49 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

careful how often you sa that, as Ive found out you can get warnings if you post the same thing twice (even if its repeating what needs to be repeated because ppl arent getting it)

If that was the case most the debates would be filled with masses of deleted messages and warning everywhere since they all breakdown to people just repeating the same thing over and over.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Noth, on 21 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

If that was the case most the debates would be filled with masses of deleted messages and warning everywhere since they all breakdown to people just repeating the same thing over and over.

I cant share the warning Ive gotten for doing exactly this because its against the rules to post mod communications but I can assure yuo it is true

I was linked to and quoted:
http://mwomercs.com/conduct

Quote

Spamming or Trolling


This category includes:

• Excessively communicating the same phrase, similar phrases, or pure gibberish
  
• Creating threads for the sole purpose of causing unrest on the forums
  
• Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters
  
• Making non-constructive posts
  
• Abusing the Reported Post feature by sending false alarms or nonsensical messages
  
• Numbering a thread, IBTL, TLDR, or any other fad statements

If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:

• Be given a temporary or permanent ban from the forums, depending upon severity

the first part
and Id posted literally twice, the same message, and got a warning and it snipped.

Was trying to help not trying to threaten -.-

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 21 December 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[AlexWildeagle]

Noth, on 21 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Incorrect. I never run LRM boats, and mostly just use brawling setups. It's too strong because it counters so much for such a little cost. It also makes it too easy to avoid being detected while flanking or setting traps.

It has to. The way loadouts are done they are seriously broke. In TT I never saw one single mech like what I see in LRM boats on here. Even at Cons when we had whackie missions that needed heavy missile useage everyone had some balance to their mech. Add to that the servers don't seem to track cover accurately so you think your covered and then die in a fiery death of missile fire.
Now I still get missile attacked but it's more like I did in the TT version, which means it still can become a pain but I don't see the solid stream of missiles as much anymore and I haven't lost a mech in no time flat to a missile barrage lately.

[SteelPaladin]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

"can share targeting data"
seems like what we do now imo

Yes, it fits the fluff text. The fluff text also says an Orion's SRM-4 is in its arm.

The MECHANICS we have now precisely fit what you could do in TT w/o C3 and none of the mechanical advantages of C3 currently exist in MWO (or really could exist in MWO, since there are no dice rolls to aim).

Edited by SteelPaladin, 21 December 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Noth]

AlexWildeagle, on 21 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

It has to. The way loadouts are done they are seriously broke. In TT I never saw one single mech like what I see in LRM boats on here. Even at Cons when we had whackie missions that needed heavy missile useage everyone had some balance to their mech. Add to that the servers don't seem to track cover accurately so you think your covered and then die in a fiery death of missile fire.
Now I still get missile attacked but it's more like I did in the TT version, which means it still can become a pain but I don't see the solid stream of missiles as much anymore and I haven't lost a mech in no time flat to a missile barrage lately.

You do know it would still be powerful if it countered everything it does now but still allowed you to detect and lock a target that you could normally do so yourself (no shared target since ECM is meant to defeat C3). Further it should also lessen the accuracy of LRMs and maybe even slow lock speed. That would still be a very powerful system and still discourage LRMs since it makes them less accurate, and disabling the indirect fire, it just would make them useless without TAG (which is much easier to counter than ECM is).

[Roadkill]

AlexWildeagle, on 21 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

It has to. The way loadouts are done they are seriously broke. In TT I never saw one single mech like what I see in LRM boats on here. Even at Cons when we had whackie missions that needed heavy missile useage everyone had some balance to their mech. Add to that the servers don't seem to track cover accurately so you think your covered and then die in a fiery death of missile fire.
Now I still get missile attacked but it's more like I did in the TT version, which means it still can become a pain but I don't see the solid stream of missiles as much anymore and I haven't lost a mech in no time flat to a missile barrage lately.

You are mistaking overpowered ECM compensating for overpowered LRMs as balance.

LRMs are still too powerful. Witness the LRM spam we're currently seeing in 4-mans. We're only seeing it right now because so many people are trying to level up Stalkers which don't carry ECM. What happens when one 4-man brings a couple of ECM mechs, especially Ravens? They steamroll everything in their path much more easily than they otherwise would have.

ECM is clearly too powerful for all the reasons that other people have listed. Just because it hides the fact that LRMs (and SSRMs) are still too powerful does not make ECM balanced.

[Kaijin]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I cant share the warning Ive gotten for doing exactly this because its against the rules to post mod communications but I can assure yuo it is true

I was linked to and quoted:
http://mwomercs.com/conduct





the first part
and Id posted literally twice, the same message, and got a warning and it snipped.

Was trying to help not trying to threaten -.-

TL;DR

[SteelPaladin]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

I was actually hoping someone with TT knowledge would chime in here on this. Would making an LRM volley from one mech when a C3 slave doing the targeting give any other advantages?

A C3 Master includes integrated TAG, but I'm fairly sure indirect fire LRMs are explicitly excluded from C3 benefits. Don't have my books handy to check, but they were really big on avoiding buffs to indirect fire.

[KuruptU4Fun]

SteelPaladin, on 21 December 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

A C3 Master includes integrated TAG, but I'm fairly sure indirect fire LRMs are explicitly excluded from C3 benefits. Don't have my books handy to check, but they were really big on avoiding buffs to indirect fire.

The way LRM's work now if I lose a targeted LOS I lose the lock, but if I get it back the missiles re-lock. Did C3 do the same but if another mech was able to lock onto the targeted mech while the missiles were in flight?

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 21 December 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[SteelPaladin]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

The way LRM's work now if I lose a targeted LOS I lose the lock, but if I get it back the missiles re-lock. Did C3 do the same but if another mech was able to lock onto the targeted mech while the missiles were in flight?

The entire "lock" concept is a real-time game mechanic. In TT, the spotter mech needed to have LOS to the target when you fired and you would take extra penalties on your roll for indirect fire and the spotter's movement, but it was still just a normal attack roll. The missiles would miss or hit within that action, so there was no chance to "break lock while the missiles are in flight."

[KuruptU4Fun]

So maybe a way for the C3 Network to work in-game would be to have it to where C3 Slave A mech tags enemy Mech E. Then C3 Master sends info to LRM boat to fire on Mech E. But Slave mech A gets destroyed, but Slave mech B re-targets Mech E and LRM's re-aquire lock in air.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 21 December 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[Pugastrius]

Let's put this in perspective...

To make TAG as an effective of a counter to ECM, then:

1) When Tag is outside of the ECM range then: TAG runs passively and Any target that is in LOS is automatically tagged (no targeting required and hits multiple people)
2) When TAG a mech is within ECM range then: Any target within 180 meters of the Mech equipped with a TAG will automatically be tagged, LOS or not.

Tag Provides no other benefits except the ability to target mechs that are protected by ECM.

Edited by Pugastrius, 21 December 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Pugastrius, on 21 December 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Let's put this in perspective...

To make TAG as an effective of a counter to ECM, then:

1) When Tag is outside of the ECM range then: TAG runs passively and Any target that is in LOS is automatically tagged (no targeting required and hits multiple people)
2) When TAG a mech is within ECM range then: Any target within 180 meters of the Mech equipped with a TAG will automatically be tagged, LOS or not.

Tag Provides no other benefits except the ability to target mechs that are protected by ECM.

You may want to look at the multitudes of other threads that deal with the ECM/TAG unfairness issues. We are discussing the C3 Network http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3 in this one.

[Noth]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 December 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

So maybe a way for the C3 Network to work in-game would be to have it to where C3 Slave A mech tags enemy Mech E. Then C3 Master sends info to LRM boat to fire on Mech E. But Slave mech A gets destroyed, but Slave mech B re-targets Mech E and LRM's re-aquire lock in air.

This already happens...

[KuruptU4Fun]

Noth, I see what you're saying but I still don't think you're understanding my point. C3 Network is comprised of 4 mechs (Lance), each one can give targeting data to the other. My scenario is this:

Lance = 1 C3 Master Atlas; 1 C3 Pult Slave; 1 C3 Slave Jenner; 1 C3 Slave Raven and 1 Enemy Atlas.

Without C3, having the Lance Atlas and Raven have nothing to do with this first scenario:

Without C3, the Jenner can use TAG to get an LRM lock for the Pult. because he doesn't have LOS to the Atlas. But if the Jenner loses TAG lock then the missiles are no longer going to hit the enemy mech. The LRM's drop to the ground because they no longer have a lock and the Pult cannot get LOS back on the Atlas.

With C3 the Master Atlas can give missile data to all the mechs in the lance. So the Pult fires the LRM's when Jenner A has a TAG lock. Raven Mech C doesn't have a TAG lock because it's on the other side of the ridge between him, the Atlas C3 master; the Pult' and the enemy Atlas.

The Jenner gets destroyed and the LRM's now lose lock mid-air.

The Raven crests the hill, targets the enemy Atlas and the LRM's reacquire lock on the enemy Atlas because all 4 of the Lance mates are using C3.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 21 December 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

SteelPaladin, on 21 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Yes, it fits the fluff text.

k, please scan and post the actual rules for the item as the sarna doesnt seem to have it if all thats there is fluff

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

The way LRM's work now if I lose a targeted LOS I lose the lock, but if I get it back the missiles re-lock. Did C3 do the same but if another mech was able to lock onto the targeted mech while the missiles were in flight?

didnt missiles not fly over turns? so you couldnt technically lose the lock then regain it? You either had it or didnt

[MrPenguin]

Ghost Bear, on 21 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

The only people who say this are the ones who use ECM exclusively

You can put ECM in a muromets and a stalker 5S? No one ever told me...

[KuruptU4Fun]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 December 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

didnt missiles not fly over turns? so you couldnt technically lose the lock then regain it? You either had it or didnt

What Steel Paladin is saying is what has been established in BT TT gaming. I'm discussing how it would be implemented in this game.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 December 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Noth, I see what you're saying but I still don't think you're understanding my point. C3 Network is comprised of 4 mechs (Lance), each one can give targeting data to the other.

which as he's said we already get

MrPenguin, on 21 December 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

You can put ECM in a muromets and a stalker 5S? No one ever told me...

again... ECM is fine because it doesnt affect him.
because the game revolves around him, ECM is fine

[Noth]

KuruptU4Fun, on 21 December 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Noth, I see what you're saying but I still don't think you're understanding my point. C3 Network is comprised of 4 mechs (Lance), each one can give targeting data to the other. My scenario is this:

Lance = 1 C3 Master Atlas; 1 C3 Pult Slave; 1 C3 Slave Jenner; 1 C3 Slave Raven and 1 Enemy Atlas.

Without C3, having the Lance Atlas and Raven have nothing to do with this first scenario:

Without C3, the Jenner can use TAG to get an LRM lock for the Pult. because he doesn't have LOS to the Atlas. But if the Jenner loses TAG lock then the missiles are no longer going to hit the enemy mech. The LRM's drop to the ground because they no longer have a lock and the Pult cannot get LOS back on the Atlas.

With C3 the Master Atlas can give missile data to all the mechs in the lance. So the Pult fires the LRM's when Jenner A has a TAG lock. Raven Mech C doesn't have a TAG lock because it's on the other side of the ridge between him, the Atlas C3 master; the Pult' and the enemy Atlas.

The Jenner gets destroyed and the LRM's now lose lock mid-air.

The Raven crests the hill, targets the enemy Atlas and the LRM's reacquire lock on the enemy Atlas because all 4 of the Lance mates are using C3.

Uh, that is what happens now. except without all the gear. The jenner targets a mech, the LRM mech can get a lock and fire. The jenner loses the lock for some reason, the LRMS travel to the last known spot. If the target is reacquired so the LRM mech can re lock and watch the missile track to the new location of the mech. The only difference is that the LRM mech has to do the actual locking. I think that is a fair tradeoff and removing such would be a large boost to LRMs as they'd become fire and forget.