16 replies to this topic

[Shadowsword8]

This is something I've been musing about for some time now.

There are currently several things that are unbalanced:

- Light mechs with lag-shields: Even with decent aim, they'll absorb more firepower before dying than an assaut mech. A net-code issue, and we have PGI's promise that it will get better with optimisations and, eventually, the return of collisions. But we have absolutely no guarantee that it will be enough better to be signifiant, and collisions seem far, far away in PGI's planning.

- 8v8 seem to be the realm of ravens and D-Dc atlases.

- TAG is, supposedly, the counter of ECM. But it's a joke. TAG require you to aim precisely at a target for a few seconds, and keep it that way for as long as you want to use it, Which mean it grab your full attention. You won't use cover, or fire at other targets, or look at your radar, and so on. On the other hand, ECM is a passive, area of effect offensive/disruptive effect that leave you completely free to do something else, and affect to some extend several targets at the same time.



In general terms, when designing a game, you make sure that the counter of an effect is easier to use (with either smaller fitting constraints, or less activity required from the player) than said effect. This is one of the rules that prevent one effect from dominating the gameplay, and warrant diversity. When one effect can be countered with a smaller sacrifice, you'll have a natural balance reached between the situation where the effect isn't used at all, and the situation where it is a must-have.

Yet PGI added with ECM an effect that is much more...practical... than it's counter. That's a mistake, imho, and the consequence is that ECM superiority is half the win, and is heavily over-used in 8v8 premades. The balance has tipped almost completely on the "must-have" side.




Well, the ECM vs TAG issue is interesting by itself, but what I propose is both simpler, and more ambitious.


If you remove ECM from light (at least until lag-shield is fixed) and assault mechs, and add it instead to medium and heavy mechs like hunchbacks or catapults, the game will benefit greatly. It will remove some of the light's current unnatural toughness, bring back some interest in 8v8, and ECM will be a bit less less rampant and decisive, since the mechs mounting it will be easier to kill,

[ReD3y3]

ECM is fine.

If you can see your targets without a big red box on them and dont rely on SSRMs ro LRMs that is.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

ReD3y3, on 20 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

ECM is fine.

lol ah hahahahaha
keep saying that you might even believe it eventually

[ReD3y3]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

lol ah hahahahaha
keep saying that you might even believe it eventually

I do believe it. And it is true. And PGI knows it so they arent adjusting it.
Get with the program Buddah.

[PapaKilo]

Haxburch, on 20 December 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

...

lol

Let me repeat that for clarity: LOL!

Light 'Mechs an "I WIN" button? C'mon, you can't be serious with this.

I kill plenty of light 'Mechs. My light 'Mechs die plenty of times.

Before ECM, I ran Jenners almost exclusively. Much fun ensued. Killed with it, died in it -- more of the former than the latter.

I tried the Commando with ECM. Had fun for a while. Sold it. I tried the Raven with ECM. Had fun for a while. Put it back in its bay for occasional use.

Now I'm back to my Jenners. Still having fun killing and getting killed -- more of the former than the latter.

ECM has forced me to become better at aiming standard SRMs. Thanks, ECM!

I run eight-mans and four-mans with my mercenary unit, eight-mans and four-mans with random peeps on the NGNG TS3 server, and I even go total PUG with no comms quite a bit of the time. Having lots of fun steamrolling, getting steamrolled, and even occasionally having one of those awesome knock-down drag-out fights where the margin of victory is only one or two 'Mechs. Do I kill more often than I get killed? Yes. But my Jenner is nowhere near an "I WIN" button.

Edited by Stickjock, 20 December 2012 - 01:28 PM.
removed deleted content

[Shadowsword8]

ReD3y3, on 20 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

ECM is fine.

If you can see your targets without a big red box on them and dont rely on SSRMs ro LRMs that is.

I find your reasoning... or lack of it, since you didn't present any... rather inconvincing.

Have you even bothered to read the post past the title?

[MaddMaxx]

Shadowsword8, on 20 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

I find your reasoning... or lack of it, since you didn't present any... rather unconvincing.

Have you even bothered to read the post past the title?

Please do not take this the wrong way good sir, but if Buddah "Likes" your post, reading it will simply prove to be a waste of time.

Require proof. He liked Post #2 as well. Need more be said?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 20 December 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[ReD3y3]

Shadowsword8, on 20 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

I find your reasoning... or lack of it, since you didn't present any... rather inconvincing.

Have you even bothered to read the post past the title?

I have put reasoing into the subject. It is just in the other 7 million threads that have been posted.

Oh and I quit reading at

"8v8 seem to be the realm of ravens and D-Dc atlases"

Because I assumed you never played 8v8

Edited by ReD3y3, 20 December 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

ReD3y3, on 20 December 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

ECM is fine.

False. Right now ECM is a horrid combination of Stealth Armor & Angel Guardian ECM suit, with none of the debilitating drawbacks or huge tonnage requirement of either. ECM is far from fine, but it isn't the God Mode many people are making it out to be.

However, when paired with the crap current netcode, then it does become a huge problem. On top of that, other equpiment such as NARCs or BAP are also quite useless, due to lack of doing Canon properties and overall, well shittiness.


Hopefully PGI does realize this huge imbalance and will fix the problems within due time.

[ReD3y3]

mwhighlander, on 20 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

False. Right now ECM is a horrid combination of Stealth Armor & Angel Guardian ECM suit, with none of the debilitating drawbacks or huge tonnage requirement of either. ECM is far from fine, but it isn't the God Mode many people are making it out to be.

However, when paired with the crap current netcode, then it does become a huge problem. On top of that, other equpiment such as NARCs or BAP are also quite useless, due to lack of doing Canon properties and overall, well shittiness.


Hopefully PGI does realize this huge imbalance and will fix the problems within due time.

I am dissapoint in you Mr. Highlander. How does ECM affect 3D Jump sniping ?

BTW I stole your build and am very sad I had to rework it now that 4 JJs are required. 2PPC 1 Gauss just doesnt hit the same as 2 Gauss 1 ERPPC.

See you in 8s.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

ReD3y3, on 20 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I am dissapoint in you Mr. Highlander. How does ECM affect 3D Jump sniping ?

BTW I stole your build and am very sad I had to rework it now that 4 JJs are required. 2PPC 1 Gauss just doesnt hit the same as 2 Gauss 1 ERPPC.

See you in 8s.

Change happens, none of my builds are permanent, and reflect the many states of the game. Hell, does anyone run around in 9small laser Fastbacks anymore? Game balance will continue to change radically and so will the users builds.

Prediction: When DFA is implemented, people will hoping on other mechs like goombas and people will long forget that people ran around with ECM ravens left and right.


But anyway, I'm more concerned right now with the general effectiveness of weapons, mechs and equipment based on Canon descriptions, purposes and past game effectiveness and usefulness. Compared to all of that, ECM is way out of whack and does need adjustment.

[ReD3y3]

Netcode fix and collisions back in the game will make most people cry ALOT less about ECM.

I think those issues are far and away more of a problem then ECM.

Ever had a light dance through your WHOLE team to delay a base cap without worrying about being knocked down?

Rememer when you had to actually pilot your mech to dodge running into an Atlas's legs. No worries just ghost right threw them now.

Collisions and Netcode are the real culprit to OPs problem. ECM is the scapegoat.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

ECM Ravens is a compound issue. You're absolutely right in that two issues, lack of collision and bad netcode contribute, but an out of balance ECM does add to it as well. When all 3 issues blend together, we get the frustration of what many players have now. Before, players could cope with Jenners (despite lack of collision and bad netcode) with SSRMs. That's not to say that streaks are at all perfectly polished weapons, but still gave many players who's aim wasn't spectacular a tool to combat them.

With ECM being introduced to instantly shutdown missile locks many players who either struggle with fast movers or those not fortunate enough to have a very good quality internet connection are now almost entirely helpless to combat those pilots who do take ECM in a light. My solution is good aim and high alphas, but incredible aim and luck shouldn't be the solution to combat a light mech. In past games and TT, basic ECM has never had the ability to straight up stop LRM lock-ons and streaks. That is a property of Stealth Armor and Angel Guardian ECM suits. But there is another side of the problem many people don't address. The complete ineffectiveness of NARC and BAP. But the state of other equipment is for another thread another time.

But I digress, I've contributed my thoughts on the subject and just hope PGI realizes the complexity of the issue and have a a plan to solve it. Last I remember PGI did want to start implementing in at least part of the new netcode in late January.

[Haxburch]

Shadowsword8, on 20 December 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

This is something I've been musing about for some time now.

There are currently several things that are unbalanced:

- Light mechs with lag-shields: Even with decent aim, they'll absorb more firepower before dying than an assaut mech. A net-code issue, and we have PGI's promise that it will get better with optimisations and, eventually, the return of collisions. But we have absolutely no guarantee that it will be enough better to be signifiant, and collisions seem far, far away in PGI's planning.

- 8v8 seem to be the realm of ravens and D-Dc atlases.

- TAG is, supposedly, the counter of ECM. But it's a joke. TAG require you to aim precisely at a target for a few seconds, and keep it that way for as long as you want to use it, Which mean it grab your full attention. You won't use cover, or fire at other targets, or look at your radar, and so on. On the other hand, ECM is a passive, area of effect offensive/disruptive effect that leave you completely free to do something else, and affect to some extend several targets at the same time.



In general terms, when designing a game, you make sure that the counter of an effect is easier to use (with either smaller fitting constraints, or less activity required from the player) than said effect. This is one of the rules that prevent one effect from dominating the gameplay, and warrant diversity. When one effect can be countered with a smaller sacrifice, you'll have a natural balance reached between the situation where the effect isn't used at all, and the situation where it is a must-have.

Yet PGI added with ECM an effect that is much more...practical... than it's counter. That's a mistake, imho, and the consequence is that ECM superiority is half the win, and is heavily over-used in 8v8 premades. The balance has tipped almost completely on the "must-have" side.




Well, the ECM vs TAG issue is interesting by itself, but what I propose is both simpler, and more ambitious.


If you remove ECM from light (at least until lag-shield is fixed) and assault mechs, and add it instead to medium and heavy mechs like hunchbacks or catapults, the game will benefit greatly. It will remove some of the light's current unnatural toughness, bring back some interest in 8v8, and ECM will be a bit less less rampant and decisive, since the mechs mounting it will be easier to kill,

Imortal lagshield runners are the reason, i will never pay any cash to this game . Evry other thing i dont care beside this i win button **** called ligth mech .

Sooner or later i will leave game anyway if this not getting fixed and i am bored to death.

PapaKilo, on 20 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

lol

Let me repeat that for clarity: LOL!

Light 'Mechs an "I WIN" button? C'mon, you can't be serious with this.

I kill plenty of light 'Mechs. My light 'Mechs die plenty of times.

Before ECM, I ran Jenners almost exclusively. Much fun ensued. Killed with it, died in it -- more of the former than the latter.

I tried the Commando with ECM. Had fun for a while. Sold it. I tried the Raven with ECM. Had fun for a while. Put it back in its bay for occasional use.

Now I'm back to my Jenners. Still having fun killing and getting killed -- more of the former than the latter.

ECM has forced me to become better at aiming standard SRMs. Thanks, ECM!

I run eight-mans and four-mans with my mercenary unit, eight-mans and four-mans with random peeps on the NGNG TS3 server, and I even go total PUG with no comms quite a bit of the time. Having lots of fun steamrolling, getting steamrolled, and even occasionally having one of those awesome knock-down drag-out fights where the margin of victory is only one or two 'Mechs. Do I kill more often than I get killed? Yes. But my Jenner is nowhere near an "I WIN" button.

I just read , blablabla i am a ligth mech lag hero an its fine . I dont want it changed and lagshield doesnt exist and ligths are fine . We also dont need collsion, netcode and hitdetection fixed because i like my i win button .

Just go away and *** , thx !

Edited by Haxburch, 20 December 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I do believe it. And it is true. And PGI knows it so they arent adjusting it.

Right that's why every poll on the subject to date has indicated that the majority of players think ECM is not balanced. You and PGI dont even have a clue if you think ECM is remotely okay the way it is.

[Shadowsword8]

There's a few options to rebalance ECM.

- They could increase their weight/slots, or even give them a heat generation, in order to force the player wanting it to give up something important in return. This need to compromise would reduce the amount of ECM used.

- They could create another ECM module, working only on counter mode, but that you could put on every mech.

- They could boost an existing module (TAG, NARC or something) with a temporary ECM suppression role. For exemple, if you get hit by a TAG, your ECM will be inactive for 15 seconds.

- Or they could simply nerf ECM itself, like removing the area of effect and make if disrupt only the locked mech.

[TB Freelancer]

While I'm not a fan of the implementation of ECM, 3/4 of the other complaints are on the dev roadmap and will go a long way to alleviating the problem.