29 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Some compare ppc to LRMs. I think the more logical comparison is PPC (and especially the ERPPC) to Gauss. Long range, instant damage packet. One runs cold but is heavy and has ammo requirements, the other runs hot but is comparatively light weight and has no ammo to consume at all.

The current heat levels of ERPPC feel a smidge high to me, based on the ultimate ERPPC boat: The Warhawk.

Please allow me to explain.

To mimic the heat and damage profile you need six IS ERPPC. This exactly matches the heat and damage of four clan ERPPC. (50% more damage for 50% more heat.) As it currently stands, that is hot enough to instantly shut down a mech. I could see it putting a mech at 90-99% heat, as that should not be something that can be fired constantly, but from zero to shutdown? Given presumably in the future the 'Hawk will be introduced, the heat issue should be resolved early.

This same heat issue plagues ER weapons in general, though ER larges and both PPCs are getting their heat output tuned soon enough anyways.

It is not that the current heat is not manageable, but that it feels too hot and almost totally disallows continuous chain firing even a single ERPPC due to its incredible hit to the heat scale.

[Lege]

Boating ER PPCs is bad, but combining them with gauss rifles is good.
The gauss + 2x ER PPC Atlas performs very well.
Personally I like 4x large lasers better.
Damage over time with the high heat of ER PPCs is what gets you in the end.
Look at how much damage you can do in two minutes of constant fire and that is about why ER PPCs are so bad right now.
Heat is your main resource to do damage, so damage/heat is something you need to look at.

[Pariah Devalis]

That is too simplistic a look at it, though. PPC put up front damage on a single point. Lasers require you hold target for the entire beam duration on a single part to do full damage to the part. It makes ppc a far better sniping weapon then lasers, as well as a better weapon for quickly hitting and running. Plus, if you can do 100 damage to the center torso of almost any mech in the span of three or four salvos, the damage advantage over time on a target is moot. The target is dead fast and clean, giving you a chance to cool off.

[Stingz]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 December 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

That is too simplistic a look at it, though. PPC put up front damage on a single point. Lasers require you hold target for the entire beam duration on a single part to do full damage to the part.

PPCs are a all-or-nothing gamble at long range, lasers can be moved back onto target. PPC has travel time, Lasers are instant hit.

[JustPyro]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 December 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Some compare ppc to LRMs. I think the more logical comparison is PPC (and especially the ERPPC) to Gauss. Long range, instant damage packet. One runs cold but is heavy and has ammo requirements, the other runs hot but is comparatively light weight and has no ammo to consume at all.

The current heat levels of ERPPC feel a smidge high to me, based on the ultimate ERPPC boat: The Warhawk.

Please allow me to explain.

To mimic the heat and damage profile you need six IS ERPPC. This exactly matches the heat and damage of four clan ERPPC. (50% more damage for 50% more heat.) As it currently stands, that is hot enough to instantly shut down a mech. I could see it putting a mech at 90-99% heat, as that should not be something that can be fired constantly, but from zero to shutdown? Given presumably in the future the 'Hawk will be introduced, the heat issue should be resolved early.

This same heat issue plagues ER weapons in general, though ER larges and both PPCs are getting their heat output tuned soon enough anyways.

It is not that the current heat is not manageable, but that it feels too hot and almost totally disallows continuous chain firing even a single ERPPC due to its incredible hit to the heat scale.

You don't have to alpha strike. In fact, you mostly shouldn't. Alphas are supposed to be devastating and risky. And if 6 ERPPCs can't be alphas by the IS, then that doesn't mean we lower the heat. It means people either don't fire all 6 at once, or they don't boat 6.

[Pariah Devalis]

Alphas should be risky, I agree. But the Warhawk is known for being able to unleash that kind of firepower. It is also equally known that it cannot sustain anything more then ripple firing two at a time. Like I said, 90%, 99% heat? Sure. But it should not be enough heat to instantaneously shut down a mech from 0% heat. THat would mean you have a weapon system that firing even 2 weapons puts out at least 50% heat. One weapon system putting out 25% heat. An IS equivalent of over 18% heat per single fire of an ERPPC for a 10 damage weapon. That is not right at all, and no stretch of the imagination anything near heat to damage efficient in its current state. 15% heat per firing per ERPPC is getting into the ballpark. Standard PPCs would have their heat scaled backwards from this.

Scale that back up and that means a future C-ERPPC puts out 22.5% heat per shot per cannon, putting us back to 90% heat output for a single alpha. Which, to me, feels right about where it should be. You cannot even fire a single C-ERPPC afterwards under this heat load using these numbers without immediately shutting down. The usability of IS ERPPCs becomes greater by the re-scaling, but by no stretch of the imagination is it an easy weapon to heat manage still. It would still require you baby your heat levels carefully because you will still shut down in a heartbeat if you overtax the guns.

If anything, it is a simple QOL change that makes the weapon far more worth looking into then debating between a PPC or an ERPPC, of which the only current benefit of the latter is the no minimum range as the maximum range benefit is severely hampered by the current map design. It also nudges it in the direction of being a superior pick over a llas, which it rightfully should be.

[Gaeb]

FWIW I set my Ilya up to be a very cheap to repair farm mech... with two ERPPC's, a small laser, and a STD 300 engine & 20 DHS. Haven't changed the loadout yet since the patch.

Honestly I love the dual ERPPC Ilya. It's full elited, and I can group fire them about 4x before overheating - in *RAPID* succession, from high torso mounts with no arm convergance issues. Chain fire is preferred once a brawl gets going just for heat management. The 0 second duration 10 damage 3 second recharge doesn't quite make up for the high weight/heat/crits vs a large laser, but its not that far off from balanced imo. Definitely viable, I've had 700+ damage matches with just 2 ERPPC's. Being able to snipe at 1K is handy... being able to run circles around assaults (and some heavy/mediums) is also handy.

Edited by Gaeb, 26 December 2012 - 07:44 AM.

[Dirkdaring]

I run a K2. I first used ERPPCs. Then switched to 2xGauss. I'll never go back. I can fire continuously unlike with ERPPCs,.

[Palutena]

Single ER PPC coupled with a Gaus for shooting at ranged is fine on heat its when you start having more then 1 ER PPC that the heat just isn't worth it over a standard PPC.

[Buckminster]

I dunno, I still think that ERPPC/PPC heat is out of whack. My K2 has twin ERPPCs and twin medium lasers, and 20 DHS. I can do okay with heat at a distance, but if it gets up close it gets ugly. Then again, I'm used to TT for my sense of heat, where 20 DHS should more than cancel the heat of two ERPPCs.

Although I will say that I still love and use my PPCs and ERPPCs - they are hands down my favorite weapon of the game. My K2 is the Cat that gets the most use, and my Raven 3L build with twin PPCs is stupid fun. Especially since they are both in the same arm and are tightly paired, they deliver one heck of a punch.