80 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 December 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

youd think theyd fix that given thats the thing keeping us from 2.0 dhs from what theyve said


Goldsinks? Wanna explain that? An you got a link to that thread?
I hate being out of likes. Stupid daily like limit

Goldsinks refers to the golden ammo in WoT, which MWO draws heavily from for most of its features. So the joke is, they don't want to give us good heatsinks now, because they plan to release premium only 'gold' heatsinks later.

[Trauglodyte]

Soy, on 20 December 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

If you think a LL is as efficient for light swatting as a LPL, I don't really know what to say.

Again, the roles are pretty much there already. We're talking about slight tweaks to heat, not dramatic changes to roles/utility. Derp?

Ultimately, though, we have a problem with roles. Ranged weapons, aside from LRMs, aren't really needed for ranged. Currently, we're playing a ranged game (duh) in what amounts to a sandbox. When you're in a sand box, it limits the power and beneficial disparity between ranged weapons. Here:

Md Laser (1 ton, 1 crit): 5 dmg, 4 ht, 270 max eff range, 540 extreme range
Md Pulse Laser (2 tons, 1 crit): 6 dmg, 5 ht, 180 max eff range, 360 extreme range
Lrg Laser (5 tons, 2 crits): 9 dmg, 7 ht, 450 max eff range, 900 extreme range
ER Lrg Laser (5 tons, 2 crits): 9 dmg, 10 ht, 675 max eff range, 1350 extreme range
Lrg Pulse Laser (7 tons, 2 crits): 10 dmg, 9 ht, 300 max eff range, 600 extreme range
PPC (7 tons, 3 crits): 10 dmg, 9 ht, 540 max eff range, 980 extreme range
ER PPC (7 tons, 3 crits): 10 dmg, 13 ht, 810 max eff range, 1620 extreme range

Now, if you break it into damage per heat times distance, you get the following:

Md Laser: 337.5
Md Pulse Laser: 216
Lrg Laser: 578.6
ER Lrg Laser: 607.5
Lrg Pulse Laser: 333.3
PPC: 500 (adjusted for the 90m min range)
ER PPC: 623.1

As you can see, the Lrg Pulse Laser is actually barely as efficient as the Md Laser and it weighs 7x as much. And, when you're comparing the Lrg Laser vs ER Lrg Laser, the ER version is only 5% more beneficial. The PPC actually loses out to the Lrg Laser due to the short range impact and the slight diff in overall ranges. And, while I'm a HUGE fan of the ER PPC, it is again only a smidge better than the Lrg Laser.

The kicker is that the above analysis doesn't take weight into account (I should have but that makes the math so much cumbersome) and the PPC/ERPPC, as I said major loves of mine, have a projectile delay which, even at 2000m/s, is ineffective hitting fast moving targets at close range while beam weapons are not hindered by that. Another bonus to the laser.

SO, if you want to talk niche/roles for weapons, you can kind of go ahead and forgo that as the Lrg Laser reigns supreme over the others.



PS> The dmg per heat per ton x range makes me cry when I bring the Md Laser into it. YIKES!

Edited by Trauglodyte, 20 December 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Zyllos]

Garth Erlam, on 20 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

Ok, thats fine!

But couldn't you lower the RoF of weapons (by like 50%) and make DHS 1.6 for inside/outside the engine along with making all heatsinks give capacity 1.0?

It seems like to me that would balance trial mechs a TON and make DHS balanced across all mechs.

Edited by Zyllos, 20 December 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Soy]

Trauglodyte, on 20 December 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Ultimately, though, we have a problem with roles. Ranged weapons, aside from LRMs, aren't really needed for ranged. Currently, we're playing a ranged game (duh) in what amounts to a sandbox. When you're in a sand box, it limits the power and beneficial disparity between ranged weapons. Here:

Md Laser (1 ton, 1 crit): 5 dmg, 4 ht, 270 max eff range, 540 extreme range
Md Pulse Laser (2 tons, 1 crit): 6 dmg, 5 ht, 180 max eff range, 360 extreme range
Lrg Laser (5 tons, 2 crits): 9 dmg, 7 ht, 450 max eff range, 900 extreme range
ER Lrg Laser (5 tons, 2 crits): 9 dmg, 10 ht, 675 max eff range, 1350 extreme range
PPC (7 tons, 3 crits): 10 dmg, 9 ht, 540 max eff range, 980 extreme range
ER PPC (7 tons, 3 crits): 10 dmg, 13 ht, 810 max eff range, 1620 extreme range
Lrg Pulse Laser

I agree to a large degree with your first sentence. The rest of it I mostly disagree with because I don't understand the point you're getting at, you can snipe with things besides LRMs efficiently man...

VRain - your notion of true double "golden" heatsinks makes me shed a manly mechwarrior tear, entirely plausible and scary scenario... hope nothing like that happens.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Soy, on 20 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I agree to a large degree with your first sentence. The rest of it I mostly disagree with because I don't understand the point you're getting at, you can snipe with things besides LRMs efficiently man...

VRain - your notion of true double "golden" heatsinks makes me shed a manly mechwarrior tear, entirely plausible and scary scenario... hope nothing like that happens.

indeed
kinda shed one of those whenever I think what theyre gonna do to clan equipment after the forum qq they fear so starts up once the general pubbies realize that clan tech aint fair

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 20 December 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Soy, on 20 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I agree to a large degree with your first sentence. The rest of it I mostly disagree with because I don't understand the point you're getting at, you can snipe with things besides LRMs efficiently man...

VRain - your notion of true double "golden" heatsinks makes me shed a manly mechwarrior tear, entirely plausible and scary scenario... hope nothing like that happens.

My bad - I was doing computations while I was watching "Elementary". Awesome show, btw

[Soy]

Trauglodyte, on 20 December 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

As you can see, the Lrg Pulse Laser is actually barely as efficient as the Md Laser and it weighs 7x as much. And, when you're comparing the Lrg Laser vs ER Lrg Laser, the ER version is only 5% more beneficial. The PPC actually loses out to the Lrg Laser due to the short range impact and the slight diff in overall ranges. And, while I'm a HUGE fan of the ER PPC, it is again only a smidge better than the Lrg Laser.

The kicker is that the above analysis doesn't take weight into account (I should have but that makes the math so much cumbersome) and the PPC/ERPPC, as I said major loves of mine, have a projectile delay which, even at 2000m/s, is ineffective hitting fast moving targets at close range while beam weapons are not hindered by that. Another bonus to the laser.

SO, if you want to talk niche/roles for weapons, you can kind of go ahead and forgo that as the Lrg Laser reigns supreme over the others.



PS> The dmg per heat per ton x range makes me cry when I bring the Md Laser into it. YIKES!

You talk about numbers and stuff in this edited post, so I'll quote and retort to this section...

Ok, regarding the "efficiency" of ML vs LPL. You talk about numbers and thats how you come to your conclusion about the efficiency. In reality, there are situations in given mechs and certain game scenarios where a LPL would be much more efficient than a ML. This is how the game works, man. You give some examples, here is one. Take a heavy/assault mech with 1 hard point and a bunch of extra weight, with a weakness countering lights. A LPL is going to be much more efficient at dealing damage quickly and accurately when compared to a ML... Regarding ERs, yeah I tend to agree, the current heat levels make it difficult to justify the range extension... I like PPCs a lot but shy away from them because they are reduced to only supression/sniping which isn't very worth such a weight/focus in the brawl heavy meta atm, and ER PPCs just run too hot atm to accept their brawl utility.

Edited by Soy, 20 December 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Soy, on 20 December 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

You talk about numbers and stuff in this edited post, so I'll quote and retort to this section...

Ok, regarding the "efficiency" of ML vs LPL. You talk about numbers and thats how you come to your conclusion about the efficiency. In reality, there are situations in given mechs and certain game scenarios where a LPL would be much more efficient than a ML. This is how the game works, man. You give some examples, here is one. Take a heavy/assault mech with 1 hard point and a bunch of extra weight, with a weakness countering lights. A LPL is going to be much more efficient at dealing damage quickly and accurately when compared to a ML... Regarding ERs, yeah I tend to agree, the current heat levels make it difficult to justify the range extension... I like PPCs a lot but shy away from them because they are reduced to only supression/sniping which isn't very worth such a weight/focus in the brawl heavy meta atm, and ER PPCs just run too hot atm to accept their brawl utility.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making any sort of hard analysis here. This is all in the confines of a vacuum. IF you have the weight and the room to hold the weapon within the limits of the hard points, then you should go with the better weapon. I'm just pointing out that part of the problem, as stated before, is that some of the problems aren't so much with the larger weapons but more to do with the efficiency of the lighter weapons.

[Soy]

Word up.

[Dudeman3k]

Hahahahahaha, I'm glad they FINALLY noticed that... despite us tell and bitching and moaning about it since forever ago..... comes to show they dont actually listen to the "beta testers"

[Trauglodyte]

Btw, someone refresh my memory (was going to write something else but then I couldn't remember my facts right - no need to make myself look dumberer) - Pulse Lasers and Standard Lasers fire their damage over the coures of 0.75s for both types, right?

[Soy]

http://mwowiki.org/w...ategory:Weapons

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Dudeman3k, on 20 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Hahahahahaha, I'm glad they FINALLY noticed that... despite us tell and bitching and moaning about it since forever ago..... comes to show they dont actually listen to the "beta testers"

surprised?

[Buckminster]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 December 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Well yeah why are they sticking so hard core with TT in NEEDING a min range on these when there are plenty of areas theyve broken out of the TT shell when it came right down to it?

Or why are they sticking so hard core to the minimum range of a PPC when they eliminated it from the gauss?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Buckminster, on 20 December 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Or why are they sticking so hard core to the minimum range of a PPC when they eliminated it from the gauss?

good question. like I said, when TT/canon is inconvenient they drop it like its hot only to stubbornly stick to it elsewhere for mo reason

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

er

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 20 December 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[shabowie]

Roknari, on 20 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Let the professionals test them internally first.

Guy's got jokes!

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

shabowie, on 20 December 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Guy's got jokes!

ya like true dhs lol
beta test lol

[FrostPaw]

Pugastrius, on 20 December 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

First, now that it sounds like you've settled on some numbers, can you distribute them so that we can tell you how wrong you are before we've even tried it..

Fixed it for you.....

[Boogie Man]

I would like to see a damage nerf and heat increase on small and medium lasers myself and then real 2.0 heat sinks.

Also FIX MACHINE GUN DAMAGE!