80 replies to this topic

[Pugastrius]

Regarding: http://mwomercs.com/...91#entry1639491

Quote

After review, it seems that Large Lasers are working at a rate that is fairly well balanced. That being said, the Large PULSE Laser and ER-Large Lasers seem to be generating too much heat. I've found some new numbers that work fairly well and we'll be putting this into test after the holidays.

The PPC and ER-PPCs also seem to be generating a bit too much heat and like above, I've found new numbers that seem to work and have those going into test as well.

Because this is a very sensitive subject with you all, I am expecting these changes to appear early to mid January because I want to make sure that numerous Mech builds are thoroughly tested before releasing it to the Live servers.

I'll keep you updated as this progresses.

First, now that it sounds like you've settled on some numbers, can you distribute them so that we can have an intelligent discussion about it?

----------------------------------------------------
So here are the current "Bounds":

Quote

If he feels Large Lasers are fairly well balanced then we know:

Heat is going to be Greater than or equal to : 7
He clearly states that he found new numbers so the caps are as follows:

LPL: 9
PPC: 9
ER PPC: 13

So this doesn't leave much room for maneuvering.. Thus they are likely to be something like:

Quote

LPL: 8 (Should be at least 1 heat more because that is the trade off for MPL)
ER LL: 8 (But will come with 3/4 the burn time of LLs, and gains 1 ton)
PPC: 8
ER PPC: 10

If this is the way it works out, each of hte weapons will have it's own "place" in the damage spectrum.

The LL: Remains the "Jack of All trades"
The LPL becomes the short range weapon of choice.
The ER LL: Becomes the beam Sniper weapon of choice.
The PPC: Becomes the Mid-range weapon of choice
The ER PPC: Becomes the Sniper weapon of choice.

Unfortunately, they are probably still going to run too hot for most people and because they are still bounded by LLs on the low end of the spectrum (he thinks those are fine), then we can't see much more improvement then this.

The fact of the matter is, even running 2xLLs for ranged combat is pretty heat intensive so if that's the lower bound of these weapons, we're still going to be running into heat issues. I suspect the changes won't be enough.

Edited by Pugastrius, 20 December 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Would be premature, since they're still subject to change pending gameplay testing.

[One Medic Army]

I am actually glad to hear they think the LargeLaser is good as-is.
It's a great replacement to 2 mediums if you have the tonnage.

[Wormrex]

Yar... and I wonder if they've done checking the ac/2 rate of fire, something seems off about them.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

Let the professionals test them internally first. I don't really want to see a bunch of Monday morning developers hashing out numbers without them even being run thru a test first.

Surprised to see regular PPCs on the list but I agree lg pulse, er large and erPPC can use something. Looking forward to see what they do.

Edited by Roknari, 20 December 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[LaserAngel]

Well all the PPC spam lately, I'm sure they'll get plenty of data from our games and internally.

[Pugastrius]

So here are the current "Bounds":

Quote

If he feels Large Lasers are fairly well balanced then we know:

Heat is going to be Greater than or equal to : 7
He clearly states that he found new numbers so the caps are as follows:

LPL: 9
PPC: 9
ER PPC: 13

So this doesn't leave much room for maneuvering.. Thus they are likely to be something like:

Quote

LPL: 8 (Should be at least 1 heat more because that is the trade off for MPL)
ER LL: 8 (But will come with 3/4 the burn time of LLs, and gains 1 ton)
PPC: 8
ER PPC: 10

If this is the way it works out, each of hte weapons will have it's own "place" in the damage spectrum.

The LL: Remains the "Jack of All trades"
The LPL becomes the short range weapon of choice.
The ER LL: Becomes the beam Sniper weapon of choice.
The PPC: Becomes the Mid-range weapon of choice
The ER PPC: Becomes the Sniper weapon of choice.

Unfortunately, they are probably still going to run too hot for most people and because they are still bounded by LLs on the low end of the spectrum (he thinks those are fine), then we can't see much more improvement then this.

The fact of the matter is, even running 2xLLs for ranged combat is pretty heat intensive so if that's the lower bound of these weapons, we're still going to be running into heat issues. I suspect the changes won't be enough.

Edited by Pugastrius, 20 December 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

10 erppc... so theyre bringing in clan tech?

[Buckminster]

I've loved the new projectile speed for PPCs. I would love for them to address the heat issue though - at this point multi-PPC builds (and god forbid multi-PPC builds) are tough to run right - you have to dedicate so much space to DHS to keep them cool, it's hard to do much else.

My K2 has twin ERPPCs and twin medium lasers and 20 DHS. I generally get 4-5 volleys of the ERPPCs before I need to start single firing them or shut down. I'd love to add more heat sinks, but I'm at the point where I'd need to abandon ES and make my engine tiny, and those just aren't tradeoffs I'm willing to make. Ditching ES gives me the space but loses me weight, and a smaller XL engine only does so much to free up the weight.

[MustrumRidcully]

If their math is anyway similar to mine, I have an idea what it could be. Note, however, that this won't fix trial mechs or stock configurations. They'll still run hotter than they should.

For the record, here is what I would do:

Energy Weapons
Large Pulse Laser: Heat lowered to 6, and beam duration lowered to 0.5
ER Large Laser: Heat lowered to 8.25, and beam duration lowered to 0.75.
PPC: Heat lowered to 6.5
ER PPC: Heat lowered to 8.5

I suppose they may round up. :/

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 20 December 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Emalgamist]

I dunno if they'll move the PPC's much, I've been spamming with my 6-ppc stalker build. As often as it shuts down, it's been very effective, especially when playing with a buddy with the same exact build. I do have to say that I'm fine with PPC's where they are now, but the ER-PPC's run way too hot. Probably drop them down 2 points and that would be reasonable.

[LaserAngel]

Pugastrius, on 20 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

LPL: 8 (Should be at least 1 heat more because that is the trade off for MPL)
ER LL: 8 (But will come with 3/4 the burn time of LLs, and gains 1 ton)
PPC: 8
ER PPC: 10

So this doesn't leave much room for maneuvering.. Thus they are likely to be something like:

If this is the way it works out, each of hte weapons will have it's own "place" in the damage spectrum.

The LPL becomes the short range weapon of choice.
The ER LL: Becomes the beam Sniper weapon of choice.
The PPC: Becomes the Mid-range weapon of choice
the ER PPC: Becomes the Sniper weapon of choice.

Unfortunately, they are probably still going to run too hot for most people and because they are still bounded by LLs on the low end of the spectrum (he thinks those are fine), then we can't see much more improvement then this.

The fact of the matter is, even running 2xLLs for ranged combat is pretty heat intensive so if that's the lower bound of these weapons, we're still going to be running into heat issues. I suspect the changes won't be enough.

Those are the heat values I was expecting too. 2 heavy energy weapons right now with 20 DHS are viable. It's 3 that is on the edge of constant fire. I have to trade off between the torso and arm PPCs when I'm hot in my Awesome 8Q.

I can't see them touching tonnage or critical spaces since the stock builds are based on those.

[Lupus Aurelius]

It still goes back to having tripled the weapon fire rates, but leaving heatsinks dissipating heat at TT levels. The issue isn't the weapons, it's heat dissipation.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 20 December 2012 - 01:03 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

It still goes back to having tripled the weapon fire rates, but leaving heatsinks dissipating heat at TT levels. The issue isn't the weapons, it's heat dissipation.

"and true dhs = op just trust us"

[LaserAngel]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

It still goes back to having tripled the weapon fire rates, but leaving heatsinks dissipating heat at TT levels. The issue isn't the weapons, it's heat dissipation.

Well there isn't really much we can do about that. The Small and Medium Lasers really shine with the current external 1.4 DHS system and we still clamor for real 2.0 sinks.

If you don't want to touch the damage/cooldown on the smaller weapons. Reduce their damage beyond optimum range (90m and 270m respectively). People will gravitate more toward the Large Laser and if you're willing to carry the ER weapons don't nerf those as much. There needs to be a balance between range, heat, and damage.

[Garth Erlam]

Lupus Aurelius, on 20 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

It still goes back to having tripled the weapon fire rates, but leaving heatsinks dissipating heat at TT levels. The issue isn't the weapons, it's heat dissipation.

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

[MustrumRidcully]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

"and true dhs = op just trust us"

I will have to defend them to a small extent here.

Some weapons may become OP with true DHS. or rather, they become so much more OP that it will be quite noticeable. The Medium Laser is the prime example for that.

The problem is is not just that they tripled fire rates and didn't increase dissipation in kind - it is that they gave us a giant enormous heat capacity of 30 + heat sinks, with only one "real" penalty - shutdown.

Battletech has much more to offer than just shutting down your mech. We should normally have a loss of 30m movement on every mech at a heat level of 4 (+ heat sinks perhaps), some form of penalty to shooting (maybe a slowdown of torso and arm movement speed and range) at 8 (+ heat sinks), and a shutdown chance at 14 (+heat sinks).

By simplifying the heat system to shutdown (with a bit of ammo explosions), and changing rates of fires withotu adjusting damage or heat, they turned the entire balance upside down - and basically turned a system that was about managing and considering drawbacks of heat vs advantages of firepower into a a system of heat as self-regenerating ammo.

[LaserAngel]

Garth Erlam, on 20 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

Are you face hugging people or hitting from beyond 300m.

[Wolfways]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

"and true dhs = op just trust us"

Yeah, that's why they are in the game now...but only for lights.

[borisof007]

Garth Erlam, on 20 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

While the balance-wanting-player in me likes the heat levels as-is, the CDA-2A 6xML user in me would salivate to have our old 2.0 rates live.

Hellooooooo never letting go of the trigger!

Yeah right XD

The die hard TT fans will just have to adapt to the fact that live based action is much harder to balance than turn based action, and as such numbers are going to be tuned to compensate and provide a more fair and well balanced game play.

If someone's the type of player that wants to have a huge punch at the expense of not being able to fire every single time they can, then they need to adapt their playstyle to suit that, e.g. use cover, move out of cover, shoot, go back to cover. Repeat.