, there will probably more players on the Clan side then on the IS side. So while 5 vs 12 might sound reasonable, it might end in long waiting times for Clan players.

[Hunson Abadeer]

CCC Dober, on 04 July 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

I'm not getting tired to point out that the rules are quite different in MW:O. It's realtime and there is no timely order of attacks, it's a rather chaotic situation and it may very well be that some players can't even get a shot off at all because they either get suppressed or insta-crippled/killed. It all happened in past pc games and it pays to keep that in mind. 'Problems' such as these won't simply go away if you make a wish. You have to understand how the disparity between TT and MW on pc comes to pass. Different environment, different rules. MW:O Battles are dynamic and players have the ability to focus their fire without being slaved to a set of dice. BV alone is not going to cut it, if not for the very simple reason that it was created to balance TT. It's all nice to have a number to compare, but it all becomes useless when the rules they are based on radically change with a new environment. Please understand that. Thank you.

Are you somehow trying to deny that Clanners have OmniMechs with better speed, armor, range, and damage? If two pilots are of equal skill, a Clan 'Mech holds absolutely all of the advantages even over a much heavier Inner Sphere 'Mech. Now, if we assume that both sides will average out when it comes to skill, there is absolutely no way to justify the 12-on-10 model. The Inner Sphere could field 12 Assault 'Mechs, and they still would not be able to outgun a mixed Binary. The only alternative is to nerf Clantech to the point that it is not even Clantech anymore. Why even put them into the game, if they are just going to be like Inner Sphere with a bunch of odd customs?

If the Clanners can field everything up to Assaults, they will have a huge advantage across the board. The only solution that makes sense to the lore is to enforce the same checks on their power that were put in place to begin with -- making them always outnumbered, no artillery, &c. A balanced Binary would still be far more powerful than a balanced Company. You are also overlooking the fact that another check on the Clans was the fact that they were not supposed to concentrate their fire, but they will be able to do exactly that in this game.

Thorn Hallis, on 04 July 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Thing is, there will probably more players on the Clan side then on the IS side. So while 5 vs 12 might sound reasonable, it might end in long waiting times for Clan players.

I actually consider that a good thing as it would provide incentive for people to play Inner Sphere. Let's face it. This game will not be sustainable in the long-term with a bunch of Clanners having no one to invade. If they wanted to make a Clan-only game, they should have just made a game focused entirely on Clan space with all of the Clans fighting with each other. They chose the Inner Sphere in 3049, however, so the player base needs to be distributed in a way that is at least somewhat conducive to the storyline.

Edited by Hunson Abadeer, 04 July 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Hunson Abadeer, on 04 July 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

I actually consider that a good thing as it would provide incentive for people to play Inner Sphere. Let's face it. This game will not be sustainable in the long-term with a bunch of Clanners having no one to invade. If they wanted to make a Clan-only game, they should have just made a game focused entirely on Clan space with all of the Clans fighting with each other. They chose the Inner Sphere in 3049, however, so the player base needs to be distributed in a way that is at least somewhat conducive to the storyline.

Sure, but it is never a good thing to force players into something, especially if you want them to spend real currency on your game.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Thorn Hallis, on 04 July 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Sure, but it is never a good thing to force players into something, especially if you want them to spend real currency on your game.

But what good does it do for the game to be unbalanced to the point of being unplayable, especially if you want them to spend real currency on your game?

[Lipot]

While most people rather quote canon and BV for the reasons of a company vs a Star, I rather point out something that makes it appeal. Everyone loves overcoming the odds. Given the pilots are all equivalent in skills, having an edge on technology but still having to play short handed makes it more of a challenge. Outside of the rper's, I don't see everyone else using the Clan's honour system that requires one on one duals. That means that while undermanned they can still out gun everyone. I have no doubts that whatever happens when the Clans are released that the majority of us will be happy.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Lipot, on 04 July 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

While most people rather quote canon and BV for the reasons of a company vs a Star, I rather point out something that makes it appeal. Everyone loves overcoming the odds. Given the pilots are all equivalent in skills, having an edge on technology but still having to play short handed makes it more of a challenge. Outside of the rper's, I don't see everyone else using the Clan's honour system that requires one on one duals. That means that while undermanned they can still out gun everyone. I have no doubts that whatever happens when the Clans are released that the majority of us will be happy.

I am sure they will find an equitable way of doing it. I just prefer that they make the Clans actually play like the Clans ... overpowered, outnumbered, no artillery, &c. I do not really see how they could enforce the notion that Clanners would not concentrate their fire, so, as you said, they will still be able to outgun everyone despite being outnumbered. That makes a lot more sense to me than nerfing the Clans to the point of not even being the Clans, or giving the Inner Sphere inaccurate and unrealistic access to Clantech.

[Thorn Hallis]

Hunson Abadeer, on 04 July 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

But what good does it do for the game to be unbalanced to the point of being unplayable, especially if you want them to spend real currency on your game?

Thats the question the devs are going to answer...in about half a year or something.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Thorn Hallis, on 04 July 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Thats the question the devs are going to answer...in about half a year or something.

And I actually have faith that the devs will do a good job. I just disagree with a lot of what the Clanners have been advocating for, and I pray that the devs are not swayed by the masses of munchkins wanting the benefits of Clantech without any of the disadvantages that were built into the game for the last two decades. The Clans were overpowered with said disadvantages, so it is safe to assume that the devs would have to ridiculously nerf Clantech to remove the disadvantages and still find balance.

If 90% of the players become Clanners, then the game would not even be recognizable as BattleTech.

[MrMasakari]

I just hope everyone doesn't hop on the band wagon for clanners the second they are released because of tech. I just wanna relive MW2 and love the clan way, so even if its in an IS tech fitted clan mech id still be going. Anyways Im sure the Devs will come up with something to balance them. But the Star vs company matches sounds like a great idea, alongside traditional matchmaking methods i.e. 4 clan mechs in mm, get split 2 either side.

[CCC Dober]

Hunson Abadeer, on 04 July 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

Are you somehow trying to deny that Clanners have OmniMechs with better speed, armor, range, and damage? If two pilots are of equal skill, a Clan 'Mech holds absolutely all of the advantages even over a much heavier Inner Sphere 'Mech. Now, if we assume that both sides will average out when it comes to skill, there is absolutely no way to justify the 12-on-10 model. The Inner Sphere could field 12 Assault 'Mechs, and they still would not be able to outgun a mixed Binary. The only alternative is to nerf Clantech to the point that it is not even Clantech anymore. Why even put them into the game, if they are just going to be like Inner Sphere with a bunch of odd customs?

If the Clanners can field everything up to Assaults, they will have a huge advantage across the board. The only solution that makes sense to the lore is to enforce the same checks on their power that were put in place to begin with -- making them always outnumbered, no artillery, &c. A balanced Binary would still be far more powerful than a balanced Company. You are also overlooking the fact that another check on the Clans was the fact that they were not supposed to concentrate their fire, but they will be able to do exactly that in this game.



I actually consider that a good thing as it would provide incentive for people to play Inner Sphere. Let's face it. This game will not be sustainable in the long-term with a bunch of Clanners having no one to invade. If they wanted to make a Clan-only game, they should have just made a game focused entirely on Clan space with all of the Clans fighting with each other. They chose the Inner Sphere in 3049, however, so the player base needs to be distributed in a way that is at least somewhat conducive to the storyline.

Look, today is a good day to realize something important. The IS finally got a Mech that will put the BV system to the test that you seem to cling to. Lo' and behold, it's the Jagermech JM6-DG. If you have a head on your shoulder and can rub 2 working brain cells together, then pray tell me how the BV2 of 1661 for that particular variant correlates with such a deadly armament on a 65 ton Mech.

In short, don't bother: it doesn't correlate. Are you surprised?
Everybody and their brother knows that 2 Gauss ain't no joke, neither in TT nor in realtime and not even the Mad Cat has that kind of ballistic firepower, although the average BV2 is way higher than that. Something doesn't add up right? How is a lighter, inferior IS Mech deadlier but doesn't have the BV2 to show for it? (Gauss are headhunter weapons, in case you forgot that) Makes you wonder, eh? The Jager effectively packs the firepower of an Assault Mech without the BV2 to go with ... so much for the BV2-theory. Have a nice day sir.

Edited by CCC Dober, 04 July 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

CCC Dober, on 04 July 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Look, today is a good day to realize something important. The IS finally got a Mech that will put the BV system to the test that you seem to cling to. Lo' and behold, it's the Jagermech JM6-DG. If you have a head on your shoulder and can rub 2 working brain cells together, then pray tell me how the BV2 of 1661 for that particular variant correlates with such a deadly armament on a 65 ton Mech.

In short, don't bother: it doesn't correlate. Are you surprised?
Everybody and their brother knows that 2 Gauss ain't no joke, neither in TT nor in realtime and not even the Mad Cat has that kind of ballistic firepower, although the average BV2 is way higher than that. Something doesn't add up right? How is a lighter, inferior IS Mech deadlier but doesn't have the BV2 to show for it? (Gauss are headhunter weapons, in case you forgot that) Makes you wonder, eh? The Jager effectively packs the firepower of an Assault Mech without the BV2 to go with ... so much for the BV2-theory. Have a nice day sir.

The JM6-DG has a grand total of 200 armor points, a maximum speed of 65kph, no jump jets, and an XL engine. It only has two serious weapons, and they are both in the arms, which only have 20 armor each. You are purposely only focusing on its offensive power without acknowledging the fact that its BV is lower because of how easily it can be killed. Also, Clan ERLL, ER PPC, LPL, Gauss, LB 2-X, LB-5X, UAC/2, UAC/5, and all LRM's essentially match or exceed the range of an Inner Sphere Gauss.

[Ardan Blade]

If the Clans operate like they did during the initial invasion, then this should both be fair and interesting. I think based upon how their mechs perform, that this would be much closer to even. (At least by tabletop standards!)