345 replies to this topic

[Ave Hax]

As i am torn on the issue i will not vote
to be true to the game yes it should be here but with no premium acct you were loosing money now it isnt bad at all
if a solo or drop vs ai storymode etc is established yes it should be there
in pvp as is not so much
take care

[Bhael Fire]

Without a real salvage system, it seems kinda pointless to have repair and rearm.

I'd prefer that a c-bill and XP bonus be awarded to players that survive the match. The better condition your mech is at the end of the match, the higher the bonus. This will give players incentive to stay alive and keep their mech in good condition.

[blinkin]

Bhael Fire, on 24 January 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Without a real salvage system, it seems kinda pointless to have repair and rearm.

I'd prefer that a c-bill and XP bonus be awarded to players that survive the match. The better condition your mech is at the end of the match, the higher the bonus. This will give players incentive to stay alive and keep their mech in good condition.

they seem similar but the major advantages RR provides are:

• ends bots
  
• (eventually) balances clan tech
  
• limits number of high end expensive mechs that punish new players that do not have money or a good mech yet
  
• keeps the field mixed between expensive and cheap mechs so that you don't spend all of your time fighting one mech
  
• brings back the challenge in the game for me

please bring back repair and rearm.

also i think friendly fire penalties should be based on any associated repair costs!

Edited by blinkin, 24 January 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

In order for them to be able to bring R&R back, two things must happen first:

1. A real Training Mode for new players. Trial mechs will only be able to be used in this mode — that is, no trial mechs in real matches. Once players earn their cadet money in this mode, no further money/xp can be earned in this mode (to prevent experienced players from farming xp and c-bills on noobs).

2. A real salvage system that awards players with components, weapons, ammo and mech chassis...instead of a static c-bill bonus. That way, R&R can be used to keep the loot, or players can sell it for c-bills.

[Darwins Dog]

blinkin, on 24 January 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

they seem similar but the major advantages RR provides are:

• ends bots
  
• (eventually) balances clan tech
  
• limits number of high end expensive mechs that punish new players that do not have money or a good mech yet
  
• keeps the field mixed between expensive and cheap mechs so that you don't spend all of your time fighting one mech
  
• brings back the challenge in the game for me

please bring back repair and rearm.


also i think friendly fire penalties should be based on any associated repair costs!

Most of your points are valid, except about balancing clan tech. If you use the repair cost as a balance for equipment that is a true upgrade (like clan tech), then you are creating a situation where people who buy premium time will be able to afford to run more good stuff. Some would call this a pay to win situation, and I would agree with them.

[blinkin]

Darwins Dog, on 24 January 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Most of your points are valid, except about balancing clan tech. If you use the repair cost as a balance for equipment that is a true upgrade (like clan tech), then you are creating a situation where people who buy premium time will be able to afford to run more good stuff. Some would call this a pay to win situation, and I would agree with them.

this argument defeats itself. players will be forced to pay when they play poorly with a high end mech. these players will be spending money because they are not skilled and are dieing before they do very much damage. it is like a person buying a Ferrari and only using it for a 5 mile commute to work. yeah it is a nice car, but in their hands it is used no differently than any other car on the street. they are paying more and getting almost nothing out of it.

copy pasta from another post i made on the subject a while back.

[Artgathan]

Stonefalcon, on 18 December 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

I've found that since the new patch has come in I've been making about 60-70k less than when repairs and rearms were in. PGI says this is about right on the average but it's not.

The figures were using now are pretty much based on having your mech blown up every match. What about those people who took care of their mech, thought things through and came away from most battles with a 0-10k repair bill while making 250-280k?

But like all things meant for good people abused the system, I admit to never rearming my Artemis missile boat and instead just equipping more ammo. I never liked the 75% free re-arm and thought it was rather silly to fork out an extra 180-200k to rearm my mech every match when I can pay one time fees of 60k per tonne and never have to pay that again.

I rather liked the repair and rearm scheme, I know a lot of people did, we took care of our mechs and the mechs took care of us, we fought with thought and it showed in the money we made every match.

But it's obvious that something needed to be done to stop a number of issues, that's fine. With the current auto repair taking place gone are the days of people not repairing their mech and jumping into battle after battle suiciding.

I think repairs automatically occurring is right but I don't think it's fair to cost us 60-70k per match to "force" a repair that might have only been 1 Tonne of armour. I think this could have been better achieved for us to receive the old amount of money but after every match have a window coming up saying how much it cost to repair/rearm your mech and force it out.

From what I have read so far regarding repairs it seems it is out the window never to return, personally i think it's a step backwards.

What do you think?

Your first three paragraphs contradict each other. You said you brought in 250-280k a match, but never re-armed your mech (which you claim would have cost 180-200k). So effectively you were making 80k a match (if you had not been abusing the system), which is less than the current system. Good pilots make money in the current system - performance is rewarded accordingly.

*Edit: Originally had written 'two paragraphs' instead of 'three paragraphs'

Edited by Artgathan, 24 January 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Darwins Dog]

blinkin, on 24 January 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

this argument defeats itself. players will be forced to pay when they play poorly with a high end mech. these players will be spending money because they are not skilled and are dieing before they do very much damage. it is like a person buying a Ferrari and only using it for a 5 mile commute to work. yeah it is a nice car, but in their hands it is used no differently than any other car on the street. they are paying more and getting almost nothing out of it.

copy pasta from another post i made on the subject a while back.

My argument is not self defeating. Player A has real money to spend and will be able to buy premium time and run a high end mech. Player B does not have real money to spend, and thus can't afford to risk all of the high end gear. Both are equally skilled, thus player A has essentially paid real money for an in game advantage.

Also, mechs get destroyed for more reasons than poor play. A build with lots of powerful weapons will be a priority target, and will get destroyed often, even if the pilot is good. Half of the players in every match lose, and usually more than half get destroyed, but not all of them are bad players.

I don't understand the relevance of your ferrari comment.

[blinkin]

bump because i really want repair and rearm back. i think it would solve many of the problems that have popped up and makes the game much more immersive.

[Tharkan Stuermer]

I didn't play the game when repairs had to be paid, but I don't think that would be any good. If players have to pay for their repairs, they will be a lot more cautious than they already are. Thus, too much cautiousness will result in most boring sniper tactics, I am afraid. For instance, I usually pilot light brawlers, and I especially like my Jenner. So far, I often wait until my heavies engage an enemy before I close in and engage him myself. Many heavy and assault Mechs use this distraction of the enemy Mechs to disengage, and continue with -mostly ineffective- sniper tactics. Consequently, I will be cut off and probably killed, and the team will be ripped to pieces one by one, mostly because some people are already too cautious. If costs for repairs are established again, those tactics will become increasingly popular, though.

Edited by Tharkan Stuermer, 27 January 2013 - 03:10 AM.

[Sandslice]

I do have a few concerns about R&R.

1. It gives an incentive for intentionally inefficient, even brutal, attacks.
In one of my nastier moments in the Awesome, I shattered both side torsos on an enemy Stalker... at the same time. This wasn't intentional; it just happened that my SRM spread did that. I did finish my plate quickly after that; but with R&R, why shouldn't I have added insult (and more repair bills) to injury and legged him, stripped off the rest of his armour, and then finished? I had time to do just that.

2. There are game mechanic problems involved.
A light 'Mech gets tripped up on 0.2m of terrain takes leg damage - hello R&R. A jumper takes momentum damage on the landing, despite best efforts to make a smooth landing: repair bills, ho! The matchmaker creates 8v6 and one of the six is 4 FPS. As if the n-square law weren't enough... R&R!

3. Negative incomes are not interesting or fun.
Yes, I'm aware that this is an opinion. Reduced rewards are one thing; but outright negative rewards are a turnoff. It's farming for raid materials and repair gold; it's spending a large amount of time in trials just to have enough money to run your 'Mech for a session or two, and hoping that the matchmaker allows you to not get thrown back into trials.
It's half of the reason I stopped playing World of Warcraft.

That said...
I do believe that something like R&R can be incorporated, while avoiding negative rewards: we can tweak the percent status indicator. The way it'd work is this:

Each aspect of the 'Mech (armour, internal structure, kit, ammo, engine, etc) is worth a certain number of "points." Upgraded "level 2" gear such as XLE and endo increase the point value of the affected component by a rather large proportion.

Damage (and ammo use) on the 'Mech reduces its point value, and the percent status indicator updates as usual.

At the end of the match, if you survive, you get reward * percent status. If you die, you get half (maybe even less?) of this.

Example: Let's say I get into a real grinder and survive with a kill or two and good damage dealt, but I have a side torso gone: I'm at 60% as a result. The match reward would be 120k, but it's reduced to 72k by the repair system. If I'd died, I'd only get 36k for the same performance (probably less, due to the extra damage from the death.)

[blinkin]

bump

[Praeses]

I would like an extra option

"yes, but balancing economy and fixing/adding rewards"

if buying new mech/equipment is difficult but most players still go with it, is not a really good idea to make it more difficult because some of the players that didn't complain before will start complaining and some will start leaving.

the R&R should affect how players equip their mechs, fight, use weapons, it should not affect the difficulty to buy mechs or equipment

[Sandslice]

Praeses, on 30 January 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I would like an extra option

"yes, but balancing economy and fixing/adding rewards"

if buying new mech/equipment is difficult but most players still go with it, is not a really good idea to make it more difficult because some of the players that didn't complain before will start complaining and some will start leaving.

the R&R should affect how players equip their mechs, fight, use weapons, it should not affect the difficulty to buy mechs or equipment

It can't not affect both, so long as it's the same currency being used for both R&R and new purchases.

[blinkin]

bump

[Antarius]

Atm, with this gamemodes only, it would be a bad idea to bring it back.

R&R was unbalanced, you cant simply translate the values from the TT, if you chanced how the weapons work.

I play mostly lights, had never a problem with R&R to get money, but i sometimes tried "expensiver" Mechs... was a joke.
To have to watch after your Mech... Brawler should get damage, to draw attension and give your mates the chance to win a Match, why should a brawler be punished for doing his job, a scout dont? Even if i get hit as a scout, no problem, this little thing cost nothing, but can kill a solo atlas?


If the Meta-game is in place, and there is a perpose in a Match, like fighting about Planet, a fabric or something like this, there should be R&R in place.

[Saxophonist]

Nah, I like it as it is. No exploits, everything's fair. XL engines are actually useful, with the right amount of risk/reward. It's great.

[Fut]

Once the Factions/Clans can battle over planets, and gain resources based on how many planets they hold (or whatever the Devs are hopefully planning), Repair & Rearm costs should be brought back into the game.

[blinkin]

Saxophonist, on 02 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Nah, I like it as it is. No exploits, everything's fair. XL engines are actually useful, with the right amount of risk/reward. It's great.

what risk? there is no risk right now at all. people charge in blow their wad and die, then they do it again, and they keep doing it because there is no penalty.

i use xl engines almost exclusively and used them all the way through closed beta. you are dropping half of the engine weight (which can easily add another 10-15 tons to a mech). without the high repair and rearm it is almost a no brainer as far as running an xl over a standard. so you get to either run much faster or equip more and larger weapons. yeah now the side torsos become kill shots, but with most light mechs and many other mechs like the catapult or dragon the side torsos are so small that it is hardly a concern. there are many mechs that get almost no penalty for using xl engines with the current system.

"it's great" because now it is way too easy and you do not have to think as much when you build your mechs or when your charge into combat. they took away a major incentive to be tactical in a tactics based game.

Edited by blinkin, 02 February 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[blinkin]

bump