47 replies to this topic

[Dirus Nigh]

Streaks as they are now dont really reflect how they would work in TT, along with the in universe mechanics, They are also way to easy to use. Lock on hold fire button down to spam missiles.

As Strum Wealh mentioned the whole point of streaks is ammunition conservation. The streak system it's self has a built in targeting computer to better calculate a firing solution with the mech's main computer. If a shot is bad it will safe the weapon and not fire.

In that light this is my proposal.

A streak system would have to have a modification on the lock on system. Instead of a lock on for an LRM the streaks would calculate a firing solution. The "lock on" signal would be when the streaks have a predetermaned probability to hit.

The game will calculate the flight path of the missiles. Factors such as speed of firing mech, speed of target, angle off attack, distance, and flight time of missiles are counted. If the missiles have a high percentage of hitting the target the streak gives the pilot a signal. The pilot fires. The pilot could hold the trigger down and the missiles would fire when the system has a high chance of hitting. I thinking an 85% chance or better is a good starting point.

Some things would have to change in order for this to work. Missile spread for streaks needs be very tight. Maybe some thing like an LB shot round but tighter. There would be a chance for some or all missiles to actually miss. The target might drop off a ledge while the missiles are in flight. The target could also make a sharp turn causing some missiles to miss, or duck behind cover.

The problem with the streaks is that the pilot does not have to aim the weapon at all. With this type of system, or some thing similar, the pilot still has to actually aim the weapon. It also makes it important wear the steak is located on the mech. An arm mounted streak would be more agile making it easier to aim while having the vulnerability of being in a limb. A torso mounted streak would have the stability and durability of a torso weapon, while being limited to the torsos range of motion.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 21 December 2012 - 05:33 PM.

[Codejack]

Dirus Nigh, on 21 December 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

The problem with the streaks is that the pilot does not have to aim the weapon at all.

Stop it! Just stop it!

This is simply untrue; getting a lock-on to a close, fast-moving mech is HARDER than hitting it with a direct-fire weapon (assuming the gods of netlag are being kind); larger mechs can't turn as fast as lights can run, so you have to balance torso twist with turning speed to keep them in the reticule AND hope that they don't teleport out of the box.

The only advantage streaks have over other weapons was the ability to track close-moving targets, and most of them are now immune unless you have your own ECM to counter it.

[Dirus Nigh]

Dude Ive used streak weapons sense August. Once you have lock all you need to do is hold down the trigger until the target is dead, you over heat, or you run out of ammo. If my arm ring strays from the target it keeps lock for several seconds. Thus allowing me to drag my arm ring over the target very briefly in order to maintain lock. The same if the target brakes LOS, all I have to do is fallow around the corner with in a hand full of seconds and brush my arm ring over the target to maintain lock. This is just stupidly easy.

Keep in mind that my torso mounted streaks are facing away from the target at a 90 degree angles and my missiles fly strait to it. Again all I have to do is keep my arm ring generally close to the target to maintain lock. Im sorry if that is so hard for you to do.

Your histaria also indicates that you did not understand my post. there is not lock on to get or maintain. When the system sees a high probability of the missiles hitting the target it gives a signal. Think of it this way. In order for an SRM to hit a laterally moving target you have to lead the target. The cross hairs will give a signal when you have them in the right lead distance.

Edit.
I used a streak cat for two days in closed beta. it was so easy to use. I felt like I was almost cheating.

Ive ripped mechs part using a jenner with two streaks. I hunted down jenners and other mechs in a commando with three streaks. I have fended off and won brawls with both raven X variants with one streak. All of this before ECM was in the game.

Sense ECM came in the commando and raven became almost immune to streaks except on mechs that had ECM to counter mine.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 21 December 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Codejack]

Dirus Nigh, on 21 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Dude Ive used streak weapons sense August. Once you have lock all you need to do is hold down the trigger until the target is dead, you over heat, or you run out of ammo. If my arm ring strays from the target it keeps lock for several seconds.

Then it works differently for you than for everyone else in the game! No, you get about 1 second outside of the ring before you lose lock.

Dirus Nigh, on 21 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Thus allowing me to drag my arm ring over the target very briefly in order to maintain lock. The same if the target brakes LOS, all I have to do is fallow around the corner with in a hand full of seconds and brush my arm ring over the target to maintain lock. This is just stupidly easy.
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.
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Ive ripped mechs part using a jenner with two streaks. I hunted down jenners and other mechs in a commando with three streaks. I have fended off and won brawls with both raven X variants with one streak.

OK, yea, guess what? They are much easier to use in light mechs. SO WHY ARE THEY THE ONLY ONES STILL ALLOWED TO USE THEM WITH IMPUNITY?!

Dirus Nigh, on 21 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

All of this before ECM was in the game.

Sense ECM came in the commando and raven became almost immune to streaks except on mechs that had ECM to counter mine.

AAAAGHHHHH!


The problem here is ECM, NOT STREAKS!

[Dirus Nigh]

Oh no hyperbolic rage response in all caps. Really you are not giving any considered arguments just ranting.

The problem with streaks is that when they have a lock it is very easy hold that lock. The weapon also auto hits no matter what the angle the weapon is firing at. If my torso or arm mounted streak is at a 90* angle or more and I have lock my missiles will still fire and fly strait to the target. This should not happen. There needs to be a difficulty in aiming the weapon.

Think of what it would be like if a laser did the same thing as a streak. I get a target lock as with a missile and hold down the trigger. That laser would auto hit the target every time it fires regardless of the positioning of each mech. This this was how lasers worked in MWO there would be outrage.

The problem is in how the streaks work. Its not noticeable when using just one streak launcher. When you start adding them the effect compounds itself. When using streaks against light two streak systems are a sure kill. 3 streaks are the tipping point in showing how brutal the streak system is on balance. It is 15 points of damage every time the streak cycles. That damage is hitting the torso the vast majority of the time.

ECM are a separate issue exept when it over laps with streaks. This over lap really makes the issues with these to devices stand out. ECM is being used as a direct counter to a weapon system. This should not be. Having a devise that renders a weapon totally useless should not be in the game. Just as much as having a weapon system that needs a counter that renders it totally useless in order to balance it is a bad design. To me it proves that both devises have a problem. ECM should effect how a weapon is used, increasing the time it takes an LRM system to lock on is ok. ECM effects the weapon but it does not make it useless under this condition. When ECM is used with streaks is when it is out of control ECM makes your weapon system useless yet I can use my auto hit and damage weapon system with out consequence. I guess this where your "IMPUNITY" rage comment comes in.

Another poster had the argument that streaks canonically are not effected by ECM. If streaks worked in a manner closer to the source material then streaks not being effected ,or taking away the aim guidance aspect with the ability to dumb fire them, as not a problem. However because of how streaks work right now ECM is the only counter to it. This should not be this way. Good piloting and tactics should be the counter to a weapon system, not a devise that renders them useless.

Lag is the main mechanical reason people have trouble hitting lights. The devs are working on the servers and coding to reduce this as best they can. More importantly they want to put servers in other locations on the planet. Europe, and western pacific for example. When players in those areas are using servers as close to them as the current ones are to me the lag issue will be greatly reduced. That is a point in the topics of streaks. People are arguing that the streaks not be made to function in a balanced capacity with other weapons but to make up for the handicap of lag.

In some cases it's the only weapon a player can use because they are just bad. It is a crutch. It is so easy to use that a player will cling to it. This reduces their ability to learn how to use other weapons more effectively.

[Codejack]

Dirus Nigh, on 22 December 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

In some cases it's the only weapon a player can use because they are just bad. It is a crutch. It is so easy to use that a player will cling to it. This reduces their ability to learn how to use other weapons more effectively.

Nonsense! They are underpowered, short-range, hard-to-acquire-lock (in anything that can carry more than 3 of them, anyway), and are worse in terms of weight, ammunition requirements, and augmentation (no Artemis, BAP doesn't help, TAG does nothing for them, etc).

They have exactly one use: Killing small, fast mechs that are hard to hit with anything else.

Oh, and thank you for completely ignoring all of my arguments and reiterating your talking points that have been thoroughly debunked.

How about this: If STREAKS are such a problem for YOU, why don't YOU go find a different game?

[Aurien Titus]

If you want to talk about bringing streaks inline with TT, then we need to talk about the lock mechanic. The launcher doesn't achieve lock, the missiles do. And after every shot the freshly loaded missiles must acquire lock. So lock, fire, lock, fire for a single streak launcher. Not lock, fire, fire, fire, fire.

[Codejack]

Aurien Titus, on 22 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

If you want to talk about bringing streaks inline with TT, then we need to talk about the lock mechanic. The launcher doesn't achieve lock, the missiles do. And after every shot the freshly loaded missiles must acquire lock. So lock, fire, lock, fire for a single streak launcher. Not lock, fire, fire, fire, fire.

Well, that's close enough to what they do now; if you lose lock between shots, you have to reacquire it before you can shoot, and lock-on time is shorter than recycle time, so... maybe that would work if ECM only extended the lock-on time instead of preventing it at all, so it would basically slow down both initial lock and recycle time.

A different approach would be to require lock-on/recycle after each individual launch, so you couldn't chain-fire anymore; you have to fire them all or wait to reacquire lock.

[Alistair Winter]

SSRMs are over powered. Anyone who has played with me will tell you I'm not very good at this game. Today, I was playing for hours, getting roughly 0,5 kills per match. Then I switch to my Raven with 2 SSRM2's and I get 4 kills in my first match and 3 kills (almost 4) in my next match. And no, I wasn't just sniping light mechs. Put me alone against a heavy or assault mechs and I'll get the job done, unless they also have SSRMs. Especially Stalkers, those are begging to get taken down by light mechs with SSRMs.

Don't tell me it's hard to use the SSRM. If even I can dominate the battlefield with this weapon, then something is very wrong.

I agree that this weapon should require a new missile lock after each time it's fired. It would still be a great weapon, really.

[Codejack]

Alistair Winter, on 22 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

SSRMs are over powered. Anyone who has played with me will tell you I'm not very good at this game. Today, I was playing for hours, getting roughly 0,5 kills per match. Then I switch to my Raven with 2 SSRM2's and I get 4 kills in my first match and 3 kills (almost 4) in my next match. And no, I wasn't just sniping light mechs. Put me alone against a heavy or assault mechs and I'll get the job done, unless they also have SSRMs. Especially Stalkers, those are begging to get taken down by light mechs with SSRMs.

Don't tell me it's hard to use the SSRM. If even I can dominate the battlefield with this weapon, then something is very wrong.

I agree that this weapon should require a new missile lock after each time it's fired. It would still be a great weapon, really.

You were in an ECM mech! They couldn't use streaks against you! The one weapon that is actually good against light mechs!

The problem isn't streaks, it's ECM.

P.S. If you think that's bad, try a Commando with 3xSSRM2. That's what I run

Edited by Codejack, 22 December 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

@Codejack: Your argument would be valid if all, or even most, of my opponents were carrying SSRMS, or if my ECM wasn't countered by the enemy. However, I'm still getting kills against mechs without SSRMs, because the damage of my SSRMs is much higher than their lasers and other weapons, and also getting kills when my ECM is countered, because it's still hard to hit a Raven going 100 kph in circles.

The SSRM is the best weapon against light mechs, it's true. But it's also a great weapon against mediums, heavies and assault mechs. Because it's overpowered.

[Codejack]

Alistair Winter, on 22 December 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

I'm still getting kills against mechs without SSRMs, because the damage of my SSRMs is much higher than their lasers and other weapons,

I raise my eyebrow at you, sir.

[Alistair Winter]

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

I raise my eyebrow at you, sir.

i guess I wasn't being clear. My DPS is higher, because I'm hitting with practically 100% of my shots, whereas it's quite difficult for other mechs to bring their weapons to bear on a fast light mech. Lasers should be a good weapon against lights, but even then you have to take into account that arm mounted and torso mounted weapons won't be aligned all the time. Not to mention mechs armed with ACs, PPCs or gauss rifles - on their own, they're virtually defenseless against lights unless the light mechs overheat and shut down.

[Codejack]

Alistair Winter, on 22 December 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

i guess I wasn't being clear. My DPS is higher, because I'm hitting with practically 100% of my shots, whereas it's quite difficult for other mechs to bring their weapons to bear on a fast light mech. Lasers should be a good weapon against lights, but even then you have to take into account that arm mounted and torso mounted weapons won't be aligned all the time. Not to mention mechs armed with ACs, PPCs or gauss rifles - on their own, they're virtually defenseless against lights unless the light mechs overheat and shut down.

OK, again, the problem here isn't that you get to use streaks, but that everyone else doesn't.

Sure, they could use some balancing out, too, but nothing like what ECM needs.

Light mechs should be afraid of going toe-to-toe with heavy mechs, not the other way around

[Tigerhawk71]

Until they fix hit registration on light mechs, allow SSRMs to lock under ECM.

As it stands there's no way to reliably counter a light mech (streaks) that light mechs can't counter themselves (ECM)

[Alistair Winter]

Codejack, on 22 December 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

OK, again, the problem here isn't that you get to use streaks, but that everyone else doesn't.

Sure, they could use some balancing out, too, but nothing like what ECM needs.

Light mechs should be afraid of going toe-to-toe with heavy mechs, not the other way around

Well, I think the idea is that there will be a rock, paper, scissors mechanic, where light mechs < mediums < heavies < assault mechs < light mechs. So the light mechs aren't simply there to help the big mechs, they're actually supposed to be able to take care of themselves. I could be wrong about this, but it seems to be the way is designed right now. As you say, there are Commandos wreaking havoc on the battlefield right now. I'm more worried about facing a Commando than an Awesome, for example.

And I respectfully disagree with you in regards to the problem. No weapon should be a must, so I don't think the problem is that everyone needs to pack SSRMs. It would be boring if that were the case, IMO. Same as the ECM - the problem isn't that some groups lack ECM, the problem is that the ECM is too powerful. It shouldn't be a must, it should just be an optional bonus, like the BAP or jump jets.

[Codejack]

Alistair Winter, on 22 December 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Well, I think the idea is that there will be a rock, paper, scissors mechanic, where light mechs < mediums < heavies < assault mechs < light mechs. So the light mechs aren't simply there to help the big mechs, they're actually supposed to be able to take care of themselves. I could be wrong about this, but it seems to be the way is designed right now. As you say, there are Commandos wreaking havoc on the battlefield right now. I'm more worried about facing a Commando than an Awesome, for example.

Right, in anything but another light ECM-streak mech. The rock-paper-scissors balance is broken; the only counter to ECM lights are more ECM lights, or maybe an Atlas. In my Commando I kill mediums, heavies, and assaults all the time. Shouldn't some variant of one of them be good at killing lights?

Alistair Winter, on 22 December 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

And I respectfully disagree with you in regards to the problem. No weapon should be a must, so I don't think the problem is that everyone needs to pack SSRMs. It would be boring if that were the case, IMO. Same as the ECM - the problem isn't that some groups lack ECM, the problem is that the ECM is too powerful. It shouldn't be a must, it should just be an optional bonus, like the BAP or jump jets.

Well, it wouldn't be necessary if the fast ECM mechs weren't just ridiculously out of proportion; their hitboxes are weird, they get more armor than they should, they get the lagshield, they're fast and hard to hit to begin with, ECM makes them pretty much immune to missiles, etc.

Fix that and no one would run streakcats; you'd carry a couple of streaks, but then some higher damage or longer range weapons.

[El Jeffe]

Tigerhawk71, on 22 December 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Until they fix hit registration on light mechs, allow SSRMs to lock under ECM.

As it stands there's no way to reliably counter a light mech (streaks) that light mechs can't counter themselves (ECM)

What's wrong with the hit detection on Lights? I was going to post a thread about how Light mechs are taking far too much damage apparently haha

[blinkin]

El Jeffe, on 22 December 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

What's wrong with the hit detection on Lights? I was going to post a thread about how Light mechs are taking far too much damage apparently haha

lately the lag shield appears to be almost completely gone i have been blowing apart lights with standard srm. the shots are still a challenge because of leading the targets but now when the missiles hit on screen the light mech flies apart.

Edited by blinkin, 22 December 2012 - 09:58 PM.

[Goreshade]

As part of the TT rules, you can dummy fire SSRM this would balance the ECM issues with the SSRM. It should still be allowed to lock on without ECM, just needed skill if you can't lock.