23 replies to this topic

[Tharkan Stuermer]

I think, that the best idea to nerf LRM-boats is to implement some of the TT rules into MWO: indirect LRM-fire should need a spotter. I'd suggest, that if a TAG-equipped unit designates a target, LRM boats should be able to attack it with indirect fire. Otherwise, they won't be able to do this.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

If you do not have LOS, you already need a spotter. TAG is just something to increase your lock-on capabilities. Either you spot and don't have TAG or don't want to use it, because you could be spotted then, you kill the whole idea of spotting. TAG is a bonus, not a primary element.

Also, LRMs are not OP. Use AMS and hide if possibe. Every weapon got its prupose, advantage and disadvantage. If I face an LRM boat, which is standing alone, I just close the hell in and tear it apart on close range.

Edited by Shevchen, 26 December 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

I just got back from a holiday that closely followed finals, so I'll try to respond to everything.

Angelicon, on 26 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I agree with your first sentence. But TAG being a hard counter to ECM is not only logical, it is a good thing...
ECM needs a serious kick in the nuts and I think TAG as a hard counter is the perfect steel-toed boot for the job. Assuming it didn't get one while I've been away for a week

I understand where you're coming from, but the counter to equipment should not purely be some other piece of equipment. It should come from good gameplay. On top of that a hard counter (one that cannot be overcome) is bad unless you can actively change your loadout. If you can't change your loadout and someone has hardcountered equipment you were counting on for your build then you'll only be frustated for the entire game. This encourages people to drop games or suicide run, because if you can't be effective you might as well give up.

Shevchen, on 26 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Well, well. The whole idea is nice in some ways, but the solutions are not (in my view)...
I call it again: Adapt or die!

I don't mean to be offensive, but I literally don't understand where you're going with this response.

Gremlich Johns, on 26 December 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

The original creators and writers of the BT fiction really had no idea how an ECM suite is supposed to operate. All frequencies all the time is not how things work.

I think having ECM generate lots of heat in its current configuration could work, but I'm not confident of that, and it could just go horribly wrong. This is my idea of how you would accomplish balance without trying to hard to make ECM make sense (because it really doesn't make any at all in battletech).

EmGooser, on 26 December 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

1. LRMs and SSRMs are not broken from ECM. Tag now reaches out to 750m and if you have a proper scout you can LRM to your hearts content. In fact just this weekend I had at least 5 games were I was about 1000 dmg with a 4 lrm15 stalker because I had 2 of my buddies running tag. God forbid you work together.

Ugh, I really hate this. It kind've works, but really this is just a bad band-aid that doesn't address the fundamental issues with both ECM and LRM and Artemis.

EmGooser, on 26 December 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

2. In 8 mans you can still be just fine without ECM. If your team wants to run all mediums and out maneuver your enemy you still can and I have seen many 8 mans win with this.

You didn't read my original post. Feel free to skim it until you find where I directly address this claim and then respond to that.

EmGooser, on 26 December 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

3. Before ECM the streak cats were just crushing anything in the med or light category but now they are few and far between. However, if you have a buddy doing counter you can still run them. Yes you have a risk of being over disrupted but it is a deadly build with a deadly counter so I don't see a problem here.

No, they weren't. Granted, I think streak cats were a bit too good, but any heavier mech and any mech with more range and more speed would eventually beat them. What was bad was that if you were lighter and slower you were dead and could do nothing about it. But that was bad because there was no counter play.

EmGooser, on 26 December 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

4. LRMs are NOT dumb fire, they never have and never should be. Every mechwarrior game in the past always had them tracking in some way. All the tag effects, Artemis, and other effects are also just fine as is because they just make the missiles track better.

They are in tabletop, and every mechwarrior game with online play has been very poorly balanced. That isn't just my opinion that is, and has always been, the opinion of the community at large.

EmGooser, on 26 December 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

ECM make this game a lot more complex and I love the change.

No it doesn't. ECM making the game more complex would look like ECM adding some sort of counter play. If you choose to equip ECM then you are allowed to interact with that aspect of the game play, but otherwise you are only affected by it, you cannot interact with it. This is a HUGE problem, and is boring/frustrating for anyone not running ECM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Shevchen, on 26 December 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

If you do not have LOS, you already need a spotter. TAG is just something to increase your lock-on capabilities. Either you spot and don't have TAG or don't want to use it, because you could be spotted then, you kill the whole idea of spotting. TAG is a bonus, not a primary element.

Also, LRMs are not OP. Use AMS and hide if possibe. Every weapon got its prupose, advantage and disadvantage. If I face an LRM boat, which is standing alone, I just close the hell in and tear it apart on close range.

I think that LRMs pre-ECM were OP not because they were supremely powerful (I rolled many pre-mades that had 4 or more LRM-boats in them while I was in a much smaller pre-made back before the size limit) but because the gameplay required was lazy and consistently results in the boats doing substantially more damage than any other player on the team.

The most fun I ever had playing as a scout was in a commando with tag where I would designate tagged shots for an artemis boat. Granted, we killed everyone in 2 volleys so it was incredibly OP (this was during the second worst configuration of artemis) but it was really fun to have such a cool reward for really tight communication and teamwork. I think LRMs should have that sort of reward, but as is it doesn't really exist.