1017 replies to this topic

[Miles Naismith]

Glucose, on 19 December 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

I would like to see one change that would help immensely.

• Narc is no longer affected by ECM

Yes. Narc should have a more powerful Radar signal than ECM, but in return only lasts for 30-60secs. Narc is a pretty large investment, especially if you want to get all targets (ammunition is currently 5/ton, I believe) so it needs to last a while.

[DocBach]

Noth, on 19 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

They just need to remove the null signature system from the ECM implementation. Make it like it is in TT (this includes blocking the shared info we currently have as that is basically the C3 system) and add in that it increases locking time. It does not prevent locks or prevent you from targeting them.

Leave the blocking locks and preventing being picked up by sensors to the null signature system.

Exactly. You should be able to still be able to lock on to ECM equipped 'Mechs - but if you get in their bubble, you shouldn't be able to transmit data as a spotter for your support. TAG didn't need a buff, ECM needs to be toned down.

NARC on the other hand should gain a massive duration buff, but should readily be defeated by ECM.

Edited by DocBach, 19 December 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Noth]

DocBach, on 19 December 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Exactly. You should be able to still be able to lock on to ECM equipped 'Mechs - but if you get in their bubble, you shouldn't be able to transmit data as a spotter for your support. TAG didn't need a buff, ECM needs to be toned down.

NARC on the other hand should gain a massive duration buff, but should readily be defeated by ECM.

NARC should also make it so you don't need LoS on the NARC'd target.

[Garrath]

Really they should consider doing something like...allow ECM on all mechs, BUT limit all matches to 2 ecm per side max. Instead of 8mans and whatnot ending up with 8 ECM per side, this might actually bring some tactics back into matches.

[Sprouticus]

re: narc


1) I think every is in agreement that the bump they gave narc in timing is still not enough.
2) We need to either buff narc and make it piece the ECM bubble (which is no canon but would be a nice counter for ECM) or
3) or we need to nerf ECM a little bit (not a ton) using some of the suggestions above.

(A lot of those suggestions are really good IMO. Nice job being reasonable eveyrone).

[FrostCollar]

Noth, on 19 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

They just need to remove the null signature system from the ECM implementation. Make it like it is in TT (this includes blocking the shared info we currently have as that is basically the C3 system) and add in that it increases locking time. It does not prevent locks or prevent you from targeting them.

Leave the blocking locks and preventing being picked up by sensors to the null signature system.

This sounds good, and I would also be for a null signature system. Dedicated EWAR mechs can still be stealthy, but only if they want to pay for it in heat, space, and weight. I've always been confused at the increased lock-on time for ECM. With its current cloaking and jamming effects, the increased lock on time has never come up for me unless I'm carrying TAG.

In addition, ECM apparently got a minor nerf. "Only the closest mech is fully disrupted." What exactly does this mean?

[Noth]

FrostCollar, on 19 December 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

This sounds good, and I would also be for a null signature system. Dedicated EWAR mechs can still be stealthy, but only if they want to pay for it in heat, space, and weight. I've always been confused at the increased lock-on time for ECM. With its current cloaking and jamming effects, the increased lock on time has never come up for me unless I'm carrying TAG.

In addition, ECM apparently got a minor nerf. "Only the closest mech is fully disrupted." What exactly does this mean?

That just refers to the ECCM mode. Instead of effecting all ECM modules in the area, it now counters only one. This actually means you now need to bring more ECM mechs.

[FrostCollar]

Noth, on 19 December 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

That just refers to the ECCM mode. Instead of effecting all ECM modules in the area, it now counters only one. This actually means you now need to bring more ECM mechs.

Wait, are you talking about blocking other ECM? That's not a change as far as I'm aware. I certainly wasn't able to jam multiple ECM mechs before the patch.

[Snib]

FrostCollar, on 19 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Wait, are you talking about blocking other ECM? That's not a change as far as I'm aware. I certainly wasn't able to jam multiple ECM mechs before the patch.

Yes you were if none of them were in counter mode.

[LynxFury]

Disagree with the OP. That just weakens the mid and long range game even more.

--
Not really up for changes to crits or tonnage for ECM since those seem pretty consistent between MWO and TT/TROs.

Think we could add off switch to ECM and when it's on have it produce quite a bit of heat.

--
One interesting use for TAG I've found is using it to scan for enemies when I wasn't running thermal.

[FrostCollar]

Snib, on 19 December 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Yes you were if none of them were in counter mode.

Ah, I misunderstood. In which case, ECM is in fact more powerful.

Garrath, on 19 December 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Really they should consider doing something like...allow ECM on all mechs, BUT limit all matches to 2 ecm per side max. Instead of 8mans and whatnot ending up with 8 ECM per side, this might actually bring some tactics back into matches.

Maybe limiting ECM could work, but I definitely don't agree with ECM on all mechs. There are some powerful builds that don't have ECM right now and I think that's a good thing. If anything, ECM carriers should be less powerful than they are now, instead of allowing any old mech to take ECM. I'm not looking forward to the ECM Streakcat.

Edited by FrostCollar, 19 December 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Snib]

Exactly. Guess we all missed the cries to buff ECM that prompted this change.

[Shazbotian]

Noth, on 19 December 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

They just need to remove the null signature system from the ECM implementation. Make it like it is in TT (this includes blocking the shared info we currently have as that is basically the C3 system) and add in that it increases locking time. It does not prevent locks or prevent you from targeting them.

Leave the blocking locks and preventing being picked up by sensors to the null signature system.

This.

My biggest gripe with ECM is, as has been mentioned earlier, that it prevents the two most useful weapons used to counter light mechs: LRMs and, more signficantly, streak SRMs. I used to carry streak srms on many of my mechs simply so I had something I could use against the lights that were running circles around me; now I find myself almost completetly powerless against them (if they have ECM).

[DocBach]

Streaks should have been fixed by making them either lock on to the location the reticle was pointed on or opening their grouping, not by adding stealth armor null sig ECM.

[Vashramire]

From Sarna

Quote

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes

I would understand this to mean that any and all jamming would happen at or within 180m. Possibly nullifying BAP and target sharing with C3 and Artemis at all ranges but still allowing missile locks (at current 25% increased lock time for enemy being under ECM) but limiting them to LOS. There is a great deal of leniency in how to read its functionality and I'm not sure what would truely make it "balanced" since everyone seems to have different views on how OP it is and how they would like it fixed, but how I described if think would be relatively fair for everyone if not a step in the right direction.

[Abivard]

the one fricking thing every person conceded was that counter could be stronger...and counter received a serious nerf?

I am dumbfounded.

[Abivard]

One ECM on disrupt can soak up to 8 enemy mechs ECM's on counter. Allowing his 7 team mates to stay under ecm, they simply have the loner stay closest to the center of enemy mob.

Run these fricking changes by someone with an evil mind before you dump them ShOot!

[LionZoo]

Yes I agree, ECM is still OP. My solution is simple: allow LRMs and Streaks to lock-on like normal and compensate by making Streaks harder to use through either a longer time to lock on, require re-locking between shots, and/or make it easier to break lock. My reasoning below:

1) Guardian ECM never prevented LRM and Streak fire in canon. They were still able to fire as normal. It was Artemis etc. that was jammed, but this change leaves the jam in place.

2) LRMs are still partially countered by ECM because of the 180m minimum combined with the 200m for detection. The main problem that LRMs had against ECMs was the area effect jamming that protected everyone in the bubble. This remains so TAG will still have a use: to spot for LRMs.

3) Streaks are now much more useful against ECM. This helps fix one of the biggest OP things about ECM: the light ECM Mech that can Streak you while you can't Streak them (and you can't shoot them with direct fire due to lagshield). Now the Streaks are useful again against the light ECM Mechs. The corresponding nerf to Streaks making them harder to target will make Streakcats less viable though. (I really like the require lock-on again between shots idea.)

Full disclosure: I have never owned a Streakcat or a Mech of that nature. I have never owned a LRM boat either. I have no real interest in owning missile boats. I do own a Raven 3L with Streaks, but that's because I like to win and they're so so soooooo effective. I am heavily biased towards piloting light Mechs in general, and in the sneaking around style of warfare in particular. However, even I can see that ECM lights are pretty damn OP at the moment.

[Numberwang]

I only beat the deadest of horses, so here I am.

This small, light weight piece of equipment does entirely too much for its "cost". We've all seen the list of what its 1.5t and 2 crit slots can counter. Try that with a small laser and a heatsink. Or a MG and 1t of ammo. In a game of design trade offs this piece of equipment has no downside because it's benefit outweighs its cost by orders of magnitude.

It can do all the lovely things on the list if it gets within the 180m. That's fine. That means your sticking your neck out and at least putting yourself in danger (ignore lag shield for the sake of this argument). The bubble that makes engaging at range with LRMs needs to go. There is no drawback to this mode of ECM, stay back and safe and give your team an advantage.

And the counter to this is ... Buffed TAG? So 1t 1 crit and one hard point (lowering potential damage) to be able to target one ECM protected person and I have to use a modicum of skill to keep it on target and in direct LOS. Versus ECM that is passive and protects 1-8 people, it's a bubble not needing LOS, we know it's size, and doesn't take hard point. This is not balance.

[gamingcthulhu]

My biggest issue with ECM is that this 1.5 ton system with 2 crit slots has the potential to render 2 whole Weapon Systems useless (LRM,SSRM) and negates 4 sub sytems (Artemis, Beagle, NARC,TAG within 180m). Additionally it can cloak an entire team and has no downsides.

That's a lot of benefit such a little system and essentially negates way to much. Instead of having ECM as it currently stands as a giant bubble that counters everything with no draw backs I really think a simple change that could fix it would be to removed the ECM disrupt mode and make ECM have a "bubble" mode that will provide the negation of the 4 subsystems and increase lock times by 2 or 3 or a "concentrated" mode that provides all the current benefits of ECM with the addition of fully negating TAG but with only a 50-75m range essentially turning this "Super" ECM into a personal shield or a Fire Support Mech disruptor.

Cause the way it is right now 3/4 of the matches I play with a dedicated fire support mech end up with me getting off maybe 3 volleys that actually connect do to constant ECM bubbles either on my targets down range or from scouts sneaking around to me. Which to be honest the scouts on me should be more effective then the ECM mech down range because he actually took the time to find me and get on top of me and thus really is a more fun and effective counter ten saying just having 4 Assault Mechs with ECM keeping together is cause that is the role they should be doing anyways and as such are not really preforming any special task but are negating everything an indirect fire support mech is designed to do.

Also with ECM being designed to just flood targeting data making it disrupt all (friend and foe alike) would also bring balance to it as right now for such a little system it's power is off the charts.