71 replies to this topic

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I love the new economy because anyone can play any mech that they want and make money with it if they do well and that's how it should be for non-community warfare events.

With community warfare the cost of different builds, availability of ammunition, and cost of repairs need to be accounted for to better simulate a real universe.

[blinkin]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 21 December 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

I love the new economy because anyone can play any mech that they want and make money with it if they do well and that's how it should be for non-community warfare events.

With community warfare the cost of different builds, availability of ammunition, and cost of repairs need to be accounted for to better simulate a real universe.

i could accept that, but this still punishes new players who are dead weight because they have inferior mechs.

[Joanna Conners]

blinkin, on 21 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

i could accept that, but this still punishes new players who are dead weight because they have inferior mechs.

There are no inferior mechs. Just like in any MMO there are no inferior classes. It's all about personal preferences and skill.

[Dirus Nigh]

I would like to see the return of RnR. However I think it should be an aspect of community warfare.

A pick up game for grinding out C-bills, testing new configurations, or just for a quick match or two should not have to repair your mech. However when playing games that determine control of planets and otherwise influence the meta game every thing needs to be on the line. I would love to see a campaign like series of matches to determine planetary control or other such large strategic goals. This is wear cost and reward are a true part of the game.

[Mazgazine1]

Not sure where the economy is broken... The old system punished users with Ferros or even just using an Atlas was a bad idea. Now people can experiment without a harsh penalty. I can run my atlas like a brawler and fight to my last armor point!

When you lose how much money do you get? (assuming you don't have founders) I would usually get between 25-40K Cbills. When I'd win I would get upwards of 150K (really good match of course). This is exactly what I would get after repairs with most of my mechs. That's why its like this now.

My winnings aren't an aftermath of repairs anymore, I earn 150K, I GET 150k.

Yes it does make missing with SRMS less of an issue, but really was it ever a problem? Did you ever need full ammo for 6 tons? I'm sure the free 75% was enough. I know it is, I have a stalker with 5 srm6's .

Remember there are probably 100 times more people playing without any bonuses then founders (I hope!). This was to help new players, and to even out the grind.

It still has some flaws (mission rewards are not worth it, kills not giving as much as assists) but its far better and quicker. I can remember dozens of times the repair system crashed on me and I had to restart the client.

Edited by Mazgazine1, 21 December 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Bobzilla]

You said you run a mech that was expensive to repair, but you still ran it. So RNR didn't really affect what you ran. I'm the same way, i used what i liked befor, and still use the same now. I'm finding i'm really not making much more cbills.
Im guessing most experienced players are the same, however its new players that were getting hit by RnR learing what works for them.

[blinkin]

Bobzilla, on 21 December 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

You said you run a mech that was expensive to repair, but you still ran it. So RNR didn't really affect what you ran. I'm the same way, i used what i liked befor, and still use the same now. I'm finding i'm really not making much more cbills.
Im guessing most experienced players are the same, however its new players that were getting hit by RnR learing what works for them.

the fact is i only made money if i did well enough. if i did less than 200 damage in a match i most likely lost money. the point is RR keeps the number of expensive mechs on the field low. the field does not become flooded with hoards of atlas. new players will be hit harder by being the dead weight on the team because their mech is outclassed by everyone else on the field. RR hits all mechs but it hits expensive high end mechs the hardest. a new players first jenner will be much more forgiving than a 15,000,000cbill atlas.

any player can still run a high grade mech but every so often they must either run a cheep mech or give real money to the developers to be able to keep their high end mechs in good repair.

and to be honest i miss the risk and excitement associated with failures that might leave my mech broken and unusable for several matches.

Edited by blinkin, 21 December 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[blinkin]

bump because the economy is boring and unfair to new players.

[Katina Tarask]

How exactly is a system where losing means you lose your C-Bills unless you use a terrible mech better for new players? Because thats what you're advocating.

You don't seem to realise, a new player relying on a trial mech would usually end up on the losing side of a 0-8 or 1-8 kerbstomp, because, you know, they're new and don't know how to play and theres no tutorial. With only 4 trial mechs, they need to buy their own mech to try out different strategies, and mess around with the mechlab to find their ideal mech. Only then can they really get 'good', but to do that they need to get the C-Bills. A system which adds costs for being kerbstomped hinders this, it doesn't help.

You claim you liked the risk of using your super-mech (which because of inherent game balance can't really be that much better than any other properly built mech, the difference would be 15-20% and the rest would be play skill), but most people are risk-averse. If they discover they're being punished for experimenting with the game and the various different builds, they'll probably not want to, and go find another game.

Thats not to say repair and rearm aren't valid parts of an economy, in fact I think they have a very definite place. But that place is in ranked Community Warfare matches between teams of veterans, not in the random matches where new players are learning the ropes. Once CW is implemented I'd push for RnR being a part of it, with unranked matches being left for the new people who want to learn what they're doing before diving into the full game.

[Reno Blade]

I liked to think about RnR, but I think the Community Warfare with the contracts and conquest of planets will have RnR to make it matter.
The amount could be depending on the planet, the contract and be just substracted % of your victory bonus.
For now, i would just like to see win/loss become different.
I know the losers dont get salvage bonus... but, i don't know, it still feels wrong.

[blinkin]

Reno Blade, on 25 December 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

I liked to think about RnR, but I think the Community Warfare with the contracts and conquest of planets will have RnR to make it matter.
The amount could be depending on the planet, the contract and be just substracted % of your victory bonus.
For now, i would just like to see win/loss become different.
I know the losers dont get salvage bonus... but, i don't know, it still feels wrong.

i definitely don't like the percentage idea. it has none of the risk that RR (as it was before) adds to the game.

what feels wrong to me is the fact that there is absolutely no penalty for death or poor gameplay in the current system.

[Reno Blade]

blinkin, on 28 December 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

i definitely don't like the percentage idea. it has none of the risk that RR (as it was before) adds to the game.

what feels wrong to me is the fact that there is absolutely no penalty for death or poor gameplay in the current system.

Yea, rushing in and playing rambo should not be the best way to play.

If the contracts would have certain conditions and would lower/higher the amount of RnR if you take this contract or protect this target...
Ever played MW2 Mercenaries? It was great and you never had enough money.
Secondary target: Protect Base Thetta
Reward: 80% repair cost paid by the contract partner.
Failure: only 60% repair cost paid by the contract partner.
(Default repaircost maybe 70% for most contracts)

[blinkin]

Reno Blade, on 29 December 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Yea, rushing in and playing rambo should not be the best way to play.

If the contracts would have certain conditions and would lower/higher the amount of RnR if you take this contract or protect this target...
Ever played MW2 Mercenaries? It was great and you never had enough money.
Secondary target: Protect Base Thetta
Reward: 80% repair cost paid by the contract partner.
Failure: only 60% repair cost paid by the contract partner.
(Default repaircost maybe 70% for most contracts)

i think this would be a great idea.

[Glythe]

It is a shame they had to break the system because a few people were milking the rules. /sigh

Overall it will make more people buy MC I suppose (or stop playing).

Friendlier to new players IS a good idea but the removal of risk for expensive mechs kind of breaks the game in that there is only reward. In that sense the game now favors rich players over poor ones and that is not a good thing.

[blinkin]

Glythe, on 29 December 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

It is a shame they had to break the system because a few people were milking the rules. /sigh

Overall it will make more people buy MC I suppose (or stop playing).

Friendlier to new players IS a good idea but the removal of risk for expensive mechs kind of breaks the game in that there is only reward. In that sense the game now favors rich players over poor ones and that is not a good thing.

thank you! this is exactly the point i have been trying to make! you have stated it much more clearly than i could.

new players all start out poor.
the old system favors players who are poor and have cheep mechs.
therefore the old system favors new players, giving them a chance to learn the game.

the old system progressively ramped up the difficulty as you moved to more expensive mechs.

Edited by blinkin, 29 December 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Szaesse]

Actually blinkin, you're not exactly right. In part, you are. But there are some clear differences.

New players were not favored at all in the old system. Just because they usually had a cheap mech didn't mean that the new players didn't get hammered. You still needed to DO something to really make money. If you didn't do any damage at all, got no assists, no kills, just got stomped super early in the match, you really didn't make much. Also, just because a new player is a new player doesn't mean their first mech is a cheap one.

This is a simple aspect of F2P games. You start out with random "trial" characters. In this game, 4 standard variant mechs that you get to choose from. You use those 4 mechs to get a feel for what you like, and to test out the game. Not every new player is going to WANT a light mech. I know I didn't. When I came to MWO, I played around, and decided to go with a Heavy. My reason for this was 2 fold. First of all, I like being able to dish out the damage, as well as take a good amount at the same time. Second, I liked being able to actually MOVE, which many assault mechs aren't good at. Rather than **** around with grinding c-bills in a trial mech (the trial reduction to c-bill generation was just too bloody slow for my liking), I used MC to purchase a Cataphract 1X. Now, a Cataphract isn't exactly a cheap machine to run. It WAS just a base-model, so it wasn't all that special, but it got the job done. I then used the c-bills I was generating with it to slowly upgrade it in various ways. After my first upgrade (ferro armor) I was suddenly looking at a much steeper price to repair my machine. I was actually noticing a distinct drop in how much cash I could actually make using it. While I was definitely staying up longer, when I got taken out (or took heavy damage), I was really looking at paying out way more to keep my machine going. This was actually very discouraging to me.
I still kept upgrading, but my repair cost was getting higher. Eventually, my main machine was basically an upgraded CTF-3L, but it still isn't all powerful. It's just expensive as hell to fix.

I agree with many above posters. Included RnR in Community Warfare. This is where it belongs. I use a lot of LoL comparisons because I have a lot of experience in that game, but it still comes out true. Let a regular match be for c-bill grinding to buy that new XL engine, or add in that Capture Module. No loss of c-bills playing a match to discourage people from playing what they want to play. Have Community Warfare be where you have to start considering the risks. Is it a good idea to run this high-price mech? Will the advantages it gives me outweigh the chance of a stupid-high repair bill? This is stuff that veterans can worry about (and it's veterans that WANT to worry about them, keep in mind), and let the new players get their legs before you start forcing them to think even further afield. When a new player pays real money for an Awesome 9M because he likes the idea of an ammo-free brawler that can actually move, only to find that he runs the risk of loosing in-game money for running his paid-for machine, he's gonna get frustrated and leave. It's that simple.

New player doesn't always mean a cheap mech. We aren't playing a campaign game that forces you into a light right off the bat.

Edited by Szaesse, 29 December 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[blinkin]

Szaesse, on 29 December 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Actually blinkin, you're not exactly right. In part, you are. But there are some clear differences.

New players were not favored at all in the old system. Just because they usually had a cheap mech didn't mean that the new players didn't get hammered. You still needed to DO something to really make money. If you didn't do any damage at all, got no assists, no kills, just got stomped super early in the match, you really didn't make much. Also, just because a new player is a new player doesn't mean their first mech is a cheap one.

This is a simple aspect of F2P games. You start out with random "trial" characters. In this game, 4 standard variant mechs that you get to choose from. You use those 4 mechs to get a feel for what you like, and to test out the game. Not every new player is going to WANT a light mech. I know I didn't. When I came to MWO, I played around, and decided to go with a Heavy. My reason for this was 2 fold. First of all, I like being able to dish out the damage, as well as take a good amount at the same time. Second, I liked being able to actually MOVE, which many assault mechs aren't good at. Rather than **** around with grinding c-bills in a trial mech (the trial reduction to c-bill generation was just too bloody slow for my liking), I used MC to purchase a Cataphract 1X. Now, a Cataphract isn't exactly a cheap machine to run. It WAS just a base-model, so it wasn't all that special, but it got the job done. I then used the c-bills I was generating with it to slowly upgrade it in various ways. After my first upgrade (ferro armor) I was suddenly looking at a much steeper price to repair my machine. I was actually noticing a distinct drop in how much cash I could actually make using it. While I was definitely staying up longer, when I got taken out (or took heavy damage), I was really looking at paying out way more to keep my machine going. This was actually very discouraging to me.
I still kept upgrading, but my repair cost was getting higher. Eventually, my main machine was basically an upgraded CTF-3L, but it still isn't all powerful. It's just expensive as hell to fix.

I agree with many above posters. Included RnR in Community Warfare. This is where it belongs. I use a lot of LoL comparisons because I have a lot of experience in that game, but it still comes out true. Let a regular match be for c-bill grinding to buy that new XL engine, or add in that Capture Module. No loss of c-bills playing a match to discourage people from playing what they want to play. Have Community Warfare be where you have to start considering the risks. Is it a good idea to run this high-price mech? Will the advantages it gives me outweigh the chance of a stupid-high repair bill? This is stuff that veterans can worry about (and it's veterans that WANT to worry about them, keep in mind), and let the new players get their legs before you start forcing them to think even further afield. When a new player pays real money for an Awesome 9M because he likes the idea of an ammo-free brawler that can actually move, only to find that he runs the risk of loosing in-game money for running his paid-for machine, he's gonna get frustrated and leave. It's that simple.

New player doesn't always mean a cheap mech. We aren't playing a campaign game that forces you into a light right off the bat.

you have been reinforcing my main point. i used light mechs because they were an obvious example, but most stock mechs are very cheap to fix. the mech itself adds very little to the repair cost. most of the value in a mech is components. when i calculated out the value of my catapult, after removing all of the components the base price of the empty shell for the cat c4 was only 2 or 3 million. that price is also spread out over several components. most of the cost in repair bills came from upgrades (like ferrofibrus which i think is the last you should get, endosteel is currently just better), xl engines, and ammuntion (it cost me 6,500 cbill every time i pulled the trigger on my srm cat).

and like you said as you bought upgrades and components your repairs got more expensive. to say that the old system was nice to new players was not entirely honest. the more accurate statement would be: the repair and reload system is much more hostile to players who have played long enough to earn expensive mechs.

what i am saying is that the old RR system prevented players who have been around long enough to upgrade into an expensive mech from flooding the fields and abusing players in stock or minimally upgraded mechs.

the old system also still left a challange for veteran players. my 11,027,000 cbill cat would punish me severely if i just ran straight into the enemy and died. my usual repair bill was between 75,000 and 150,000. it is a good mech and before it DEMANDED that i be a good pilot. if i did not feed it enough cbills in a match it came out of my hide. that challenge is gone.

[blinkin]

a quick bump to see what people think today.

[focuspark]

MW:O doesn't have an "economy" or anything resembling an "economy". What it has is points to grind for and a way to avoid grinding by spending real world money.

[WiCkEd]

I've got to agree that the current system as it pertains to the beta status of this game is fine. When community Warfare comes there does need to be an economic change to prevent every map engagement from turning into what we currently see in 8vs8 matches which is 6 AS7-D-DC Atli and 2 ECM RAVEN's.