478 replies to this topic

[BlueCorsair]

When I started playing this game I naturally played the "follow the fracking Atlas" rule simply as a matter of trying to survive the match. As I got better, although I would never abandon the team, I started doing my own thing and putting myself in a position that I felt would best help the team win.
After reading this thread a few days ago, I decided to try becoming the Atlas's sidekick in a jagermech set up with 2 ultra AC5's and 4 streak SRMs. Fun as hell. I was able to focus my AC's on whatever he was engaging and take out any harrasing lights with the streaks. Most of the matches I would still have most of my armor and the Atlas and I would together rack up rediculous amounts of kills.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Most of the time, when i play i take a support role. engaging only when my team does and watching out for other mechs and when i see a mech taking fire i try to absorb some of the damage so we can fight on. Im a team player ill say that outright and it works for me on all levels

[Alaskan Nobody]

I have a miserable confession:

I have been failing to Follow the Fracking Atlas.....

And it has been showing in my score.

[Void Angel]

Bless you, my son. Say three Hail Comstars, and read a canon sourcebook once through, and you shall be forgiven.

Seriously, though, I find the current meta is making it hard to find an actual Atlas to support. Many of the Atlases I see are using LRMs these days, to the detriment of their other armaments. LRMs aren't bad for an Atlas, but you've only got 10 tubes! Regardless, my point is that many Atlas drivers have felt so punished by the current dakka-sniper meta that they've rather stopped behaving like Atlases.

On the other hand, when you DO get close to people with a good Atlas brawling setup, the seem so surprised.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Void Angel, on 25 January 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

On the other hand, when you DO get close to people with a good Atlas brawling setup, the seem so surprised.

Yeah, I broke my record for total damage in a match with the BH.
Old record was just over 700 from the Firebrand (Rifleman layout)
New Record is 749! (those medPulse may be HOT, but they focus damage VERY well)

[Void Angel]

I've broken a thousand with a Battlemaster - I think the 900s are the most I've managed with a D-DC. I don't really track it, though, so I could be mixing it up.

[Alaskan Nobody]

I don't usually track either - but I died quick that match - was expecting ~100 for my total.
Must have set off somebody's ammo bins or the like.

[Void Angel]

Heheh.

[Just wanna play]

yeah, if you can fit in a good weapon set-up into an atlas, one thats not to hot, but still has some nasty burst damage, you have a MONSTER mech, soooo much armor, an atlas with all the ct armor on the font can take 3 6 ppc stalker alphas to the chest (plus a medium laser) and still survive, and i mean what other assault mech can mount a double barrel shotgun?


if only they gave the atlas k 3 ballistic hard points, put 3 ac/5s in there 0_0 then maybe remove one of the ct energy hard points, gotta stay balanced


it also has decent torso twist AND arms (unlike the stalker...) such a lovely mech

Edited by Just wanna play, 26 January 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[Void Angel]

It's unfortunate that the Atlas is so difficult to play in the current metagame environment. It can take a licking and keep on kicking - but between punch-alpha jump snipers and their dakka friends (plus the odd Gauss Jaeger,) you often take significant damage before being able to effectively fight. Until a more permanent solution to the pinpoint-dakka meta comes along, I fear the Atlas will continue to be at a disadvantage in most competitive team comps.

[Eglar]

Void Angel, on 26 January 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

It's unfortunate that the Atlas is so difficult to play in the current metagame environment. It can take a licking and keep on kicking - but between punch-alpha jump snipers and their dakka friends (plus the odd Gauss Jaeger,) you often take significant damage before being able to effectively fight. Until a more permanent solution to the pinpoint-dakka meta comes along, I fear the Atlas will continue to be at a disadvantage in most competitive team comps.

The Atlas is despite the meta-game still a solid Mech. A min-maxed atlas for instance wouldn't be what many would see as the metamech, but doesn't run with 2x LBX-10s or anything that's "just bad". One could argue on the Streaks but with the SRMs hit detection issues and LRMs not viable, I'll just opt for streaks.

The atlas can not dish out as much damage as certain other builds but it is a great mech to close the range-gap while under fire. With decent torso twisting you can easily put away 3-4 alphas or you can spamm your ACs to lower the enemy's accuracy.

It's certainly also not the tankiest mech in mid-range despite it's Armour, simply because the Highlander can jump and by doing so distribute damage onto it's legs.

The DDC however is the best "lead the charge" mech for the reasons you named:
- Huge profile
- ECM Cover
- Draws attention (mostly because people don't want to bother aiming for smaller target if they have a big slow one in front of them)

[Void Angel]

I'd disagree with you on being less tanky. A Highlander can spread some damage to its legs by jumping, but not against a brawler that's paying attention, except against certain 'mechs at close range. My Atlas, on the other hand, is routinely destroyed only once I have lost all of my torso armor segments and one -if not both- of my side torsos. I could wish its arms spread damage a bit better, but it's still an incredibly tough 'mech if you torso twist well and focus on absorbing damage. I still do a lot of damage, but if I'm getting focus fired, that damage is to targets of opportunity while I survive so my teammates can focus fire on the people killing me.

Similarly, SRMs (and the LB-X) depend on how much you're hurt by the hit registration. Anecdotal testimony suggests that it's related to your network stability somehow, similarly to how some people didn't get the benefit of the "lag shields" with the old HSR. I use both SRMS and LB-X on my Atlas to devastating effect; the LB-10Xs soften targets of opportunity and shakes people up at medium range. At around 300m on a large target, you start putting the great majority of damage on your intended component, and double-stacked LB-Xs really are effective.

Streaks have the same hit detection issues as SRMs, for most people - which is why your damage done tends to increase when you start chain firing them (hit reg seems to not like lots of hits happening at once.) Against large, slow targets, SRMs are actually very effective for their tonnage against Heavies and other Assaults, despite their spread damage. I use them to good effect, but your mileage may differ, because hit registration. =)

Edited by Void Angel, 26 January 2014 - 08:24 PM.

[Eglar]

I am sorry without going too deep into the metagame, I still have to disagree alot.
Some of the following here is my personal perception and some are just facts:

Void Angel, on 26 January 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Similarly, SRMs (and the LB-X) depend on how much you're hurt by the hit registration. Anecdotal testimony suggests that it's related to your network stability somehow, similarly to how some people didn't get the benefit of the "lag shields" with the old HSR. I use both SRMS and LB-X on my Atlas to devastating effect; the LB-10Xs soften targets of opportunity and shakes people up at medium range. At around 300m on a large target, you start putting the great majority of damage on your intended component, and double-stacked LB-Xs really are effective.

I have to disagree with the LB-X, in my opinion the Burst Damage of 20 (even when fired from point blank) spread over 3-6 components does not justify the kind of tonnage invested which would make the LB-X a mechs main weaponry. The hit registration of SRMs are much worse than LBX (this might be my personal perception) however a similar burst damage with SRM 12 while only investing not even half the tonnage, slots and with a better spread especially with artemis is worth considering.

Void Angel, on 26 January 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Streaks have the same hit detection issues as SRMs, for most people

Streaks guarantee a hit unless blocked by environment obstacle, because AFAIK once fired it's flying route is purely server-side calculated - if the server wants to make them hit, they hit. Chain-fire is only to annoy people with incoming missiles warning and cockpit shake.

[Void Angel]

Well, the thing is, it's an Atlas; unless you're running a ~350+ engine, you're usually going to run out of space (or heat capacity, which is related) before you run out of tonnage. And as I said, most times at close range, most of your shot hits the intended torso. At ~200m knife range, all of it will routinely hit the intended torso on large targets - and you've got a rate of fire the better part of twice as fast as the AC/20. So you can still twist and turn to spread incoming damage, but your effective pinpoint damage output is very high - enough to compensate you for the extra (7) tons at close range over the much slower and less versatile AC/20.

At long range, the LB-10X stack is certainly inferior to other autocannons; you hold your fire and use cover/concealment, unless you want to harass. At medium ranges, however, you can use the LB-10X to distract and disorient enemies, and to engage targets of opportunity. Dakka-mechs and snipers hate being shot - that's not part of the plan. If you shoot at them, very often sniper/dakka types will retreat, shift targets to fire back, or both (this works during the brawl as well.) This distracts them from focusing more advantageous targets - your own dakkas, for example - and allows you to disrupt their activities and expand your battlefield presence. In essence, the LB-10X stack is good for mid-range, excellent for short-range, and wholly inadequate at longer distances: it's a dedicated brawling setup, but it is strong in that role.

As for streaks, you're slightly off on two points: First, you're not accounting for hit registration errors. Hit reg seems to hate having to deal with multiple simultaneous (or near-simultaneous) impacts. If I group fire all four Streaks from my Locust, I typically end up with less damage than with chain fire, even when I've shot through all my ammunition. It also bears mentioning that the game actually determines the flight path, not the hit, so in addition to obstacles, misses can be caused by the target outrunning the missile (it's not like WoW or LoL, where projectiles launched within range can bend around corners or follow the target beyond the maximum distance.)

The second thing is that chain fire does more than simply annoy people. Screen shake causes objects to blur as well, making it legitimately difficult to identify and engage specific components, or the target itself. It's true that it doesn't your point of aim (i.e. you'll still hit where you were aiming before the shake hit,) but that only matters if you're not fighting a moving target. It's not a magic shield of invincibility, but it has a notable effect on return fire.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 January 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Wintersdark]

The real problem with the LBX build is that it's grossly misleading. It's not a bad build per say, but it's also not a spectacularly good build. If used correctly, it's devastating, but it requires skill to use correctly and a team that supports you correctly. Against skilled opponents, the LBX Atlas is easy meat: Just stay >270M away and it's relatively harmless; LBX pellets spraying all over your mech, ineffective SRM's, and torso twisting can spread the laser damage. Even if you stray within SRM range, they spread damage too and their effectiveness is quite random due to the hitreg issues. It's total inability to pinpoint significant damage outside of knife-fight range is a substantial liability.

It just seems like a much better build than it is because it generates huge damage numbers, and many people in their ignorance equate damage done with performance.

With that said, if you're going to Follow the Fracking Atlas, it's a good build to stick with. If you've got long range, you can support it by suppressing mechs trying to take it apart at range, and buy it time to close. Once it gets close, it tends to just smash things like nobodies business, delivering massive bursts of damage, and then it relies on allies to take the surgical role and actually kill things it's smashing in good time.

[Darth Futuza]

Please don't follow the fracking atlas, it makes my job as a sneaky light easier to wipe the floor with him.

[Void Angel]

Heh. I have seen SO many Atlas drivers flail uselessly at lights... I really don't understand it. You can tie me up and force me to pay attention to you, but unless I'm already closely engaged and can't back out, you will run, or you will die. You can come back and make me yell at my lights and mediums to come murder you to death, but you're not going to beat me one on one.

Many Atlas pilots, though... It's like watching a drunken rhinoceros try to swat flies.

[1453 R]

It's one of the things I have to work the hardest at when I'm playing something like my Thunderbolts, or most anything with LRMs. Ignoring the ankle-biters and focusing on something you can hit, hard, is absolutely infuriating to someone like me who cannot stand taking fire, but it will also pretty much always yield better results than trying to maneuver your ponderous self around in order to go after the squirrel. Even if the squirrel ends up taking you down - and if you've positioned right, odds are someone will chase him off you before that happens - you'll do a lot more damage focusing on something you can see and hit than wasting time, effort, and ammunition engaging a light 'Mech in its element. You may lose, but your team stands a better chance of winning, and winning the match is always the best vengeance.

[Void Angel]

Wintersdark, on 27 January 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

The real problem with the LBX build is that it's grossly misleading. It's not a bad build per say, but it's also not a spectacularly good build. If used correctly, it's devastating, but it requires skill to use correctly and a team that supports you correctly. Against skilled opponents, the LBX Atlas is easy meat: Just stay >270M away and it's relatively harmless; LBX pellets spraying all over your mech, ineffective SRM's, and torso twisting can spread the laser damage. Even if you stray within SRM range, they spread damage too and their effectiveness is quite random due to the hitreg issues. It's total inability to pinpoint significant damage outside of knife-fight range is a substantial liability.

It just seems like a much better build than it is because it generates huge damage numbers, and many people in their ignorance equate damage done with performance.

With that said, if you're going to Follow the Fracking Atlas, it's a good build to stick with. If you've got long range, you can support it by suppressing mechs trying to take it apart at range, and buy it time to close. Once it gets close, it tends to just smash things like nobodies business, delivering massive bursts of damage, and then it relies on allies to take the surgical role and actually kill things it's smashing in good time.

See, that's the thing. Everyone and his Clanner uncle is in that "surgical role" these days. In fact, They're usually opening or weakening enemies long before I get there. And once I get to around 300m, I can get significant portions of my damage onto their 'mechs. Yes, I'm not going to get all of my 20 points of damage onto my target component - but I'm still doing considerable damage to it. (spoiler added for brevity and excessive mathness)

Spoiler

Compared to my options in that torso, I can: use a Gauss Rifle (snicker); stack UACs; use an AC/20; stack LB-Xs. The UACs preclude torso twisting, and jam for tactical eternity; this leaves us with the LB-X stack or the AC/20 for a dedicated brawling build. Both are good brawling weapons, but the AC/20's dps is "only" 5.0 - compared to 8.0 for the LB-X stack. That means that I need to have a little over 62% of my shotgun damage placed on that torso in order to equal the pinpoint dps of the AC/20 - and I have a lot more flexibility because of my faster rate of fire.

An AC/20 setup will have to either use large lasers or a bigger engine - the later case costs firepower, and the former sacrifices heat efficiency for range. Neither is an a priori bad decision - but I have not yet found a stronger close-in brawler - from a team play standpoint - than the double-stacked LB-10X Atlas D-DC.

I have to admit that I'm just a tiny bit insulted by your assumption that I don't understand damage inflation. In fact, I'm quite familiar with the concept, and had several debates with people in the immediate aftermath of LRMageddon - before the partial un-nerf that restored LRMs to some semblance of usability. I was explaining to people that while their damage numbers might look ok to them ("I do 300-400 damage in a match, LRMs are fine!") the spread of their damage made those numbers less valuable than an equal amount of damage from pinpoint weapons... stop me when this starts to sound familiar to you. The difference is that while LRMs spread over their target uniformly, LB-10X spread scales positively with range. At the close ranges at which these builds are designed to fight, the spread isn't as important as at longer ranges - if I pull down a 600-800 damage match with 3-5 kills, I'm still dealing most of my damage to the torso of my choice. In short, I don't just randomly spray pellets at the enemy so that my poptarts can kill them - I kill people in my own right, and I can do it solo.

Critics of the build also tend to overstate the range issue. You're going to have to backpedal at least 57.9 kph to "just stay away from me" without exposing your rear torsos, and I can still place a fair portion of my shotgun damage on your torso at medium ranges. This kind of argument presupposes an unrealistic vacuum and bad conditions. Of course if I'm lumbering at you over open ground all by myself, you're going to make a fool of me. That's why I'm not going to do that. I know that I'm not going to succeed by just running at you (slowly, oh so slowly) over open terrain, and of course I need my team to support me - but if they're all sniping, I don't engage. I can't - I'll just get killed while my team cowers and tries to take potshots. So I wait out the first couple minutes of the fight while my team gets liquored up behind their rock of choice and then try to get an advance going. Typically one set of camper scouts will be feeling frolicsome and pushing toward the enemy - and that's where I'll be. It's annoying, but it works, if your camper scouts don't fold like a teetotaler at a drinking contest... just like any other match.

It's still hit-and miss, because of the effect that the ppc/dakka meta has on players - it sucks the spine right out of a player when they feel like they'll be punished every time they step out from behind a rock. But that's a problem that's going to haunt any heavy brawler until (I believe) jump sniping is fixed, and maybe autocannons get nerfed down into sanity.

[Wintersdark]

I didn't say the build was bad, just that it was misleading and tended to encourage poor play. And what I absolutely did not do as well is say you misunderstood how to use it or how damage spread worked. Nothing personal was said or intended.

I was just discussing how the build can work, but only when used correctly... But for your average player, they can be using it incorrectly but believe they are using it well due to high damage numbers. After all, this thread is not discussing how you personally should/do use something but as a teaching tool for newer players, correct?

Holding back and not engaging at longer range is key (as you said), but it's oh-so-tempting to just stride out and lay into foes at long range with the LBX's willy nilly. If you do, players notice you and stay back, greatly reducing the effectiveness of your weapons but hiding that under your oh so shiny damage numbers.

Anyways, yeah. No slight was intended to you whatsoever. The post was more a PSA for players looking at the build, to understand that it's easy to use it poorly without realizing they were doing so. I wanted to ensure players using the build thought more about how they used it, and other players Following That Particular Fracking Atlas better understood how it needs to fight.