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Battlemech 19: Orion


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#661 Faithsfall

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 11:13 PM

View PostAnjian, on 09 September 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:


That's good. To have a heavy mech that is small for a change. Harder to hit. Rather than have medium mechs the size of heavies.


Trust me the orion isn't hard to hit and the ct goes down quick.

Someone posted in one of the threads that they thought there might be an armour bug with the orion, either that or the ct is a little too big, but something feels not quite right with the mech.

#662 JohnnyWayne

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:24 AM

Yeah either that or the side torsos have to be fixed (bigger part of the CT).

#663 strygalldwir

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:20 PM

View Postlsp, on 05 September 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

You people are crazy, spending 30 bucks on a single mech that doesn't actually exist. What a joke, this game has done nothing but progressively get worse since closed beta. Went from a promised true mechwarrior game to mech assault with ridiculous real money prices. The games lost all creditablity, no one's even talking about this anymore.

Apparently you are

#664 John MatriX82

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:33 AM

Meh this thing is all CT, like the kintaro in the first instance. I won't master them as I avoided kintaroes even post-fix. Meh.

#665 Snowcrow

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:38 AM

I was thinking about getting an orion, but after reading this thread and how it's all center torso, I'm gonna pass.
Two mechs in a row now..
Hope they fix it like they did with the kintaro.

Edited by Snowcrow, 18 September 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#666 Waking One

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:41 AM

It's not, people are really **** at twisting.

#667 JohnnyWayne

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:48 AM

View PostWaking One, on 18 September 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

It's not, people are really **** at twisting.


No.

#668 Igorius

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:50 AM

Honestly, I've noticed the CT issue mentioned by others around here, too. I can't put my finger on it precisely, but something with the hit registration feels off. Similar to how the Awesome felt when it first dropped, though not to that extreme (haven't piloted a Kintaro myself, so I don't have it as a frame of reference).

#669 John MatriX82

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 10:54 AM

View PostWaking One, on 18 September 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

It's not, people are really **** at twisting.


It's not about twisting. It's that when you twist in an Atlas you've Huge arms with 60-68 points of armor protecting your sides like the shield of an Hoplite, the Orion can't, especially if you twist your left side to cover the ballistic torso and you're using the "so safe" xl engine.

Not only, but this is basically a 25 tons lighter Atlas, that shares the same issues of very low-firing guns; you need to expose more than half of the mech to even think to unleash your fire, but you know, you don't have the same armor of an Atlas; furthermore if you want to go AC 20 you're stuck on rather low-rated engines that bring your speed too close to 300-310 Stalkers and 325 Highlanders. With arm-capable AC 20 (or dual UAC5) Victors 9B or 9S and Highlander 733C, the Orion goes nowhere imho.

A Cataphract from the competitive pov is several times better and even the Victor is, the latter shares the same low-firing armed troubles but at least you have JJs to compensate. Nope I'll basic my VA just in case in future I have to resume the chassis, but as soon as it will be basic I'll gladly sell it of as I did with the single Kintaro variant I've tried. There's really no hassle in mastering either of two, this always under my point of view.

So given that the next month we'll have the outstanding Locust, I truly hope November's Shadow Hawk won't share the underwhelming fate of the latest mechs.

#670 Hastur Azargo

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:21 PM

Well, here it is, the long awaited Orion, and I feel like writing a couple of words about it, since it's been so anticipated for several long months.

Ironically, the "poor man's Atlas" turned out to be plagued by poor man's problems. It's nobody's fault, of course; it's just an unfortunate combination of several factors that makes this mech suffer. These include:
  • ballistic slots in side torso;
  • too few ballistic slots;
  • humanoid form;
  • missile slots in arms;
  • bulky composition;

Let's take a closer look;

So, ballistic slots in side torso, why is this bad? Well, first, your torso restricts your firing arc, so in terms of aiming flexibility torso ballistics are at a severe disadvantage compared to ballistics in hands. Second, their positioning is fairly low, well below the cockpit, and that makes it very easy to soil shots without knowing prior to shooting if you will soil them or not. Third, it means space limitations, since XL engine and large ballistics become mutually exclusive. All of this is not so much of a problem on a tall and well armored Atlas, but it is a problem for a stumpy Orion, and it's getting worse when you realize that you have...

Too few ballistic slots. Of 5 Orion variants, only 2 (one of which is the hero Protector) have 2 ballistic hardpoints. The rest have just one. This aggravates the problem number 1 with another simple fact: there isn't much you can do with just one ballistic slot in a side-torso. An AC20 is a viable option, but it means a standard engine, and while you can put an AC20 and a standard engine and still have enough tonnage to buy a house on it in case of an Atlas, repeating that with Orion will leave you with a loadout that looks more like something you'd see on a Blackjack (plus BJ would give you jumpjets and some respectable speed).
Gauss is even less of an option, since the new Gauss mechanics make it really crave for a flexibility of an arm mount, not to mention that if you want to carry something aside from that Gauss, you're gonna want an XL engine, and an explosive Gauss rifle in the same side torso with an XL engine means you're gonna be very very easy to kill. The rest of ballistics are just too weak when single. AC10s are fun in pairs but a single one won't cut much and will be pretty useless for its weight. Same is true for LB-10X. An AC5 will be even more useless, although pairs of AC5 are gonna be the salvation of the Protector and ON1-V, thanks to their dual hardpoints. I won't even mention a single AC2. Or the machinegun. Yeah, go ahead and slap a machinegun into that ballistic h-point. That's gonna be fun.

Well, then, why is a humanoid form bad? Easy. Humanoid form means brawling. It means dealing damage while taking damage, because your weapons aren't placed optimally for firing over obstacles, unlike Jagers and Cats. Humanoid form is ok on an Alpha Male mech like Victor, which enjoys a convenient placement of hardpoints coupled with jumpjets, which are crucial for your survival in a direct engagement with other mechs. But with lackluster ballistics and without jumpjets, humanoid form simply means you're not gonna be able to deal damage without taking a lot of it in return.

Missile slots in arms is a secondary problem, but it is a problem. First, it misleads you into believing that you can just put SRMs in there and go have fun. Problem is: if you managed to get your Orion into a range where you can actually use your SRM hands, then either you're gonna die very soon, or your team is winning anyway. A jumpjetless 75-tonner has neither speed nor maneuverability to effectively deliver SRMs. Not to mention that losing an arm on such a mech means losing a whole lot of firepower, and Orions have bulky and too-easy-to-blow-off arms...

Finally, Orion's bulky composition is the icing on the cake of its downfall. Unlike many of its more slender brethren, Orion is just too easy to shoot. It's just a straightforward block with legs and hands, and your enemy will never get confused trying to figure out which part of your Orion to target. They'll just shoot center of mass, which is easy to train onto because of its straightforward geometry, and soon you're gonna feel that maybe your CT is too big or something. No, trust me. It's very unlikely that PGI is at fault for your Orion being squishy. It's just that it can't fight from behind cover, and it's too easy to put shells and beams into when it's exposed.

Also, you could probably count among pluses the Orion's ability to mount large engines, and therefore be fast, but speed is a bit of a double edged-sword when it comes to really heavy mechs, mostly because of decceleration. Going at 90~ish KPH in a 75-tonner is sure fun, but you better know really well where you're going, because if you happen in someone's field of fire at that speed, the time it will take you to reverse your course will be ample for your enemy to severely damage or kill you.

These problems are so grave because ballistic hardpoints are supposed to dominate your build. Ballistics are heavy and highly efficient weapons, and having them being so restricted by hardpoints effectively kills your options. Add to that a brawler's physique, lack of JJs, large arms and an easy to perceive and target appearance, and you get a mech that looks promising in mechlab, but will underperform when clashing with reality of accurately simulated combat environment of MWO (as opposed to a fairly abstract environment of tabletop BT).

Resume: if you're a collector, like me, then you're gonna be buying these anyway. And damn, do they look good with custom paintjobs. Both Buccaneer and Phranken look fantastic on them, so much that it's a shame they won't live up to their badass looks in the field. If, on the other hand, you're just looking for a practical mech, then both Cataphracts and Victors will offer you a considerably more comfortable combat experience than Kerensky's unlucky steed. This just ain't the mech you're looking for. Move along... :)

#671 Aylek

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:19 PM

@Azargo

This a hell of an analysis regarding the Orion. As much as I want this thing to work for me, I am still suffering a lot of quick deaths in it. Sadly, surviving a barrage in both a CTF or VTR seems more likely than in the ON1.

Some members of my unit do swear by several different variants including the Protector and do good damage even in brawler-type loadouts, but for me the mech currently only seems to work when loading primarily long range weapons (e.g. LLs, LRMs, AC5s or GR) and using a very careful play style.

On a side note, I am currently using a single AC5 to round out my K's loadout. Carrying 2LL, 2ML, an A-LRM20 and a single AC5 the mech is drafted as a fire support platform. While the LL and LRM20 are the mech's main weapons, the AC5 can either be mixed in or can be used to cool down the mech. However, this is probably just some kind of niche application. Your argument still holds true that in general there are too few ballistic hardpoints on the mech's variants. Even a different placement could be helpful. How beastly could a variant like the V be if those 2 ballistic hardpoints switched place with the arm energy hardpoints?

Edited by Aylek, 18 September 2013 - 11:23 PM.


#672 Hastur Azargo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:40 AM

It could be this beastly... Oh my God, do I dream to see that mech in MWO... ;)

Posted Image

#673 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:41 AM

View PostAzargo, on 18 September 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Well, here it is, the long awaited Orion, and I feel like writing a couple of words about it, since it's been so anticipated for several long months.

Ironically, the "poor man's Atlas" turned out to be plagued by poor man's problems. It's nobody's fault, of course; it's just an unfortunate combination of several factors that makes this mech suffer. These include:
  • ballistic slots in side torso;
  • too few ballistic slots;
  • humanoid form;
  • missile slots in arms;
  • bulky composition;
Let's take a closer look;






So, ballistic slots in side torso, why is this bad? Well, first, your torso restricts your firing arc, so in terms of aiming flexibility torso ballistics are at a severe disadvantage compared to ballistics in hands. Second, their positioning is fairly low, well below the cockpit, and that makes it very easy to soil shots without knowing prior to shooting if you will soil them or not. Third, it means space limitations, since XL engine and large ballistics become mutually exclusive. All of this is not so much of a problem on a tall and well armored Atlas, but it is a problem for a stumpy Orion, and it's getting worse when you realize that you have...

Too few ballistic slots. Of 5 Orion variants, only 2 (one of which is the hero Protector) have 2 ballistic hardpoints. The rest have just one. This aggravates the problem number 1 with another simple fact: there isn't much you can do with just one ballistic slot in a side-torso. An AC20 is a viable option, but it means a standard engine, and while you can put an AC20 and a standard engine and still have enough tonnage to buy a house on it in case of an Atlas, repeating that with Orion will leave you with a loadout that looks more like something you'd see on a Blackjack (plus BJ would give you jumpjets and some respectable speed).
Gauss is even less of an option, since the new Gauss mechanics make it really crave for a flexibility of an arm mount, not to mention that if you want to carry something aside from that Gauss, you're gonna want an XL engine, and an explosive Gauss rifle in the same side torso with an XL engine means you're gonna be very very easy to kill. The rest of ballistics are just too weak when single. AC10s are fun in pairs but a single one won't cut much and will be pretty useless for its weight. Same is true for LB-10X. An AC5 will be even more useless, although pairs of AC5 are gonna be the salvation of the Protector and ON1-V, thanks to their dual hardpoints. I won't even mention a single AC2. Or the machinegun. Yeah, go ahead and slap a machinegun into that ballistic h-point. That's gonna be fun.

Well, then, why is a humanoid form bad? Easy. Humanoid form means brawling. It means dealing damage while taking damage, because your weapons aren't placed optimally for firing over obstacles, unlike Jagers and Cats. Humanoid form is ok on an Alpha Male mech like Victor, which enjoys a convenient placement of hardpoints coupled with jumpjets, which are crucial for your survival in a direct engagement with other mechs. But with lackluster ballistics and without jumpjets, humanoid form simply means you're not gonna be able to deal damage without taking a lot of it in return.

Missile slots in arms is a secondary problem, but it is a problem. First, it misleads you into believing that you can just put SRMs in there and go have fun. Problem is: if you managed to get your Orion into a range where you can actually use your SRM hands, then either you're gonna die very soon, or your team is winning anyway. A jumpjetless 75-tonner has neither speed nor maneuverability to effectively deliver SRMs. Not to mention that losing an arm on such a mech means losing a whole lot of firepower, and Orions have bulky and too-easy-to-blow-off arms...

Finally, Orion's bulky composition is the icing on the cake of its downfall. Unlike many of its more slender brethren, Orion is just too easy to shoot. It's just a straightforward block with legs and hands, and your enemy will never get confused trying to figure out which part of your Orion to target. They'll just shoot center of mass, which is easy to train onto because of its straightforward geometry, and soon you're gonna feel that maybe your CT is too big or something. No, trust me. It's very unlikely that PGI is at fault for your Orion being squishy. It's just that it can't fight from behind cover, and it's too easy to put shells and beams into when it's exposed.

Also, you could probably count among pluses the Orion's ability to mount large engines, and therefore be fast, but speed is a bit of a double edged-sword when it comes to really heavy mechs, mostly because of decceleration. Going at 90~ish KPH in a 75-tonner is sure fun, but you better know really well where you're going, because if you happen in someone's field of fire at that speed, the time it will take you to reverse your course will be ample for your enemy to severely damage or kill you.

These problems are so grave because ballistic hardpoints are supposed to dominate your build. Ballistics are heavy and highly efficient weapons, and having them being so restricted by hardpoints effectively kills your options. Add to that a brawler's physique, lack of JJs, large arms and an easy to perceive and target appearance, and you get a mech that looks promising in mechlab, but will underperform when clashing with reality of accurately simulated combat environment of MWO (as opposed to a fairly abstract environment of tabletop BT).

Resume: if you're a collector, like me, then you're gonna be buying these anyway. And damn, do they look good with custom paintjobs. Both Buccaneer and Phranken look fantastic on them, so much that it's a shame they won't live up to their badass looks in the field. If, on the other hand, you're just looking for a practical mech, then both Cataphracts and Victors will offer you a considerably more comfortable combat experience than Kerensky's unlucky steed. This just ain't the mech you're looking for. Move along... ;)


Wong its a great mech learn to pilot. I have no problem I do 500 damage most match in top spots 3 to 5 kills.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f5f6a443c899c1e
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0f2ca5c7d2d1c04
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0a654a7ef8a7d84
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1c186f7c5325e00

Edited by SirSmokes, 19 September 2013 - 06:41 AM.


#674 Strum Wealh

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostAzargo, on 19 September 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

It could be this beastly... Oh my God, do I dream to see that mech in MWO... :wub:

Posted Image

If your dream 'Mech is the second home-grown 'Mech of the AFFS, perhaps that dragon might become a sword-and-sunburst? :D

#675 MischiefSC

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:51 PM

As a long time Atlas pilot I find the Orion amazing. Without even basics yet I'm at about a 2.0 win/loss in all three variants I'm running and easily a 2.0 KDR, on my V I'm around a 3. That's with pure pugging in them and again, not even all basics on all variants yet.

It's a brawler and a stunning AC20 platform, the best in game IMO. Good mobility and flexibility, just don't use an XL. The side torsos get plenty of damage if you're pivoting at all and an AC20 runs awesome for that. If you're used to an atlas with LLs and an AC20 so you know how to deliver an explosion of damage, pivot, BOOM, pivot, it's a stone cold b*tch for brawling.

XLs just aren't a good idea for a brawler. One advantage of the Orion is that the hardpoints are well spaced - I can lose a torso and still have around 1/2 my damage dealing potential. Don't get suckered into the XL with the dream of that little extra bit of DPS; you're better off with surviving the match than squeezing an extra 50 damage out of a match that you died half way through. Better for your team as well.

2xLLs, 2xSRM4, 1x AC20, standard 300. 4xML, 1x AC20, 4xSRM4Artemis works well but SRMs are just not as viable for killing, better as a backup weapon.

The only time to go XL engine is when you're dropping 3xLRM15, 1x LRM10 all with Artemis on it, 1x Tag and 1 LL to spook lights and then a big XL to scoot around in since you're not getting shot as much (ideally).

Brawling in an XL gets you what you deserve and the Orion is a damn fierce brawler.

A+ mech. Sexy looking and delivers the whupass. Better than my 2xAC20 Jag and that's saying something.

#676 Hawkeye12

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:26 AM

anyone know why i cant Unlock speed tweak in my Oni-K ? i have 8800 XP and i click on Speed tweak and nothing shows up to unlock it....


IS THIS A BUG?

#677 J0N3S

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:34 AM

You have to fully basic 3 Variants of the Orion first ....

#678 Nehkrosis

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:41 AM

I dunno guys.

This mech is fairly beastly.

I have been using 2 ER LL and 4 ASRM4s, AMS, Full armour, XL350.
Runs cool, Runs fast, hits hard.
Ultima-Brawler.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3c3e11f67c4dd2

#679 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:13 AM

Until it comes a cross a Jager or Cataphract which'll just core out it's CT and keep trucking.

#680 Nehkrosis

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:15 AM

Well, it that case, you outmaneuver them, and keep pelting them with SRMs.





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