1017 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I'm not saying you must join an organized team outside the scope of this game. I am saying that even a PUG team can be organized using tools at their disposal (including, but not limited to, such things as the C3 integrated VOIP, freely available PUG teamspeak servers found in my sig, and even the horrible chat system)...

In other words, PUGs have to organize themselves within the match. Nothing wrong there. If, however, they do not play as a team, they will lose - whether ECM is around or not and whether the game is perfectly balanced or not...

C3 is not integrated for pugs, you have to be in a group to use it (you really should actually research something before you make such a statement). I will also add that they have seemed to drop integrating C3 further. Once you actually log in and form a group in TS for dropping, you are no longer a pug. Pugs can be organized by the text chat, but are still at a severe disadvantaged against another pug that brings ECM as it pretty much completely blocks off the non verbal communication that pugs rely on (map sharing, target spotting, etc). So again, you have to balance for a pug. look at the games I listed, only one has integrated voip, the other has people that just flat out ignore the voip. You need to balance around people not using the voip to make the pug experience good.

Edited by Noth, 01 January 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[Ram71]

love it or hate it ecm is here and it is part of the universe so tweaked or not it will remain. leave if you have to but many more will join and not even know there is a problem ...... that's the beauty of open beta. people who didn't see the closed beta and are going to see things from a completely different point of view.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

C3 is not integrated for pugs, you have to be in a group to use it (you really should actually research something before you make such a statement). I will also add that they have seemed to drop integrating C3 further. Once you actually log in and form a group in TS for dropping, you are no longer a pug. Pugs can be organized by the text chat, but are still at a severe disadvantaged against another pug that brings ECM as it pretty much completely blocks off the non verbal communication that pugs rely on (map sharing, target spotting, etc). So again, you have to balance for a pug. look at the games I listed, only one has integrated voip, the other has people that just flat out ignore the voip. You need to balance around people not using the voip to make the pug experience good.

I've used it in PUGs... unfortunately, nobody was on which has to do with the fact it hasn't worked very well since it was implemented. I have said it elsewhere (though I don't remember if it was in this thread) that a Dev statement as to its current status would be helpful. Since I haven't been able to thoroughly test it given the limited number of people using it, I will simply have to take your word for it. I have only ever been able to have one conversation on it.

Many people on the TS servers hang around in the lobby and then join a different channel once the drop has been made. This does not make people a premade, but a PUG group.

And the last time I check, ECM did not disable the chat. Perhaps a simple 'help d6' is too hard for some to type....

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 01 January 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I've used it in PUGs... unfortunately, nobody was on which has to do with the fact it hasn't worked very well since it was implemented. I have said it elsewhere (though I don't remember if it was in this thread) that a Dev statement as to its current status would be helpful. Since I haven't been able to thoroughly test it given the limited number of people using it, I will simply have to take your word for it. I have only ever been able to have one conversation on it.

Many people on the TS servers hang around in the lobby and then join a different channel once the drop has been made. This does not make people a premade, but a PUG group.

And the last time I check, ECM did not disable the chat. Perhaps a simple 'help d6' is too hard for some to type....

Yeah and that is ultimately slower than saying it or looking at the map. I've seen numerous times that people have died while typing out a quick command. ECM is a huge advantage in a pug game.

And no, they are not a pug, they have formed a group outside of the drop. That is not a pug.

[StalaggtIKE]

Ram71, on 01 January 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

love it or hate it ecm is here and it is part of the universe so tweaked or not it will remain. leave if you have to but many more will join and not even know there is a problem ...... that's the beauty of open beta. people who didn't see the closed beta and are going to see things from a completely different point of view.

No one has asked for ECM to be removed, only to be balanced. You are right however, new players will have a warped POV: mostly that radar, lrm and ssrm are inconsistent. Once they realize ECM is the cause, they jump on the bandwagon, if only momentarily.

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yeah and that is ultimately slower than saying it or looking at the map. I've seen numerous times that people have died while typing out a quick command. ECM is a huge advantage in a pug game.

And no, they are not a pug, they have formed a group outside of the drop. That is not a pug.

Wrong. They have formed the group once the PUG drop has been created. In other words, they leave the lobby where 200 people are and move to a different channel so they can communicate. They didn't form their communication group before the drop and they aren't even friends on the social part of the game. As such, this is still a PUG group.

Unless you are saying that by using Teamspeak at all, they are a premade, then you would also be wrong.

[ICEFANG13]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

LMAO. Tell that to the team I ripped with a 6 PPC stalker (5 kills, 3 assists). They even had the "over-powered ECM LRM mechs"...



No, it certainly isn't the best, but it is a hassle. But then again, it is supposed to be by design, isn't it...



Oh, I forgot - you are of the mindset that LRMs cannot be dumb-fired. As I have said in the past, I can't help you on this matter as it only shows how inexperienced you are with this game...



It is like you are not understanding anything and are wanting to try the same type of strawman arguments that your buddy StalaggtIKE uses when he can't think of a proper argument either. Ah well, there is no helping some...



I'm sorry, I do have a life outside of this game and this forum. Perhaps you should go find yourself one instead of crying here.

Oh my god, you had one good game without ECM on your mech, now ECM is balanced, that was really easy huh?

So why are ECM mechs focused first? Because ECM sucks? Or is it because people just hate Raven-3Ls? You even said people kill ECM mechs first, and then the most damaging? That sounds terrible.

Honestly, if you consider dumb firing LRMs a valid strategy, then there is no help for you. I hate for this to become so basic, obviously, you feel it works, and I don't, why don't we leave it at that, as this is an opinion, and not a fact.

What in the world is wrong with your brain man. Name one disadvantage for ECM, why would I not want to bring it on a Raven-3L. I proved what you said was wrong, and you fail to bring up more points. ECM isn't OP, I just played my 6 PPC Stalker. orly.jpeg. ECM isn't OP, for no reason, its just a hassle. How is this even an argument? It doesn't say anything. ECM is no advantage against LRMs huh? Protip, you can dumb fire LRMs on a mech with or without ECM, and anyone who says that dumb fire LRMs are better than smart fired ones is wrong. Smart LRMs do more damage because they hit more, this shows directly and factually ECM weakens LRMs heavily. LRMs have 2 modes, dumb and smart, ECM eliminates the better one. ECM isn't op because why again?

Who here has made a Raven-3L without ECM after ECM was working? I'd happily take a vote. I can put me down for no.

[Willie Sauerland]

StalaggtIKE, on 01 January 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

No one has asked for ECM to be removed, only to be balanced. You are right however, new players will have a warped POV: mostly that radar, lrm and ssrm are inconsistent. Once they realize ECM is the cause, they jump on the bandwagon, if only momentarily.

I would rather hope they ask somebody how to counter it and how to play more effectively. However, there will be those who will whine and complain. We've already seen enough evidence of that....

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Wrong. They have formed the group once the PUG drop has been created. In other words, they leave the lobby where 200 people are and move to a different channel so they can communicate. They didn't form their communication group before the drop and they aren't even friends on the social part of the game. As such, this is still a PUG group.

Unless you are saying that by using Teamspeak at all, they are a premade, then you would also be wrong.

Then, that is not a reliable way for groups to communicate. Heck very few use it as I've met no one in the game that actually does. Most people will not use such a system. People often ignore integrated VoIP systems, you can be sure that a non integrated system will get even less use. You cannot force people to use it. The game has to be balanced without it. It is simply the nature of the gaming market.

[DocBach]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I would rather hope they ask somebody how to counter it and how to play more effectively. However, there will be those who will whine and complain. We've already seen enough evidence of that....

Countering it means bringing more ECM of your own, and forgoing any weapons that require locks. It cuts out a lot of roles from their deep Role Warfare pillar they've been advertising, doesn't it?

[Mudhawk]

Draako, on 01 January 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

....
I've played this game since closed and have seen a lot of changes good and bad. I am sure there will be many more tweaks and changes in the future, if this version of MWO doesn't suit your play style I am sure there will be changes in the future that you will like. ECM will most likely be kept in the game so if you are looking for its removal I doubt you will see that, but I do think we will see tweaks in its powers and abilities.

Full marks for this one.
I only want to add that, once colissions are back in play I'm sure a lot of people will have a whole new world of things to complain about and ECM will much less of a topic as it is now.
I'll make sure to make screenshots of the first couple of Ravens and Commandos crashing into the Atlas I reserved for that occasion. :-}

[ICEFANG13]

Haha Tolkien, very good testing, I can't believe how few TAGs there are, but considering how weak TAG is to ECM, it kinda makes sense.

I also think it's humorous that of all games, only 1 had no-ECM other than you.

[Noth]

Willie Sauerland, on 01 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I would rather hope they ask somebody how to counter it and how to play more effectively. However, there will be those who will whine and complain. We've already seen enough evidence of that....

You counter ECM with more ECM. TAG is not a valid counter as you can do more damage with direct fire weapons in the time it takes to lock on with it. That's it. That is how you counter it. dumbfiring LRMs does not counter it (seriously, I've only seen one time it worked and it was against a stationary mech). Thermals in a way counter ECM, but that just means you run thermals nearly all the time, which is not a good design.

Let me say this again, ECM is a crappy design. It has actually limited gameplay, made some tactics stupidly easy, and rewards lazy play just for carrying a 1.5 tone two slot item.

[Orion Solitaire]

ECM forced me to find a group to play with. Since then, my K/D ratio went up an easy .15. Can the information warfare be improved? Yes, it can. Will it be improved? Hopefully.

Until then, I encourage everyone to group up and start playing in lances with coordinated drops and some kine of voice comms whtere it be C3 or Teamspeak. It makes a BIG difference.

[PiemasterXL]

Mudhawk, on 01 January 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Full marks for this one.
I only want to add that, once colissions are back in play I'm sure a lot of people will have a whole new world of things to complain about and ECM will much less of a topic as it is now.
I'll make sure to make screenshots of the first couple of Ravens and Commandos crashing into the Atlas I reserved for that occasion. :-}

[Willie Sauerland]

ICEFANG13, on 01 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Oh my god, you had one good game without ECM on your mech, now ECM is balanced, that was really easy huh?

I often have good games. Your point is?

Quote

So why are ECM mechs focused first? Because ECM sucks? Or is it because people just hate Raven-3Ls? You even said people kill ECM mechs first, and then the most damaging? That sounds terrible.

Why is that terrible? Which do you kill first, the wasp of the fly? Most people I know would kill the fly because it is more annoying even though the sting of the wasp will hurt more. Your argument (which I'm being polite here as it really isn't) lacks any tactical sense - which also explains why you have difficulties with this game.

Quote

Honestly, if you consider dumb firing LRMs a valid strategy, then there is no help for you. I hate for this to become so basic, obviously, you feel it works, and I don't, why don't we leave it at that, as this is an opinion, and not a fact.

Huh? LRMs are capable of being dumb fired effectively. This is a fact as many others have done this as well. Your statement is opinion because you don't believe it is possible and do not have the requisite skill set to make it work. Your failure to adapt is your problem and not mine.

Quote

What in the world is wrong with your brain man. Name one disadvantage for ECM, why would I not want to bring it on a Raven-3L. I proved what you said was wrong, and you fail to bring up more points. ECM isn't OP, I just played my 6 PPC Stalker. orly.jpeg. ECM isn't OP, for no reason, its just a hassle. How is this even an argument? It doesn't say anything. ECM is no advantage against LRMs huh? Protip, you can dumb fire LRMs on a mech with or without ECM, and anyone who says that dumb fire LRMs are better than smart fired ones is wrong. Smart LRMs do more damage because they hit more, this shows directly and factually ECM weakens LRMs heavily. LRMs have 2 modes, dumb and smart, ECM eliminates the better one. ECM isn't op because why again?

Who here has made a Raven-3L without ECM after ECM was working? I'd happily take a vote. I can put me down for no.

Go play your PUG matches. I am finished with you. Your inability to play means more kills and salvage to the other team. And yes, I am ignoring that last little rant. I have said all I need to say and do not need to prove you wrong anymore. I do hope, however, I get to meet your Raven 3L on the field.

[Noth]

Orion Solitaire, on 01 January 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

ECM forced me to find a group to play with. Since then, my K/D ratio went up an easy .15. Can the information warfare be improved? Yes, it can. Will it be improved? Hopefully.

Until then, I encourage everyone to group up and start playing in lances with coordinated drops and some kine of voice comms whtere it be C3 or Teamspeak. It makes a BIG difference.

That is flawed thinking. You should not be forced to group up just because of one system that was added to the game.

[DocBach]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

That is flawed thinking. You should not be forced to group up just because of one system that was added to the game.

Thing is, I play with a group that has more than 150 registered users. Even before ECM a lot of them were no longer regular members as they felt the gameplay got stagnant. Instead of revitalizing interest, ECM turned even more off, as now to be competitive in battle we were required to run all D-DC and Raven 3L ECM boats. A lot of people left completely, or now only play four mans where ECM isn't as large of a factor.

[StalaggtIKE]

Before there was ECM, I remember a complete stranger on my team selecting a target and chatting "focus on Beta." And the team would focus fire. Now it's a guy "stranded" in ECM bubble typing "help in F6." For those quickest to respond, get there to be ambushed by the whole enemy team; access to the minimap would have avoided this. No instead you're best to be in TS so you can yell "the whole f*ing team snuck up on me."

[Willie Sauerland]

Noth, on 01 January 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

You counter ECM with more ECM. TAG is not a valid counter as you can do more damage with direct fire weapons in the time it takes to lock on with it. That's it. That is how you counter it. dumbfiring LRMs does not counter it (seriously, I've only seen one time it worked and it was against a stationary mech). Thermals in a way counter ECM, but that just means you run thermals nearly all the time, which is not a good design.

Wrong on so many levels. I don't always run thermals. In fact, I only run them if I am sniping or on River City Night (I also use night vision there). However, ECM does not prevent me from hitting another mech with anything except SSRMs (which I don't use because they are an easy button and don't work properly).

Dumb firing LRMs can be quite effective. The fact you have only seen it used once on a stationary mech does not negate the experience of those who have done it.

It is true, new players will not find the teamspeak servers because they don't check the forums, but then again, I don't know anybody who would play a BETA game and not check the forums. I do wish the C3 were more reliable and that more people were using it.

And as I have said elsewhere, the new player experience needs a lot of work as simply using the MechLab has a high learning curve let alone playing a big stompy robot. This isn't to say PUG matches should not be balanced (and I am a firm believer that the ELO match-making system will help significantly), but simply saying ECM is the reason why PUG matches are so hard or unbalanced is fallacious.

Which is more unbalancing in PUG matches: Premade groups or ECM?