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Repair And Rearm. Should It Return?


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Poll: Repair and Rearm (779 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Repair and Rearm be brought back?

  1. Yes, Return it to what it was. (205 votes [24.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.23%

  2. No, I like it as it is. (322 votes [38.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.06%

  3. Yes, But have repairs occur automatically. (44 votes [5.20%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.20%

  4. Yes, But have repairs occur automatically and remove 75% free re-arm (91 votes [10.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.76%

  5. Yes, But remove 75% free re-arm (184 votes [21.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.75%

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#281 Vassago Rain

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostDeaconW, on 20 May 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Um...MW4? That one game invalidates your argument.


Singleplayer isn't multiplayer. I don't care what goes on in a singleplayer campaign that has savescumming.

View PostDeaconW, on 20 May 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Not sure if you've missed all the advertising but that is where this is going.


And we're sure to have a conquest mode that's not just a rush for tickets, right? With cannons and bases that have defenses you need to hack?

Naw, brah. Until it's here, it's not even on the schedule.

#282 Leafia Barrett

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:15 AM

Now, I wasn't here when R&R was a thing, but fro my understanding of it, this is what I'd like to see out of it.
-Optional auto-repair that shows the cost of repair as a deduction from match spoils.
-Repair costs based on damage PERCENTAGE, not straight damage counts.
-Higher CB rewards overall, to offset it.
-Do not charge for ammo resupplying! Why would I bother losing money each match by using an ammo-eating weapon when I could just use lasers for free?

#283 Lord of All

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:31 AM

I don't see how R&R can be viable without Salvage, restricted Mechs and supply and retreat option. It seems to me every balance Issue in this game boils down to haveing it cherry picked from the whole without any of the balancing aspects being included. This game needs to be designed as a module to a larger one and that larger one can supply the Economy Data as well as the Mission goals.

#284 DeaconW

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostLeafia Barrett, on 20 May 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

-Optional auto-repair that shows the cost of repair as a deduction from match spoils.


It had this.

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-Repair costs based on damage PERCENTAGE, not straight damage counts.


This seems a reasonable idea.

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-Higher CB rewards overall, to offset it.


The cost/reward mechanics were still not right before they abandoned the idea.

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-Do not charge for ammo resupplying! Why would I bother losing money each match by using an ammo-eating weapon when I could just use lasers for free?


Well this would make weapon choice a tactical choice that *mattered*, wouldn't it? Right now, no one has to consider it. I agree that typical ammo use in a match for any weapon should not break the bank...what really needed to be debated was "how much?" not whether R&R needed to go or not...

#285 DeaconW

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

As if to help me make my point...a post about another "thought mechanic" gleefully done away with when R&R went away...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2364582

#286 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:04 AM

View PostDeaconW, on 20 May 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Um...MW4? That one game invalidates your argument.


Read the whole argument?


R&R in single player, where you can always reload if things went too wrong. Heck, where you can set the difficulty setting or switch heat off or whatever.
(The most hardcore R&R was probably Mechwarrior 3 single player - everything you found was yours, and you couldn't have what you didn't kill your self).

But in mutliplayer, it's not part of the game.

#287 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:08 AM

View PostDeaconW, on 20 May 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

As if to help me make my point...a post about another "thought mechanic" gleefully done away with when R&R went away...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2364582

I don't get it.

Ammo explosions still exist. The chance for ammo explosion is just ridiculous low, which might however be good, because ammo explosions have also always been ridiculous dangerous and unbalanced.

#288 DeaconW

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:21 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 20 May 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

I don't get it.

Ammo explosions still exist. The chance for ammo explosion is just ridiculous low, which might however be good, because ammo explosions have also always been ridiculous dangerous and unbalanced.


The point is that no one cares about carrying a Gauss or XL engine because of cost...it isn't even part of the discussion. Basically that post brought out "Don't use case, it would only save you R&R, which doesn't exist, so forget that mechanic entirely".

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 20 May 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:


But in mutliplayer, it's not part of the game.


And multiplayer in MW4 didn't even have R&R and was a totally different structure and mechanic than MWO so that doesn't support your position either. They are not equivalent and to suggest so is disingenuous at best.

#289 Keifomofutu

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostDeaconW, on 20 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:


The point is that no one cares about carrying a Gauss or XL engine because of cost...it isn't even part of the discussion. Basically that post brought out "Don't use case, it would only save you R&R, which doesn't exist, so forget that mechanic entirely".

All you are really saying here is MUH IMMERSION! So using case in an XL engine is pointless who cares?

And multiplayer in MW4 didn't even have R&R and was a totally different structure and mechanic than MWO so that doesn't support your position either. They are not equivalent and to suggest so is disingenuous at best.

It had a mechlab, it had random battles, it was online multiplayer, and it played out not overly differently. It is the R&R people who keep bringing up MW4 as this beacon of R&R goodness. Only they are talking about a single player mode that lets you fight stupid ai robots and reload a save if you lose badly.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 20 May 2013 - 10:42 AM.


#290 DeaconW

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:58 AM

View PostKeifomofutu, on 20 May 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

All you are really saying here is MUH IMMERSION! So using case in an XL engine is pointless who cares?


The beauty of good art (and games) is in the details...PGI appears to be sanding off many of those details...

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It had a mechlab, it had random battles, it was online multiplayer, and it played out not overly differently. It is the R&R people who keep bringing up MW4 as this beacon of R&R goodness. Only they are talking about a single player mode that lets you fight stupid ai robots and reload a save if you lose badly.


I disagree...the multiplayer in MWO is the *central game*...in MW4 single player was the *central game*. Saying the games are not "overly different" is like saying a Bugatti and a Taurus are not "overly different" because they both have 4 wheels, an engine and a steering wheel...

Edited by DeaconW, 20 May 2013 - 10:59 AM.


#291 Keifomofutu

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostDeaconW, on 20 May 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:


The beauty of good art (and games) is in the details...PGI appears to be sanding off many of those details...

[/i][/u]

I disagree...the multiplayer in MWO is the *central game*...in MW4 single player was the *central game*. Saying the games are not "overly different" is like saying a Bugatti and a Taurus are not "overly different" because they both have 4 wheels, an engine and a steering wheel...

Now you're just being sneaky. Comparing a multiplayer online game with the stand-alone multiplayer part of an online game is not comparing apples and oranges. Single-player was its own distinct element of MW4 completely separate from multiplayer.

Trying to argue that R&R while fighting ai bots in a reloadable campaign TOTALLY proves R&R viable is where you are comparing Ferraris and Tercels. Actually scratch that at that point you are comparing automated trains with Ferraris.

Again besides being pay to win and ummersion what did R&R add?

Edited by Keifomofutu, 20 May 2013 - 11:08 AM.


#292 DeaconW

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostKeifomofutu, on 20 May 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Now you're just being sneaky. Comparing a multiplayer online game with the stand-alone multiplayer part of an online game is not comparing apples and oranges. Single-player was its own distinct element of MW4 completely separate from multiplayer.


Except the comparison makes sense:

Question 1: Do you think the Community Warfare of MWO will be more like MW4 multiplayer or MW4 single player?

Question 2: In TT, there are campaign R&R rules...are you contending we shouldn't use that model and if not, Why not?

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Trying to argue that R&R while fighting ai bots in a reloadable campaign TOTALLY proves R&R viable is where you are comparing Ferraris and Tercels. Actually scratch that at that point you are comparing automated trains with Ferraris.


Disingenuous...again. My point wasn't to compare the single player vs multi wrt to tactical gameplay...I am talking about the *metagame*. Again, Campaign BT TT has R&R.

Quote

Again besides being pay to win and ummersion what did R&R add?


Already stated....and I do not concede that it is in any way P2W. Grind is grind. If you have talent, the grind is shorter, if you don't, it is longer. Paying just makes the grind shorter.

Edited by DeaconW, 20 May 2013 - 12:31 PM.


#293 FerretGR

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:56 PM

View PostDeaconW, on 20 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

The point is that no one cares about carrying a Gauss or XL engine because of cost...it isn't even part of the discussion. Basically that post brought out "Don't use case, it would only save you R&R, which doesn't exist, so forget that mechanic entirely".


If you think the only consideration when choosing between, say, an XL and a STD engine is cost, you don't really understand the game. In reality, whether to bring an XL or a STD is a tactical decision. Do you want to have some saved tonnage to devote to weapons? Do you want to use the saved tonnage to up the engine size? You can do so by using an XL, but at the cost of survivability. Same goes for the gauss: do I want to stick the gun that explodes in the shoulder of my Dragon? Or should I perhaps go with a safer, albeit less deadly, weapon?

CASE is a great example. I pack a CASE if I choose a STD engine and there's an explodey gun like a gauss or some ammo on that side. Not because it'll save me on the repair bill, but becaue it might keep me alive on the battlefield... I've crushed many a mech with one torso gone, but in order ot do so, the CT has to survive. That you think CASE is a throwaway item without R&R is part of the problem.

This is how one balances. Perks and drawbacks. These things, these expensive items, already have them. Balance these perks and drawbacks: don't tax them because you can't figure out how to do so. In the end, that's all R&R is.

Besides, cost is already factored in for these things. There's a rather large up-front cost for all of the items in question. That's enough of an obstacle for a non-premium player. Adding a tax that premium players can easily afford but that non-premium players have to make tough choices because of is not okay.

#294 RacerX

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

No and hell no! Repair and rearm were distractions and a money sync. What a pain in the butt feature that was. Let it rest in piece or burn in hell. Just don't let it back into the game.

#295 DeaconW

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:15 PM

View PostFerretGR, on 20 May 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:


If you think the only consideration when choosing between, say, an XL and a STD engine is cost, you don't really understand the game.


Please google "straw man logical fallacy". thx.

Quote

This is how one balances. Perks and drawbacks.


I agree...and I think R&R adds a dimension to the game in this regard.

#296 DeaconW

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:27 PM

View PostRacerX, on 20 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

No and hell no! Repair and rearm were distractions and a money sync. What a pain in the butt feature that was. Let it rest in piece or burn in hell. Just don't let it back into the game.


For reference, ^^THIS is the type of player I was talking about earlier. Thx for the demonstration RacerX!

#297 Sephlock

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostTlmitf, on 17 May 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

I want to be able to auto-resupply the consumables in the module slots.
I use the coolant flush, so i want to be able to auto-resupply that, rather than have to go back into the mech lab every match.

Just wait about 6 months and you might get those things. <3.

#298 Hotthedd

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

View Posthammerreborn, on 20 May 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:



There is nothing that wouldn't be detrimental to new players while having no effect on current players without redoing a complete cbill/mc wipe, and that will NEVER happen. As long as veteran players will have been able to amass giant swaths of loot and money, they will forever hold a leg up on new players that will be constantly killed trying to buy their first or second mech.

Even if you removed it for the cadet bonus, that helps you for your first mech only. Who hasn't bought a ****** mech on the first go around? Oh, sorry you didn't read the forums timmy and learned that dragons are the worst heavies ever, shoulda picked that poptarting highlander! Have fun playing 100 losing matches getting cored instantly to afford a Jenner.

Oh, sure, I lose 100k a match because I just buy consumables for the hell of it and spend it at the start of the match, timmy, and one day you too will be able to purchase 6 million c-bill modules and UAVs, but right now you can't CAUSE IM RICH *****!

People who have been playing longer are going to have advantages over new players all the time. This is not a bad thing.

#299 blinkin

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostKeifomofutu, on 20 May 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

Sneaky buddy. You avoided saying R&R once during that whole spiel. Maybe because you know that R&R is hugely divisive at its core. The people against R&R have heard all the arguments for it. But none of them are particularly true. Trying to say it brings balance is a huge red herring. It forces the freemiums to use cheap mechs but leaves those who pay stronger. You will never shake that part of it.

More importantly anyone from closed beta actually experienced R&R. It added nothing positive to the game, caused nothing but problems with player behavior, and likely drove away many people. Nobody wants it back but people who either don't know better or people who should have learned the lesson the first time.

was i wrong? explain to me why RR is so inherently divisive. what makes this idea so utterly offensive at its core?

and now we have everyone except the new players using the most powerful mechs and the new players get universally screwed. before the poor fools who decided to try this game for the first time at least had a mild chance of running into something that didn't entirely out class them. now new players get to enjoy dieing hopelessly over and over again. <-that does not make for a good first impression of a game.

and last i checked there are at least 2 of us in this thread alone who have founders tags and enjoyed repair and rearm, but you have already played us off as "people who should have learned the lesson the first time". obviously your opinions are the only ones that could possibly be right.

some of us like myself have had far less fun since the challenge of keeping a mech healthy was taken away. now the game is all about cranking out as much DPS as possible, the art of mech design has been stripped away and anything that doesn't have the best of the best possible equipment on every front has no place in the game.

some of us don't want this damned care bear crap and would like some real challenge involved in the game past the point of just earning your primary mechs. these are gigantic ancient machines that few truly understand, and if you beat the crap out of them on a mission then it should come out of your frigging pay check.

#300 Vassago Rain

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostHotthedd, on 20 May 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

People who have been playing longer are going to have advantages over new players all the time. This is not a bad thing.


When you directly punish new players by taking away 4 of every 5 dollars, yes. Then it's a terrible thing, and your game earns a bad rep.

Which we got rid off when they dumped RnR. It's never coming back.





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