478 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

I kind of feel like this should be said. Dire wolfs YOU should be following the atlas as well, you may have his armor and far more weapons, but THAT is why you should be second line. I feel who is the front liner should be based on who is heaviest first, and who has the least weapons for their size 2nd. They will take more time to destroy less weapons if they attack an atlas vs if they attack a dire wolf. Dire wolf stay in 2nd line, your essentially a stalker, a weapons platform. You have the hit boxes and toro twist of fire support. You want the enemy to deplete your teams fire power as slowly as possible

[Void Angel]

I was away at annual training when the Clans were released, up till today - so I haven't really had a chance to evaluate the Clantech's balance. However, your point is correctly taken, even if it's a bit outside of the scope of the guide. The Clan Omnimechs have a different ratio of firepower to tonnage, but targeting priority should always be based on your evaluation of the toughness/firepower of the enemy 'Mech. A heavy, or lower-tonnage Assault like the Battlemaster/Stalker, will be carrying more firepower for its toughness than your typical Banshee or Atlas brawler. This means that if you have a choice between targeting an Atlas, a Dire Wolf, or a Timber Wolf, you should nearly always choose the Timber Wolf. It's all about how much damage you can prevent over the course of a battle through target selection.

Remember, though, that while I use the Atlas as an example 'Mech (because it was the biggest when the guide was written, and makes a great tag line,) I'm not specifically talking about that 'Mech - instead, I'm advocating a series of principles which will allow any players who adopt them to better cooperate with their team in the absence of voice communication.

[Void Angel]

Edit: formatting

[Talsha]

Also do not stand in front of the fracking Atlas, Banshee or whatever assault...
People are firing down their line for a good reason and its likely that they wont stop firing just for you.

[Void Angel]

There's got to be some give and take there; Atlases in particular have very wide arms, and it is seriously possible for an Atlas driver to shoot you when he literally cannot see you - because you're blocking his arms. from the side. On the other hand, it's the firing 'Mech's responsibility to let up off the trigger when he can see that teammates are in the line of fire; and the moving 'Mech's responsibility to watch where they're walking - and paying attention to what's going on around them (and not just downrange) is everyone's job.

[Enigmos]

Yeah don't stand in front of an assault, but also be careful to avoid firing into his back because he is in your way. The very fact that this has to be said is indicative of the uninsightful self-centeredness of a few.

[Void Angel]

Well, don't be too hard on them; with particularly broad chassis and/or zoom, you can have people in your blind spots that you literally cannot see. I've shot people with my Atlas' arm weapons many times because they were crowding in on me and I couldn't see them until it was too late.

That being said, many people need to be more aware of firing lanes - both those using them, and those crossing them. It's not OK to just refuse to let up on the trigger, but I can sympathize with those who may let a friendly have a few extra joules of laser when that "friendly" rushes in front of them to get a kill. Yet the burden of discretion is normally on the 'mech behind, like with cars - you can see the person in front, but he/she can't see you.

At any rate the takeaway is bot to be careful crossing firing lines, and to not get so focused on playing Thousand Meter Whack-a-Mole that you don't pay attention to the world around you.

[YueFei]

Void Angel, on 07 September 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

Well, don't be too hard on them; with particularly broad chassis and/or zoom, you can have people in your blind spots that you literally cannot see. I've shot people with my Atlas' arm weapons many times because they were crowding in on me and I couldn't see them until it was too late.

That being said, many people need to be more aware of firing lanes - both those using them, and those crossing them. It's not OK to just refuse to let up on the trigger, but I can sympathize with those who may let a friendly have a few extra joules of laser when that "friendly" rushes in front of them to get a kill. Yet the burden of discretion is normally on the 'mech behind, like with cars - you can see the person in front, but he/she can't see you.

At any rate the takeaway is bot to be careful crossing firing lines, and to not get so focused on playing Thousand Meter Whack-a-Mole that you don't pay attention to the world around you.

Also sometimes crap happens. Nobody's perfect. As long as people make an effort and we can all have a good laugh at the occasional accident, it's all good.

I've sometimes had to apologize for walking into a teammate's firing lane and getting shot in the back. And it's nice when the teammate apologizes too, even though I insist it was my own fault that he shot me in the back. It's just a game.

[SaltBeef]

Need to add follow the DINKIN Daishi! I find when running in a light I find them by themselves they may kill me sometimes and on other occasions I kill them! Moral of the story Gents,.. Don't leave your daishi's alone! .

[Void Angel]

If everyone followed the Daishi, you'd have much longer matches...

Seriously, though - while Dire Wolves do need support, they're very slow for the modern battlefield. With heavies that clock in just short of ninety kph, it's very hard for slower 'mechs to keep up. This means that rather than following you, you have to follow the group, and maintain focus on keeping up. Most times, you'll be able to stay with the group through superior piloting, so long as you don't try to go somewhere by yourself.

In other words, you should be supported, but it's hard for the people in front to follow you, exactly - in this instance, the principle applies to you doing your best to keep up, and using your words to call for help if you get caught somewhere. This is true of the Atlas as well, but its superior torso twist and humaniform construction mean that while a light can slow me down, or harass from long range, I've never found one that could take me on once I focused on him.

[muskrat]

I pilot medium/heavy and always stay with the Assualt mech. so he/she is not alone.
I figure we will get to the battle when we get there, but I would prefer loosing my medium
protecting the Atlas in hopes the atlas makes it to the front line

Muskrat

[Steinar Bergstol]

Yep. I've been playing Griffins, Wolverines and Vindicators lately, and sticking with the assault is what I too try to do, at least until the lances have all met up. I know some people feel it's better for the faster mechs to zoom off and try to catch slow enemy stragglers, but that sort of attitude just leads to your own slow stragglers getting taken out by _their_ fast gnats, so for the team it's not really a gain as you lose just as much, even if you get to pad your K/D ratio, which should be completely unimportant and not at all a priority for any pilot.

[SethAbercromby]

Void Angel, on 08 September 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

If everyone followed the Daishi, you'd have much longer matches...

Seriously, though - while Dire Wolves do need support, they're very slow for the modern battlefield. With heavies that clock in just short of ninety kph, it's very hard for slower 'mechs to keep up. This means that rather than following you, you have to follow the group, and maintain focus on keeping up. Most times, you'll be able to stay with the group through superior piloting, so long as you don't try to go somewhere by yourself.

In other words, you should be supported, but it's hard for the people in front to follow you, exactly - in this instance, the principle applies to you doing your best to keep up, and using your words to call for help if you get caught somewhere. This is true of the Atlas as well, but its superior torso twist and humaniform construction mean that while a light can slow me down, or harass from long range, I've never found one that could take me on once I focused on him.

It's very dangerous to justify people abandoning slower 'Mechs, though that's probably not what you're trying to say. Just because you can run short of 90kp/h, that doesn't mean you should do so at all times. I mean, do you see Centurions running away from the pack just because they can run more than 80kp/h? They stick to the pack because that benefits them and their teammates and Timber Wolves should adhere to the same mentality.

If you feel are being left behind in a potential dangerous situation, you should call your teammates out on that, because when you're caught alone in a slow 'Mech, it's already too late.

[Void Angel]

Slower 'mechs certainly shouldn't be "abandoned," but that very term rather begs the question. In nearly all maps, there are key terrain features (e.g. the big hill in Alpine) which need to be taken quickly if possible. Slow 'mechs can be left behind on the way to those objectives, and sometimes should be - particularly if the rest of the team is doing their jobs and keeping an eye out toward the flanks. As my Atlas is one of my favorite chassis, I can attest to the fact that in most cases a slower 'mech can keep close enough to the main body that help can arrive if they do get attacked.

Many times, however, the slow 'mech complaining hasn't done that to the best of their ability. They've taken an inefficient path, or (often) stopped to try and beat on something that shot at them from moderate to long range. Particularly in a Starebear Dire Wolf, you need to keep moving. Twist your torso, use your words, but get up to the main body.

All 'mechs on the team should be supported - that's what teamwork is - but very often the team can't afford to hover around the slow-movers like overprotective relatives around Grandma and her wheelchair. By all means tell the team if you're dangerously behind, or getting flanked/harassed - but with so many 'mechs on the current battlefield sporting very high speeds, a Dire Wolf or similar 'mech may have to trail behind a bit as the team responds to battlefield situations - ironically including the Atlas.

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 09 September 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Slower 'mechs certainly shouldn't be "abandoned," but that very term rather begs the question. In nearly all maps, there are key terrain features (e.g. the big hill in Alpine) which need to be taken quickly if possible. Slow 'mechs can be left behind on the way to those objectives, and sometimes should be - particularly if the rest of the team is doing their jobs and keeping an eye out toward the flanks. As my Atlas is one of my favorite chassis, I can attest to the fact that in most cases a slower 'mech can keep close enough to the main body that help can arrive if they do get attacked.

Many times, however, the slow 'mech complaining hasn't done that to the best of their ability. They've taken an inefficient path, or (often) stopped to try and beat on something that shot at them from moderate to long range. Particularly in a Starebear Dire Wolf, you need to keep moving. Twist your torso, use your words, but get up to the main body.

All 'mechs on the team should be supported - that's what teamwork is - but very often the team can't afford to hover around the slow-movers like overprotective relatives around Grandma and her wheelchair. By all means tell the team if you're dangerously behind, or getting flanked/harassed - but with so many 'mechs on the current battlefield sporting very high speeds, a Dire Wolf or similar 'mech may have to trail behind a bit as the team responds to battlefield situations - ironically including the Atlas.

As a very successful solo Dire Wolf pilot, I can attest to this.

While it can definitely suck to spawn in Charlie on Skirmish-Alpine/Caustic, there are ways to mitigate the danger. First, as you said above, you need to MOVE. That is, push to max throttle in the most efficient path possible to get your slow, heavy ass to where the team will be. Most importantly, no matter what, do not stop, slow, or waver. If you're taking fire, roll the damage as best you can, but do not stop or turn. Returning fire is a trap, and the damage you take running is less than the inevitable death if you turn and fire.

I use that myself when fighting Dire Wolves in that situation - poke them from afar, even if you do virtually no damage, because as soon as they turn to face and return fire, they stop/slow enough to be isolated and murdered with ease. A Direwolf is more than capable of taking care of itself vs. one opponent, but not a lance.

[Void Angel]

As a side note: The best way I've found to be really effective against most Clan builds in PUG matches is to use team tactics to concentrate your fire in bursts - you have to be willing to accept a little damage in order to maneuver and hit them from all sides, or together. Starebears Clanners have to maintain facing in order to use most of their guns, so fighting them means either using high-burst frontloaded weapons; or else forcing them to track your 'mech with a flanking shot, spreading damage - preferably both at once. After the heat increases and beam duration changes recently, if you can get Clanners to fire off a couple of volleys without their getting full effects on you in return, your chances of coming out ahead are much better, provided you can maintain contact.

The positively insane agility of their Heavy chassis makes that difficult, but that's truly another thread.

[Liquid Leopard]

This thread is still here, it's not quite dead, but it seems to me like PUGers' behavior has changed a lot in the last year.

For a while there, it seemed like PUGs would actually gather around their Atlas, or whatever was the heaviest mech on their team.
Now, if the assault mechs spawn in a bad spot, or if the enemy scouts find them, the teams attitude is more like "F U for bringing an Atlas."

If my team was using my Atlas for a meatshield, at least they'd probably shoot at the enemy while they were at it.
Now, it's much more likely I'll just be on my own when some troll is dancing around behind me in a light mech.

[Void Angel]

Yes, I've been thinking about revamping it, but I'm not sure quite how to go about it. A big part of the problem is the Clans. Clan Battlemechs are overall incredibly mobile: sure, their Lights are slower, as is the Starebear Dire Wolf, but their Mediums are very fast - and their Heavies are insane. Because of this mobility, teams can easily lose key terrain if they don't get to it fast, which leads to Assault pilots having a bad time. Combined with the incredible firepower now available to a few light chassis, this means that aggressive lights in PUG matches can be a nightmare, particularly for amateur assault pilots.

Assault pilot skill is also a continuing part of the problem, though outside the main scope of the thread. Many Assault pilots simply do not know how to play their chassis. As the title suggests, I've spent a lot of time in an Atlas cockpit; I've also spent a lot of time driving Lights, Mediums, and Heavies. Sadly, Assault pilots I see often do not know how to build their 'mechs, cannot fight on the move, and are largely helpless when confronted with a skilled Light pilot. Many, many times when I see Assaults get caught out, it's because they stopped moving. You may recall my favorite piece of MWO black humor: "How do you engage the reverse gear on an Assault 'Mech? Shoot it with a Medium Laser." Pilots drive cripplingly slow builds, pick inefficient or insufficiently covered routes of march, stop when fired upon, and are then outfought by 'mechs a third to a quarter of their size. Certainly this is not always the case, - and it is not intended to be a suggested cause of your particular issues - but I always have to wonder.

I don't have many problems fighting lights; a swarm is a problem, and it sucks when it happens, but generally while a single Light can make me stop and pay attention to them, they can't outfight me. If they remain in combat with me they will die, unless they're sniping from long range, in which case I just keep moving and use cover. I similarly don't have significant issues getting to the team - they key is to get into motion and stay in motion. Very rarely I do get badly behind, but I can nearly always see the enemy coming and do something about it. A coordinated Firestarter Train is bad news to anyone - they can deal so much damage, and guarantee that at least one of them is behind you, that they wreck peoples' day in short order. But other than pointing out that the chassis still needs further nerfs, there's not much you can do about that, and it seldom happens in PuG matches.

Many times, people try to build their Assaults too slow, to squeeze in missiles, ammo, or guns. Dire Wolves have a reason - they haven't got a choice - but I die a little inside whenever I see a 48kph Atlas on the modern battlefield. My current brawling Atlas build goes over 60kph, and I consider anything below ~57kph to be dangerously slow (and 57kph is pushing it.) Yet even with my 48kph "I Ran Out Of Money Just Then" King Crab leveling build, I do not often get caught, because I fight on the move and keep moving - and talk to my team. Bad weapons loadouts are another issue, with some players mounting PPCs in lowslung hardpoints, or selecting weapons loadouts that cannot be sustained due to heat - some missile boats refuse to mount TAG or even token close-range arms, thinking that it's their team's job to lock targets and defend them. Combine bad loadouts with poor torso twisting and overland travel speed, and the only thing that will save this pilot from a Light is a teammate that hears his terrified, mewling sobs and comes to help out.

The best team-based preventative, I think, for Assault Abandonment Syndrome is Lights that dotheirfrackingjobs instead of hanging back behind the other 'mechs or insisting on sniping in silence. The only thing that hates being shot more than an Assault is a Light 'mech; if you confront that aggressive Light lance with the prospect of fighting your Assaults and your own Light screen, they'll often go do something else. Then you can proceed to the rendezvous without ceding those key terrain features to the enemy. This requires Lights (and fast Mediums) that make full use of their capabilities and pay attention to doingtheirfrackingjobs - not always a solid proposition in random matches.

On the individual side, players need to bring AMS (nearly everyone should.) and plan on needing ~60kph just in order to get across kill zones without being pounded. Efficient routes of march and good communication are also key, as is having at least a token weapon set that can easily engage lights. Perhaps most importantly, Assault pilots who are unfamiliar with Lights need to pilot lights and try to fight Assaults in them - it helps a lot to understand the fight from the other end.

However, as you can see, this subject veers deeply into "How to Build an Assault 'Mech," a topic outside the scope of this thread. Within the thread, the more I think about it, the more I really do want to revamp the thread to fit current game mechanics better, but I'll need to put some thought into it before I do. Thanks for the continued interest, by the way!

PS: While I realize that a few people may have very little disposable income available for such things as gaming hardware (I actually am one of them,) the benefit of just buying a $15 set of headphones is well worth the cost in online games in general, as well as in MWO. Being able to talk to your team is a priceless tactical asset, so if you can at all afford it, buy a headset. You'll get mileage out of it in more games than MWO, and you'll be glad you did.

[Liquid Leopard]

I'm pretty much an Atlas nOoB, but regardless of what I'm driving I've come to this conclusion:
The biggest murder ball wins. The team that scatters and doesn't work together is going to feed themselves into the PUG zapper in ones and twos.

Also, I've concluded that the Atlas isn't made for cresting a hill to advance on the enemy. With all those waist-high weapons, it's made to come around a corner and surprise some poor schmuck. I finally thought of that after 2 years of spectating from Atlases that were shooting the ground in front of them, and then a few months of doing it myself. Having realized that, it's often frustrating to look for spot where there's a corner I can use AND the enemy is in the right spot.

Last time my Atlas blew up, it had to do with 4 enemy mechs coming around a corner, led by a King Crab.
Soon, I was spectating and realized my team was scattered all over Tourmaline Desert, while at least half the enemy team was moving together and focusing fire.

The time before that, I went around a corner with 2 Banshees backing me up.
"Hey, they followed the Atlas! We're off to a good start!"
They had followed me in my ECM bubble for several minutes, and I thought we were going to kick some @$$ together. Once my Atlas blew up, I saw two enemy mediums humping me from behind. Where were the teammates that had my back a minute earlier? Well, one Banshee had skived off, completely. The other must have blown up about the same time as me.

[Void Angel]

Liquid Leopard, on 11 April 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Also, I've concluded that the Atlas isn't made for cresting a hill to advance on the enemy. With all those waist-high weapons, it's made to come around a corner and surprise some poor schmuck. I finally thought of that after 2 years of spectating from Atlases that were shooting the ground in front of them, and then a few months of doing it myself. Having realized that, it's often frustrating to look for spot where there's a corner I can use AND the enemy is in the right spot.

Heh. You have come to a conclusion from experience that some Atlas drivers will actively argue against even when it is fracking pointed out to them. Well done. As for the Incredible Vanishing Teammates, well... brawling is an art form. It always has been, and it especially is these days. The key is - and this is a difficult skill in the heat of combat - to look at your map before you engage to see if your teammates are scattered all over creation. Similarly, with the Banshees of Ironic Doom, they might have been worried that the rest of your team was absent and been reluctant to engage. Often pilots will follow your ECM, but because they're doing so out of a defensive mindset (they hate missiles and having to use cover) they will simply poke and peek when you go around the corner. Then when you die in a hail of gunfire, their timidity seems validated to them (consciously or not,) and they interpret your death as the result of too much aggression - which it might have been; hard to say having not been there.

The best thing you can do for that kind of thing is twofold: first, get a mic and talk, respectfully, to your team. This can be as hard to do over voice coms as it is in team chat, but courtesy must be maintained, or your anger will distract and annoy your teammates, making them even dumber^* and increasing your chances of a loss. The second thing to do is watch your map and cooperate with the team no matter what. If they're scattered all along the watchtowers trying to randomly snipe the enemy to death, try to gather them up - but if they won't come, go to them and play bodyguard until you get a close-range opportunity. You're far too slow to be anything but patient when you're waiting for the right time to engage - if you run into a superior force in the open, you simply cannot escape without taking significant damage, if you survive at all. Something a buddy taught me playing WoW back in The Day: if the puggles are dead set on doing something, help them do it - even if it's stupid. If you tell them no, they'll just stamp their foot like a little kid and play even worse for being mad at you - but if you teach them to at least do the sub-optimal thing right, you'll have a leg up on the enemy puggles who are just as stubborn and wrong.

_*: I'm not joking; multiple studies have confirmed that angry people make poorer decisions - the brain shifts away from higher reasoning and toward "HIT WITH ROCK!" This means that if you chew out your teammates, you help lose the game, regardless of your own performance - even if you were right.

Edited by Void Angel, 12 April 2015 - 07:32 PM.