114 replies to this topic

[w0rm]

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

However clanners fight differently to IS. So lets talk zellbrigen... clanner can only fight a single mech at a time, unless they are fired upon by another enemy... accordingly there should be the ability to focus fire that a lot of players currently use. So how to instigate this well once a clan mech locks a target and hits it the first time they cannot swap targets (unless attacked and then they can swap between their first target and the enemy who attacked them) other clan mechs cannot lock on to a target already locked by a clan mech unless it has attacked another clan mech. Clan players lose exp and c-bills at the same rate as a tk if they engage ootside of zillbrigen.

Why should you enforce zellbrigen on clan mechs piloted by IS players?

Edited by w0rm, 24 December 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[Kaijin]

"During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors."
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Edited by Kaijin, 24 December 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[Bluescuba]

w0rm, on 24 December 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Why should you enforce zellbrigen on clan mechs piloted by IS players?

Actually I do not think that IS should be able to get clan mechs, they can get clan tech but not the mechs. So if you want to play in a clan mech you must play as a clanner and comply with zellbrigen.

Kaijin, on 24 December 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

"During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors."
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Whilst this is true... Im sure we have a couple of years before zellbrigen will fall out of fashion.

[CDLord HHGD]

HRR Insanity, on 23 December 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Make Clan Tech as good as it should be (DHS at 2.0 and 2 crit slots, expected Clan weights for weapons, Omni slots, etc).

All Clan vs. IS drops should require PureTech (Clan Tech on Clan OmniMechs, IS Tech on IS BattleMechs).

[The forums respond... ] "But Insanity, Clan tech is BROKEN! TOO POWERFUL!! You are proposing the game be unbalanced! How will the IS compete?"

Solution: Clan vs. IS drops will be: 2 Lances (4+4) vs. 1 Star (5 'Mechs) and will have a maximum allowed weight of 63% of the IS Lances cumulative tonnage.

The Clans will always be outnumbered, but they will have more 'oomph' just as in the lore.

Discuss?

Either 5v8 OR 63% tonnage limit. I do not think both will be necessary. Remember, IS forces are supposed to get their butts kicked. Up until Lostech and clan tech started making their way into IS mechs (salvage and design).

[ConnorSinclair]

The fix for this is simple.


Major restrictions for IS to get ahold of Clan tech

Major restrictions for Clan to get IS tech


Cross tech pushes min-max to an even further level and should pretty much be the end game for players on MWO.

Clanners who want the lesser heat lasers or IS equipment will have to shell out serious prestige in order to obtain them.

Same goes for IS as they lay down 5 million Cbills for that Clan Gauss rifle or grinded for 2 weeks obtaining the salvage to build one from clan mechs.

Mix tech can be balanced so long as the balance is that you most sell your soul to MWO to obtain it and the upkeep is intense.

[HRR Insanity]

ConnorSinclair, on 24 December 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

The fix for this is simple.


Major restrictions for IS to get ahold of Clan tech

Major restrictions for Clan to get IS tech


Cross tech pushes min-max to an even further level and should pretty much be the end game for players on MWO.

Clanners who want the lesser heat lasers or IS equipment will have to shell out serious prestige in order to obtain them.

Same goes for IS as they lay down 5 million Cbills for that Clan Gauss rifle or grinded for 2 weeks obtaining the salvage to build one from clan mechs.

Mix tech can be balanced so long as the balance is that you most sell your soul to MWO to obtain it and the upkeep is intense.

C-bill costs are irrelevant. Either it is balanced in-game or not. You cannot balance things in-game by making them more expensive. That only harms the new players as established players will have the funds to use the best min/max variants.

We need to come up with ways to balance Clan vs. IS in the game. Thus the suggestions for tonnage/# restrictions.

cdlord, on 24 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

Either 5v8 OR 63% tonnage limit. I do not think both will be necessary. Remember, IS forces are supposed to get their butts kicked. Up until Lostech and clan tech started making their way into IS mechs (salvage and design).

You need both. Otherwise you're going to end up with 5x100t Clan 'Mechs vs. 8x65t IS 'Mech.

[Thorn Hallis]

herosson, on 23 December 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

How in the hell is this game going to last to the clans?

Ask the Witnesses how often it works when you cry "doom".

Bluescuba, on 24 December 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

LOL your joking right... omni mechs by definition are fully customisable and rank has nothing to do with it!

Quaff?

Double no. By definition every 'Mech is fully customisable - for time and money. The advantage of Omni'Mechs is the ability to change the weapon layout (and ONLY that) for free (and in the field) without the dice rolls for recalibrating the 'Mechs balance.
And the rank has a lot to do with the ability to customize the loadout of an Omni'Mech. Giving a simple Pointcommander a customized 'Mech is considered waste, something the Clans abhor.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 24 December 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Khanahar]

OP is correct on all points. IS and Clan tech completely separate; Clan left OP; Clan always outnumbered.


Would love to see a "Counterattack" game mode where Clan forces are not as badly outnumbered as usual, but IS are dropped in a clump in the middle of the map and Clanners are spread out on the perimeter. Would give you the BT/MechCommander feeling of a powerful but Clan force being hampered by their lack of organization. Would also have several built in "desperate stands" by lone or pairs of Clanners against entire IS lances--good material for those games we remember forever.

[Lusankya]

I think it is a little too early to start speculating on what plans the devs have for implementing the clans. For all we know we might not even actually fight any clanners until wave 5 of the invasion.

[Zaptruder]

Jake Hendricks, on 24 December 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Higher numbers/tonnage might have worked in TT as you had variable on the dice such as pilot skill, targetting comps, etc. When you are able to shoot at specific locations on a mech with no penalty in MWO then it won't work.

Can you imagine two brawling stalkers taking on a single daishi? 8 SRM's 6's rip it aparty while it struggles with heat management.

To balance it you need to have a system that takes in to account they are better than the IS equipment but not so much better to be able to take on multiple mechs in MWO. They are going to run into the same issues that people post on now. Their streaks / LRM's don't work against ECM, twin ac20 or gauss mechs hitting the same location, light mechs can be difficult to hit at times, a lot of them will come with xl engines at standard.

The flip side is that clan tech allows for much harder hitting, much more mobile mechs able to engage at a larger range of angles and situations. The reduced numbers will require a different play style, but clan tech inherently has an overwhelming advantage relative to IS mechs.

I mean look at the vulture.

2x LPL
2x MPL
2x LRM20

All clan tech;
LPL @ 10D/10 and double range.
MPL @ 7D/4H and double range.
LRM20 - no minimum range.

Massive fire power from a far and up close; clan LRMs in particular is devastating, mashing the strengths of LRMs and streaks into one package. Even if it needs a flight distance for the guiding to work, it'll still act as a potent shotgun up close.

Firepower that exceeds an atlas class assault mech from distance and up close... while running at 80km/h, or 87 with speed tweak.

It'll probably have much more relaxed hardpoints relative to IS mechs as well (maybe you'll have to buy expensive hard point pods that you can reuse across multiple chassis of the same type), allowing players to more easily min/max their mechs.

So essentially it's a tossup between concentrated fire power for the clan mechs and more angles of attack and more redundancy for the IS mechs. In a 1 v 1 engagement, a clan mech should always win, while in a 2 v 1 engagement, the IS pilots will have to work together to beat the clanner.


A more nuanced approach using the battle value system would allow for greater player variability. Maybe even have 16 players on field on all times, but have uneven teams (9 on one 7 on the other, but equal BV (within an adequate margin of error)). But if we go that direction, the best way would be to have the player skill level as a multipler for the battle value of the mechs. So an experienced pilot that consistently wins matches will be much more valuable than a pay to play clanner that has just bought the mad cat as his first mech. Or maybe at least equal value, assuming the experienced player is in a IS mech.

[Ryolacap]

Way overthinking it. There is no way to police honor that wont mess up gameplay, and in a game where players boat broken weapons and use OP of the month mechs, I dont expect much honor in game. The easiest way will be numbers and tonnage restrictions in games. Its how it is done on TT and works. Sorry but this is how it will be done Lances (8) vs Stars (5). I think it will be great.

[Zaptruder]

Ryolacap, on 24 December 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Way overthinking it. There is no way to police honor that wont mess up gameplay, and in a game where players boat broken weapons and use OP of the month mechs, I dont expect much honor in game. The easiest way will be numbers and tonnage restrictions in games. Its how it is done on TT and works. Sorry but this is how it will be done Lances (8) vs Stars (5). I think it will be great.

Actually, lances are 4 mechs, and companies are 12 mechs (3 lances).

Clans can group their stars into binaries and trinaries (10 & 15 mechs). So unfortunately organization charts won't provide us with insight for how to balance clan vs IS tech in the context of this game.

[Ryolacap]

Zaptruder, on 24 December 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Actually, lances are 4 mechs, and companies are 12 mechs (3 lances).

Clans can group their stars into binaries and trinaries (10 & 15 mechs). So unfortunately organization charts won't provide us with insight for how to balance clan vs IS tech in the context of this game.

Well 2 lances vs star then, the point being the tonnage and numbers is the best way to go for balance without getting into weird restrictions or counting on players to self impose some type of system.

Edited by Ryolacap, 24 December 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Joe Mallad]

Merky Merc, on 23 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Too bad we can mix and match weapons as is given the hardpoint system. Your point seems wasted given the current system.

my point is not wasted. Just because we have a hard point system and can freely put in say any AC in a ballistic hard point or different lasers in laser hard points, does not make IS mech modular like Clan mech and it does not mean the Devs will allow any IS mech to use Clan tech. At least not right away. Even in canon Mechwarrior, it was quite some time before the IS could get their hands of clan tech and be able to reverse engineer it to be able to be used in and or on IS mech. And even then, new IS mech had to be made to go hand and hand with the new Clan tech. Most of our IS mech we have now were not worth it in cost to retrofit them. It was cheaper to build all new mech and chassis to work with the new tech.

Example... there was only one variant of the Atlas that ever went though a refit to be able to use Clan tech and that was the AS7-D which became the AS7-D ( C ). And it was not until 3136 that a new AS7-D was built on a whole new frame to incorporate Clan Omni weapons. So yeah... I dont think we will just be able to mix and match tech at will once the Clans come.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 24 December 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[Merky Merc]

Yoseful Mallad, on 24 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

my point is not wasted. Just because we have a hard point system and can freely put in say any AC in a ballistic hard point or different lasers in laser hard points, does not make IS mech modular like Clan mech and it does not mean the Devs will allow any IS mech to use Clan tech.

You can put a gauss rifle, in a machine gun slot. Seems pretty modular to me. You couldn't even do that in MW4

[v4skunk]

IS are supposed to get stomped by Clans at first. That is the way it should be........

[Duncan Fisher]

Okay my question is this: If the suggested 5v8 balancing is implemented, who will want to play IS other than die-hard role players and noobs who don't know any better? If that represents perfect balance, clanners must be getting significantly more kills than IS pilots, not to mention the IS pilot can expect to lose any 1v1 they happen to get in to.

The only game modes in ANY video game where having numerically unbalanced teams works is in zombie/infection type games where the teams are constantly changing anyway. Even in attack/defend scenarios, the game is balanced so that defenders have the same number of people despite any "defenders advantage." If one side is more powerful than the other, people will always want to be on the more powerful one, not the inferior side who is supposed to win by swarm tactics alone.

In summary, 5v8 or any similar type of balancing is a bad idea, and while this may be how it works in TT and BT universe, in this game, every individual pilot is a real person who should be offered the same experience as any other pilot.

Maybe offer that as an option for role players, but if clan tech is going to be indisputably superior to IS, the only practical implementation of the clan invasion is PvE (although I sadly doubt PGI is capable of making that happen).

[Ryolacap]

Games about teamwork and will eventually become a war game, your mind set is to much set on 1vs1, 5v8 would work. Personally I will relish every clanner that goes down in a ball of flame. PvE will never happen, not just PGI, but would be too hard to implement for just about anyone with all the variables going on in game. At least would not be a good player experience.

Edited by Ryolacap, 24 December 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

So is Zelbriggen going to be a given?

If I'min an IS mech fighting 3 Clanners, do I need to type it into chat or will clanners be forced into it?

Ryolacap, on 24 December 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Games about teamwork and will eventually become a war game, your mind set is to much set on 1vs1, 5v8 would work. Personally I will relish every clanner that goes down in a ball of flame. PvE will never happen, not just PGI, but would be too hard to implement for just about anyone with all the variables going on in game. At least would not be a good player experience.

but is it so farfetched to have, say, 4 player co-op going on a raid against enemy air, tanks, ground troops, and a few enemy mechs?

[Distratus]

I think whatever they do they will make it so it doesn't punish new players, it's approachable, and it gives the company an opportunity to increase income from the F2P business model.

I don't think they will have uneven numbered Clan vs IS matches, but I do think they will have clan technology available for IS players - perhaps via "Clan Tech Reverse Engineering" unlock for XX,XXX XP, or give players the option to buy Clan Mechs for $30-50+ per shot that has Clan Tech.

I really doubt that Clan Tech will follow the TT rules, but I do think Clan Tech will be superior, but at the cost of more slots/weight to balance it out.