114 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

w0rm, on 24 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Clan tech should be flat out superior in game at the price of a drastically increased repair to simulate it's rarity.

Putting clan tech on an IS mech is fine. Getting your mech blown to bits will still cost you a absurd amount of money.

I agree that Clan Tech should be directly superior. I don't agree that costs will make it balanced.

In any given game, the costs don't matter. It only matters over multiple games (as in currently vaporware community warfare expansion). Even then, unless it is VERY carefully balanced, it will still make it nearly impossible for people without Clan Tech to compete with those who have Clan Tech. And if mix-tech players are beating the pureTech (IS only, due to cost) at a rate of 10:1, the costs just aren't going to balance out the in-game whoopings.

I would much rather come up with a fun way to balance Clan Tech vs. IS Tech so we could have some interesting unbalanced Tech/balanced effectivness matchups.

[HRR Insanity]

ConnorSinclair, on 24 December 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Degrading Clan tech for the sake of balance? Why even do a 3 vs 5?

Read back. I want Clan Tech to be directly superior. Have since the first post.

Quote

With the current numbers we're running at Clan tech only has a slim chance of being acceptable or viable and this is only if PGI does not meddle with it.

If we don't come up with a good way to balance Clan Tech outside of actually changing the #s, then yes, PGI is going to screw up Clan Tech. This is something I do not want.

Quote

What is end game? What is an insane grind, cost and BV adjusting rank for mix tech to balance matches?

I'm afraid your blood-alcohol % here may be preventing me from understanding what point you're trying to make.

[Deadoon]

ConnorSinclair, on 24 December 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Make a clan Erppc a slower moving projectile than the IS erppc,
make the clan missiles have no tag compatibility or narc(goes against ideals of weapons that need multiple people to fully utilize), make the clan lrm fire in straight lines only

If we were to do that players would not use those weapons, they'd just use the derivatives that actually worked or which ever ones were still broke.
I get what you're trying to say, but every time PGI has done this its left a bad taste in my mouth and the communities mouth.
If they were to do this to clan DHS or any other clan tech MW players would leave in droves, it would be the last straw.

Affixing Clan tech for IS players as the end game is not only feasible, it's what the previous games have done. Everyone is going to want to mix tech, everyone is going to want to push the numbers. And I find it hilarious that we're going to discuss balance when ER lasers, Pulse lasers, Flamers, MGuns and a plethora of other weapons ARE UNVIABLE BECAUSE OF THIS IMPLEMENTATION.

WHO EVEN CARRIES FF? AND ARTEMIS IS CRAP ON SRM.


Get some reading Comprehension.
Cost would be mix tech,

Average cost for a Clan gauss for clan player = 1,000,000 Prestige
Average cost for a clan gauss for a IS player = 3,000,000 C-bills

My argument was on balancing mix tech and min maxing, DID YOU NOT EVEN READ? YOU AREN'T EVEN ON THE SAME TOPIC AS ME KID.

i was giving extreme examples of how to make them unbalanced on paper, but more specialized or different use. The missile ones are especially dumb.

Here is one way to balance Clan Dhs some, no heat capacity bonus. At all. you still dissipate at the same rate, but your max capacity is lower due to lack of capacity increase by more heatsinks.

They are working on making MG, flamers, er and pulse weapons more viable currently.

Also the Clan erppc thing is about the risk reward, you risk a higher chance of missing for one of the most powerful weapons in the game at 15 damage, it will still be just as accurate if you can hit them with it, but a miss is more likely due to velocity. It would be a weapon for a skilled and practiced warrior, not a new player. The new player and the average energy weapon sniper would do better with an IS erppc. They could make the clan gauss balanced by making it a higher risk reward scenario, it does more explosion damage on destruction. Bigger risk, but it is lighter and shoots farther/ faster slug. the clan incompatability with narc and tag, was a bad idea, sorry but it was a mere example. The clan lrm firing in a straight line was not a joke though, make them hit that target 1/2-1 second faster by firing directly, but you trade the away the ability to fire in non-line of sight shots for a lighter launcher with no minimum range.


Balancing with cost is one of the most horrible ways to do something. Cost =/= battle effectiveness, if it did, xl engines would cost half as much as standard(they have a .5 bv multiplier compared to standard and compact's 1), due to the higher chance of death while using one, and a gauss rifle would cost twice as much as a clan lbx ac/10.

[BrkDncr]

I'd love to see the clans come in as either bots or already-established groups. They fight in stars of 5 mechs, vs the IS grouping of 4, which the IS would double up for two groups of 8.

Now you have 5 v 8 (or, 10 v 12 when PGI gets the game capable of that many mechs at once) but the clan warriors are better at combat and have better mechs.

Yes, the IS should lose more often.

PGI can then direct the game mechanics to fit into the same plot of the mechwarrior universe.

[Roland]

The fact that Connor is seemingly so totally engaged by people discussing things is kind of humorous.

Ultimately though, I am far less willing than insanity to believe that clans can be balanced at all.

Why?

Because no battletech game, ever, has had balanced clans.

The idea of, " just make them more expensive!" Is hilarious.

I mean, it will work for me. I win most games I drop in, and always make tons of money. I'll just use that money to buy clan tech, and then stomp the bads even harder, with even more of an advantage.

[ConnorSinclair]

Roland, on 24 December 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

The fact that Connor is seemingly so totally engaged by people discussing things is kind of humorous.

Ultimately though, I am far less willing than insanity to believe that clans can be balanced at all.

Why?

Because no battletech game, ever, has had balanced clans.

The idea of, " just make them more expensive!" Is hilarious.

I mean, it will work for me. I win most games I drop in, and always make tons of money. I'll just use that money to buy clan tech, and then stomp the bads even harder, with even more of an advantage.

But Roland you are the bads, thats why you and your butt buddies cannot stand against me and my 4man random kongs. Even if you all sit at archway and focus fire on my one atlas and fail to kill me before I wreck your ****.

Deadoon, on 24 December 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

i was giving extreme examples of how to make them unbalanced on paper, but more specialized or different use. The missile ones are especially dumb.

Here is one way to balance Clan Dhs some, no heat capacity bonus. At all. you still dissipate at the same rate, but your max capacity is lower due to lack of capacity increase by more heatsinks.

They are working on making MG, flamers, er and pulse weapons more viable currently.

Also the Clan erppc thing is about the risk reward, you risk a higher chance of missing for one of the most powerful weapons in the game at 15 damage, it will still be just as accurate if you can hit them with it, but a miss is more likely due to velocity. It would be a weapon for a skilled and practiced warrior, not a new player. The new player and the average energy weapon sniper would do better with an IS erppc. They could make the clan gauss balanced by making it a higher risk reward scenario, it does more explosion damage on destruction. Bigger risk, but it is lighter and shoots farther/ faster slug. the clan incompatability with narc and tag, was a bad idea, sorry but it was a mere example. The clan lrm firing in a straight line was not a joke though, make them hit that target 1/2-1 second faster by firing directly, but you trade the away the ability to fire in non-line of sight shots for a lighter launcher with no minimum range.


Balancing with cost is one of the most horrible ways to do something. Cost =/= battle effectiveness, if it did, xl engines would cost half as much as standard(they have a .5 bv multiplier compared to standard and compact's 1), due to the higher chance of death while using one, and a gauss rifle would cost twice as much as a clan lbx ac/10.

This is not TF2, sidegrades do not work in the mechwarrior universe and doing so is just going to turn away what little players we have. And even if you did implement it, it would turn out just like the circumstance we have with our current stock weapons. Players would only ever use a third of them.

HRR Insanity, on 24 December 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Read back. I want Clan Tech to be directly superior. Have since the first post.



If we don't come up with a good way to balance Clan Tech outside of actually changing the #s, then yes, PGI is going to screw up Clan Tech. This is something I do not want.



I'm afraid your blood-alcohol % here may be preventing me from understanding what point you're trying to make.

Adjusting matchmaking by multiple values would not be hard, SC2 does this why can't PGI?

1. Tonnage
2. BV and/or general mech values like heat efficiency, price, firepower, speed
3. Rank, the players overall odds and efficiency in the league

This is not rocket science.

[Ketzktl]

El Bandito, on 23 December 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Without repair fees, Clan tech will have clear advantage over IS tech. I would just deck my Atlas with Clan version of AC or Gauss or PPC or better yet, Clan LRMs.

Expensive repair fee can balance it out.

While I might not be up to date on the very latest versions of the game, the rules I do have explicitly forbid mixing clan and IS tech. There are some IS exclusive tech that clans don't have as well like triple strength myomers and interestingly enough C3 computer systems.

[Deadoon]

Ketzktl, on 24 December 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

While I might not be up to date on the very latest versions of the game, the rules I do have explicitly forbid mixing clan and IS tech. There are some IS exclusive tech that clans don't have as well like triple strength myomers and interestingly enough C3 computer systems.

Actually, the advanced rules do state that there are several canon mechs that use mixed tech, and are classed as advanced tech mechs, we are already using some advanced rules, such as eccm and to some extent double blind.

[Zaptruder]

Not a fan of mixed tech idea. Maybe eventually as a fun role playing feature once the rest of the balance and community warfare issues are sorted and a BV system is implemented (which must absolutely be modified for player skill as well), but before then, it's just going to add confusion and noise to the mix.

Before community warfare, it should be fine for a single player to play/buy both clan and IS mechs; after CW, switch it up so that a single player continues been able to earn both, but split their garage/money into clan and IS halves. You play a clan mech, you earn clan currency, you play a IS mech you earn CBills.

As for 1 on 1 matchups been unfair with literal interpretations of clan and IS tech; The game is already unbalanced in mech terms any given 1 on 1 matchup. You take a well kitted out IS mech and put it up against a trial mech; you tell me how much balance there is to that matchup. Mechs in the game vary immensely in terms of how effective they are... even the same mech varies significantly depending on the player that uses it (as in, some players might be much more effective with one type of load out, while others excel at another type of load out).

But that's a feature of the game, not a problem.

Edited by Zaptruder, 24 December 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[steelblueskies]

i wouldn't personally see the clan heat sink issue as the core problem on the heat scale side.

all that has to happen to completely bone heat mechanics is introduce inferno rounds with stacking durations as per tt.

[Stone Wall]

The poor forums will demand with torches and pitchforks that Clan mechs be outnumbered.

[MustrumRidcully]

ConnorSinclair, on 24 December 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

He's an ***** completely and my suggestion was something PGI had discussed an interest in from the beginning.

Making IS tech and Clan tech only readily available for their respective groups and then turning the opposing tech into an extremely rare and hard to earn item would be damn near perfect.

How is this perfect. Why would a Clanner want an IS Mech or IS Tech? It takes decades or so until the Inner Sphere produces anything that a Clanner wouldn't have a more powerful equivalent for.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Zaptruder, on 24 December 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

Your assertions are backed up by nothing.

Actually backed up by a decade of competitive league play, in a tonnage based environment.
I have seen as have others here, More pilots vs Less pilots / Tonnage advantages (by taking less pilots intentionally).

It's easy to make up a 1 or 2 player less advantage against poorer teams, but against equal opposition its a automatic loss.

Edited by DV McKenna, 25 December 2012 - 06:20 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I think that the one thing we can guarantee is that whatever PGI do over 50% of the forum will QQ like mad.
It will have totally unintended consequences as the players break/game the system in ways unanticipated by the devs within the first 30 min of the patch being unavailable.
Ullers will kill everything in sight as the netcode won't be fixed and even more people will be unable to play due to lack of optimisation.

[SeaWolf2k]

I rarely post on these kinds of topics but this is something that I am looking forward to and I hope that the "Everbody must be even" faction does not win out on this issue. Clans by their very nature should be OP when it comes to technology.

Clan weapons should not be equipable on IS mechs, ever. Availability of Clan mechs to non-Clanners should be delayed for atleast one year and then be very very rare. Clan mechs in IS hands without the clan honor system to balance them would be extremely OP.

What balance their is should come from adherance to clan honor and battle conventions, and of course the IS forces expoitation of those conventions.

In a perfect world, clans would be bid and drop a maximum of two underweight stars (10 mechs) or less against 3 over weight lances (12 mechs).

Clan units do not focus fire, they engage in sigle combat only, use indirect fire weapons only when they have direct line of sight on their target and do not in engage multiple targets unless fired upon. It is considered dishonorable to engage a target that another clanner is fighting, regardless of how he is doing, if he is destroyed, so be it, it would be a huge stain on his honor to be "rescued" by someone else.

I think that creating a system that uses these tennants would provide a kind of balance once IS forces were able to learn tactics to expoit the battlefield weaknesses in the clan honor system.

Just my two cents, not that I think that anything discussed here will have any impact on what PGI ultimately does.

Good luck and see you all Dirtside......