1017 replies to this topic

[StUffz]

I have to revoke my correction. The the last time I tried Tag + LRM it without locking the enemy mech I thought to have seen my missiles have hit the enemy mech. Tried again yesterday and the results were different. Maybe my mind was playing illusions again or the drugs were just too strong.

Going forward. TAG + LRM should work same as TAG + SRM and missiles should hit as long as the enemy is tagged with no waiting for LRM lock.

Edited by StUffz, 07 January 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 07 January 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

I have to revoke my correction. The the last time I tried Tag + LRM it without locking the enemy mech I thought to have seen my missiles have hit the enemy mech. Tried again yesterday and the results were different. Maybe my mind was playing illusions again or the drugs were just too strong.

Going forward. TAG + LRM should work same as TAG + SRM and missiles should hit as long as the enemy is tagged with no waiting for LRM lock.

Maybe you got a hit with dumbfired LRMs and it looked like the TAG made them do it? Edit: Another thought from experiences with LRMs. I've noticed that if LRMs are dumbfired before the lock is solid they will not go for the target - they stay on their dumbfire trajectory. If however you get a lock, then fire the missiles, then lose the lock you can regain it any time before the missiles hit ground and they will zoom to the target even at really strange angles.

I agree that TAG would be a much better ECM counter if it granted a near instant lock, but that might cause other problems.

Edited by Tolkien, 07 January 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 07 January 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Maybe you got a hit with dumbfired LRMs and it looked like the TAG made them do it?

I agree that TAG would be a much better ECM counter if it granted a near instant lock, but that might cause other problems.

Well I can name you a problem but it would be funny as well: friendly fire when a friendly mech is tagged.

Edited by StUffz, 07 January 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

StUffz, on 07 January 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Well I can name you a problem but it would be funny as well: friendly fire when a friendly mech is tagged.

I know you can TAG your allies; but are you saying that your missiles will also follow the tagging as well!?

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 07 January 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Well I can name you a problem but it would be funny as well: friendly fire when a friendly mech is tagged.

Problem? What problem

When I run my raven and I notice incoming LRMs (usually due to ECM being countered, but maybe some TAG in there too?) I like to run tight around an enemy heavy or assault if one is nearby - that way they take some of the barrage and usually stop trying to shoot at me

[Loonix]

I've been thinking long and hard about ECM before posting feedback. Maybe someone else has covered what I'm about to say, in which case, please forgive me for not reading all 40+ pages!

Some Objective Facts about the current state of ECM

Information warfare is a concept central to the game, if I recall the Dev's correctly. Currently the only aspect of this in the game (in a modular/component sense) is ECM. I've once heard it said by the US airforce; "there are stealth planes and there are targets". This may be MW but the sentiment is the same. You either have ECM or you don't. Which means you either have access to information warfare or you don't. Which is better? Quite objectively, it's a choice between having a technological advantage or having nothing. It's OP by the very fact that there is nothing else on the playing field.

But how effective is ECM? To take mere observation and debate over player skill out of the equation, lets look at it from a component level, with a comparison to AMS. An AMS system weights .5 of a ton, although you need a ton of ammo to actually use it;

Pros: Shoots down incoming missiles, can help protect nearby team mates
Cons: Can run out of ammo, is only partially effective against large clusters of missiles (10+).

Lets compare this to ECM, which weights the same and takes the same number of critical slots.

Pros: Renders LRM and SSRM fire completely ineffective, disables nearby enemy radar which A) stops them achieving a lock on other targets regardless of distance. inhibits their tactical awareness, friends and foes will not show up C) inhibits enemy gathering loadout/damage data. Can extend these advantages to nearby team mates. Is not dependent on ammo
Cons: Can be countered by enemy ECM. Missile lock can still occasionally be achieved by TAG.

Conclusion: They weight the same, have the same number of slots, but which is better? You decide, it should be obvious.

My personal suggestions; 1) Game play would have more depth and balance if ECM's features were broken down into separate, mutually exclusive components, perhaps even separated by chassis. In the very least, guardian and disrupt could be mutually exclusive; This would also enhance role warfare. I have heard that this is how it was implemented in the TT?

2) Obvious really; we need more modules and components in regards information warfare. Or BAP, NARC and TAG will require a big buff.

I have faith the dev's will re-balance accordingly in time, but like many of you I hope sooner rather than later

EDIT: If anything I posted is incorrect, let me know!

Edited by HouseCat, 07 January 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

My respect to Tolkien for doing what he does. I just can't force myself to play the game much lately. I play a game or two, usually get ***** by ECM zergs (Raven3L is the strongest assault in the town right now), rage quit and don't play again for the rest of the day. I have a new clan and I definitely want to do stuff with them, but I still can't make myself take a mech and go shoot someone. Good thing is I have much more spare time, bad thing is I really would love to play in ECM-free environment. I would even pay, lets say, 1k MCs for never encountering the ECM again! Pity the option just isn't there, and due to lousy prolonged fix release process in PGI there won't be a fix in month or so. I feel like ***** for activating my premium time.

[Loonix]

Sudden Reversal, on 06 January 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

I do own mechs with ECM but I very rarely play them, it makes me feel dirty and I believe is doing this game a disservice.

You can thank people with morals and a good sense of proportion for having any sort of diversity in drops. As it currently stands with ECM and game balance, those that prefer the path of least resistance take it and play ezymode.

I agree entirely. In closed beta I fell in love with the Jenner and Commando, but once the Lagshield got bad I put them to one side, and haven't really played them since. Thankfully I have grown to love Centurions since, but I do miss my Jenner... and every time I see a player abusing lack of collisions and lag it makes my skin crawl. Part of me wants to jump in the Jenner and hunt them down! But then I'd be contributing to the problem.

Nothing worse at the moment than starting a match and realising 8 of 16 mechs on the field are lights, especially when they're all ravens!

[Tolkien]

HouseCat, on 07 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

I agree entirely. In closed beta I fell in love with the Jenner and Commando, but once the Lagshield got bad I put them to one side, and haven't really played them since. Thankfully I have grown to love Centurions since, but I do miss my Jenner... and every time I see a player abusing lack of collisions and lag it makes my skin crawl. Part of me wants to jump in the Jenner and hunt them down! But then I'd be contributing to the problem.

Nothing worse at the moment than starting a match and realising 8 of 16 mechs on the field are lights, especially when they're all ravens!

Would you consider adopting my naming convention and calling them the "Craven 3L"? (Or trollmando 2D)

Here's a definition for the term Craven:

Quote

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/craven
Unwilling to fight; lacking even the rudiments of courage; extremely cowardly.

I think the name fits rather well, don't you?

Edited by Tolkien, 07 January 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

So after a 3 week hiatus, I played some MWO this weekend. ECM wasn't much of an issue; I decided to fight "cheese" with more "cheese." If this game is destined to become a brawl fest, then why not bring a brawler? I ran a dual AC20 Catapult with desirable effect. It makes me wonder how many of these "ECM is fine" guys, pilot such filth.

ECM needs to be toned down; this is no longer Mech Warrior.

[Tzukasa]

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. What needs to happen is a slight 10-20% bubble size reduction and a clear LOS to the target should Only Slow Down Lock NOT Prevent it completely. Maybe even change the disrupt effect to only remove the enemys from the radar instead of enemys and friendlys. But def reduce the range of it and make the LOS change. Making people invuln to lockon is asinine, period.

That would seriously fix most of the probs and be a SIMPLE fix that could be put in based on a single intern's, single afternoon's work heh.

[StalaggtIKE]

HouseCat, on 07 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Nothing worse at the moment than starting a match and realising 8 of 16 mechs on the field are lights, especially when they're all ravens!

For me it's when I see several lights besides RVN-3L or COM-2D on my team. As the matchmaker probably has paired us against a team of ECM lights. You become a liability for your team when you choose a non-ECM light.

[StUffz]

StalaggtIKE, on 07 January 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

I know you can TAG your allies; but are you saying that your missiles will also follow the tagging as well!?

No it does not. Tolkien and I were talking about issues when LRM would be allowed to overwrite the lock targeting when TAG is used to mark.

I just replied that one of those issues would be that more friendly fire would occur because TAG overwrites IFF.

[Corvus Antaka]

Whats sad to me is that pre-ecm I had some awesome matches with my commando 2D, epic fights, even some where I ended up winning the match and getting 5 kills at the end.

Now I cant even stomach taking it because

1) If i run into 2 raven 3L's, my streaks are useless

2) If I don't, I slaughter the newbs in assault mechs and make them ragequit MWO.

ECM should never negate missile lock, only extend the lock timer, and it should not be costing us radar signals or be requiring LOS & TAG to function.

My LRM mech used to be 4 Mlaser and 2 LRM 15 with Jumpjets. a catapult, on a building, launching LRMS.

Now my LRM mech is 3 meds, a TAG and 2 LRM 15, and I'm playing "hold the TAG on the Raven" 50% of the time.

The loss of indirect fire and radar is horrible for this game and really is just turning the game into another CS/CoD shooter. I find myself playing more and more Tribes:Ascend every day, and that makes me sad

[StUffz]

StalaggtIKE, on 07 January 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

So after a 3 week hiatus, I played some MWO this weekend. ECM wasn't much of an issue; I decided to fight "cheese" with more "cheese." If this game is destined to become a brawl fest, then why not bring a brawler? I ran a dual AC20 Catapult with desirable effect. It makes me wonder how many of these "ECM is fine" guys, pilot such filth.

ECM needs to be toned down; this is no longer Mech Warrior.

Ehm. Catapult with dual AC20? Try out the Stalker. If there is anything painfull, then a SRM boat with TAG on your cockpit...

[Loonix]

Tolkien, on 07 January 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Would you consider adopting my naming convention and calling them the "Craven 3L"? (Or trollmando 2D)

Works for me! Plenty of popular builds already have slang names to define their loadout. Although based on build, 80% of Ravens are Cravens at the moment anyway.

Tzukasa, on 07 January 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. What needs to happen is a slight 10-20% bubble size reduction and a clear LOS to the target should Only Slow Down Lock NOT Prevent it completely. Maybe even change the disrupt effect to only remove the enemys from the radar instead of enemys and friendlys. But def reduce the range of it and make the LOS change. Making people invuln to lockon is asinine, period.

That would seriously fix most of the probs and be a SIMPLE fix that could be put in based on a single intern's, single afternoon's work heh.

Not a bad idea, and it could be a quick fix. If it worked well enough, it could be a permanent fix.

StalaggtIKE, on 07 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

For me it's when I see several lights besides RVN-3L or COM-2D on my team. As the matchmaker probably has paired us against a team of ECM lights. You become a liability for your team when you choose a non-ECM light.

Haha so true. I actually had a match recently where my team included; two Raven 2X, one Raven 3L, one Jenner-K and a Commando 1B. I couldn't help but think... "you picked the wrong raven!"

Long story short; you can guess what lights the other team had, and you can guess who won the match!

[Loonix]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 07 January 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

My LRM mech used to be 4 Mlaser and 2 LRM 15 with Jumpjets. a catapult, on a building, launching LRMS.

Now my LRM mech is 3 meds, a TAG and 2 LRM 15, and I'm playing "hold the TAG on the Raven" 50% of the time.

The loss of indirect fire and radar is horrible for this game and really is just turning the game into another CS/CoD shooter. I find myself playing more and more Tribes:Ascend every day, and that makes me sad

I've been trying to get LRMs to work while grinding three stalkers, compromising my build bit-by-bit, until eventually removing LRMs altogether. They are far to hit and miss to be worth it to me. They were already hit and miss prior to ECM.

The game is all about brawling right now, so all of my stalkers have the same build; big engine, srms, medium lasers. Sad but true. Once I get the grind done there is no point in keeping more than one.

Edited by HouseCat, 07 January 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

HouseCat, on 07 January 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Haha so true. I actually had a match recently where my team included; two Raven 2X, one Raven 3L, one Jenner-K and a Commando 1B. I couldn't help but think... "you picked the wrong raven!"

I can't help myselt but think they picked the wrong light mech. Which is rather disappointing since I have all Jenners elite and still love them, but I just can't take one and go to battle because that would mean the enemy would get one more light Mech to counter me, and that one will probably have ECM, so I will make my team loose since because of me the enemy will have one more ECM than we do.
Bad, bad game design.

[StalaggtIKE]

StUffz, on 07 January 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Ehm. Catapult with dual AC20? Try out the Stalker. If there is anything painfull, then a SRM boat with TAG on your cockpit...

One of these day I may give that a try. For now, I am enjoying the grief I'm causing with this setup.

Mordin Ashe, on 07 January 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

I can't help myselt but think they picked the wrong light mech. Which is rather disappointing since I have all Jenners elite and still love them, but I just can't take one and go to battle because that would mean the enemy would get one more light Mech to counter me, and that one will probably have ECM, so I will make my team loose since because of me the enemy will have one more ECM than we do.
Bad, bad game design.

I've gotten to the point that I get extremely pissed to see a non-ECM light on my team. It's the equivalent to trolling IMO. They might as well drop in a cored mech.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 07 January 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Skyscream Sapphire]

ECM is terrible. If you don't think so, you've never seen a good pilot in an ECM mech. I had never played a light chassis until recently. I had thought ECM was a bit OP, but I'd just shoot the legs out from under the Raven-3Ls and move on with my life.

Then I actually went into a mechlab tool and saw what you could fit into a Craven-3L. Holy crap. 2 streaks? 3 lasers? Run 136 without even having speed tweak?

In the whole time I've played this cheeseball I think I've died 3 times. The first because I essentially legged myself learning how to just drive a super fast light. Another because I stupidly ran around in the open in front of LRM boats while being counter jammed (the only viable counter to ECM is...more ECM?). And one legitimate they had good aim and actually shot me kill. One. While I was grinding out the BASIC pilot skills.

Oh, and by the way, this is mostly while solo PUGing. I've had multiple matches where I'm the last one on my team against 3-5 assaults and heavies and still won. It's stupid. They can't hit me direct fire because of the size and speed (and lack of targeting information makes what shots they do make less effective) and they can't lock on because of the ECM. Bad pilots are bad pilots regardless of equipment, but this is pretty much an I Win button for a good pilot against non ECM mechs.

You know what 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots buys you? Slightly shorter lock on times and longer sensor range with a BAP. Wouldn't it make sense then that ECM, same weight and size, should just make the enemy have slightly longer lock on times (on you only), maybe have to get slightly closer (~10-15%) to pick you up on sensors, AND THAT'S IT? No radar invisibility, no lock on denial, no information sharing destruction, no loss of target information (weapons and rag doll), no NARC counter, no TAG counter, no ARTEMIS counter, etc.

I'm not at all surprised now why the serious meta gaming teams in the 8 mans where running all DDCs and 3Ls.

I think the only reason we don't see MORE of ECM is because people are exercising voluntary restraint. They'd rather have fun running a variety of mechs and equipment than a single variant of 4 chassis with the same basic loadout. It would be nice if the game mechanics actually supported and encouraged the behavior that people think is more fun.