22 replies to this topic

[LarkinOmega]

So current arguments are as follows:
No more sync drops!
No more 4 person premades, go down to 2!
No more Premades vs Pugs!
No more Custom Mechs vs Trials!

Taking that to it's logical conclusion:
Why can't I get into a game?
No More separate queues!
What happened to the MWO community?
I still can't win a single match!

Have fun flaming!

[superteds]

another fun argument is that pre-mades conspire to have the game ruined.

we're literally the illuminati

[Name115734]

Haters will hate and that's why we love 'em

[Mack1]

IronEagle, on 23 December 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

make 2 queues: single player / group (2-8) , problem solved

since we have that 8 man queue allready just extend it to 2-8

Been saying exactly this for months, it actually is the total logical and only satisfactory decision, it solves everything.

[LarkinOmega]

You understand why they're not doing that? The team queue would almost never lead to a balanced match. And by balanced, I mean number of people on a side balanced let alone weight class balanced. It would also create a division in the player base that would fairly quickly kill the game.

Since I've been reading the hyperbole coming out of the separate (but equal!) queue supporters, here's some of my own:

An argument for separate queues is an argument to shut off the servers!
Down with teams, up with free time!
If you can't beat em, and don't want to join em, yell to get them nerfed!

[Comguard]

It still boggles my mind how people still want that new players are forced to join a group...

This must be the only game in the world where it is mandatory to join a Clan to play effectively.

How can someone think that it is a good idea that PUGs have to face premades? The conclusion that a seperation would lead to a lower player base confuses me - so pugfarming premades improve the playerbase? Make it funnier for new players?

After ECM it is quite obvious that the aim of synchdropping premades is not to have fun with their teammates. When an army of invisible steel golems arrives and you try to explain the newbies what ECM is, then you know that their here for the easy victories. And not helping the survival of this game at all.

[Martini Henrie]

Rofl, and here are the boo boys. It's not necessary to join a clan, it is more fun once you do, but necessary? Nope. What players do need is to grow their friends list and sit on one of the many freely available TS servers. Having voice comms in any team game, even WoT can make the whole expiriences better.

Try it before you deny it. Yes, it's like any society. Good and bad, but that's what a good friends list is for!

Edit for stoopid iPhone

Edited by Martini Henrie, 24 December 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Kobold]

Reminder: "premades" are bogeyman used to explain the phenomenon of 8-0, 8-1, 8-2 roflstomps, which are no fun for the players on the receiving end.

In reality, it is the nature of the no-respawn, ablative combat system, and will happen regardless. If this game had any sort of respawn system, there would be virtually no complaining about premades.

[w0rm]

Comguard, on 24 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

It still boggles my mind how people still want that new players are forced to join a group...

This must be the only game in the world where it is mandatory to join a Clan to play effectively.

How can someone think that it is a good idea that PUGs have to face premades? The conclusion that a seperation would lead to a lower player base confuses me - so pugfarming premades improve the playerbase? Make it funnier for new players?

Good god. You dont have to join a clan. Most premades you are talking about are just a random bunch of people on voicecom. Its mandatory to join a group in every team based game to be more effective then the masses.

[ApolloKaras]

Comguard, on 24 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

It still boggles my mind how people still want that new players are forced to join a group...

This must be the only game in the world where it is mandatory to join a Clan to play effectively.

How can someone think that it is a good idea that PUGs have to face premades? The conclusion that a seperation would lead to a lower player base confuses me - so pugfarming premades improve the playerbase? Make it funnier for new players?

After ECM it is quite obvious that the aim of synchdropping premades is not to have fun with their teammates. When an army of invisible steel golems arrives and you try to explain the newbies what ECM is, then you know that their here for the easy victories. And not helping the survival of this game at all.

huh??

Battlefield, Planetside, World of Tanks, any MMO you've ever played, just for a few right off the top of my head. There are so many games that depend on team work. I just don't understand the idea of vilifying the premade groups...

[LarkinOmega]

Promoting team play helps the game. It's a team based game, that's why damage is doing in numerical increments and there are no real 1 shot kills. It's why 1 mech cannot solo an entire enemy team.

If people cannot effectively work with a group of others, they will lose, and lose consistently. I hear over and over and over again "I don't want to have to group, I don't want to have to listen to others, I don't want to have to face teams, I don't, I don't, I DON'T" That's what it boils down to. You chose to go solo in a team game, you have trouble winning against teams. That is YOUR CHOICE.

The argument about throwing the newbies to the wolves is a valid one. I would split them off for a number of games, 10, 20 or even 30 games seems like a proper amount, but no solo queues, it WILL ruin the game. Not the least of which is that most of the team players will leave, either due to the lack of easy farming (yes, I admit they do exist out there) or the lack of actual games to play. We have evidence in the 8v8 queues, as it is damnably difficult to actually get into a game, let alone play for fun rather than being serious and trying to win. Games would be forced to launch with less than even numbers, and more than likely differing weight classes. Those players would get fed up with either the unbalanced games, or the lack of finding games, and probably quit or go to the solo queue, which makes the whole situation even worse. Instead of slightly alienating new players, who should be adapting to the games style, they would alienate core players, long termers, who enjoy playing with their friends. This is a terrible business decision as your profit base is completely unstable and word of mouth would dictate that there is nothing here for groups.

The arguments I hear are almost all the same, they're all based off of self entitlement, and they can all be overcome if you actually played more and became a better pilot and if you communicated with your teams more. If you're not winning matches, and you did not play perfectly, you can improve. Make your enemies suffer for expecting an easy win, draw them into a trap you set up and destroy them with your superior piloting skills. You may need a friend or two to make that work though ;-)

[EvilCow]

Why don't simply add lobbies and let people play the way they want?

If you like people inside, enter the lobby and play.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

LarkinOmega, on 24 December 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

You understand why they're not doing that? The team queue would almost never lead to a balanced match. And by balanced, I mean number of people on a side balanced let alone weight class balanced. It would also create a division in the player base that would fairly quickly kill the game.

Since I've been reading the hyperbole coming out of the separate (but equal!) queue supporters, here's some of my own:

An argument for separate queues is an argument to shut off the servers!
Down with teams, up with free time!
If you can't beat em, and don't want to join em, yell to get them nerfed!

This is just flat out wrong. If the game does not support balanced pick up play it will certainly die. Its not just about new players its about casual players. You could capture the most compelling aspects of casual team speak play by simply integrating voice coms better into the core game. There need to be a solid and fun pick up environment for people to have fun at a less serious level. It doesn't need to be factored into the eventual community warfare, it could even have its own type of stats that all the pre-made players could scoff at and feel superior to. But it needs to be there or you just will not attract the player base necessarry to keep the game going. These casual pick up players will spend a little money here and there to get cool looking mechs or ease the grind and if there are lots of them it will keep the game going. If there aren't lots of casual players willing to fork over a little money then the cash investment required from the 'serious' players will escalate to the point that even fewer will be willing to play seriously and so starts the death spiral. Allowing people to choose an even match with the same advantages for each side just seems to make sense... unless you are addicted to your easy wins and are full of it when you claim you 'want the challenge' of playing other teams.

w0rm, on 24 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Good god. You dont have to join a clan. Most premades you are talking about are just a random bunch of people on voicecom. Its mandatory to join a group in every team based game to be more effective then the masses.

The thing is you are on a group in every single match no matter what. Its just that due to poor implementation you have to go through some extra hassle to get voice coms working. If Voice coms worked without pre-grouping a good chunk of the imbalance would just go away

[ApolloKaras]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 24 December 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

This is just flat out wrong. If the game does not support balanced pick up play it will certainly die. Its not just about new players its about casual players. You could capture the most compelling aspects of casual team speak play by simply integrating voice coms better into the core game. There need to be a solid and fun pick up environment for people to have fun at a less serious level. It doesn't need to be factored into the eventual community warfare, it could even have its own type of stats that all the pre-made players could scoff at and feel superior to. But it needs to be there or you just will not attract the player base necessarry to keep the game going. These casual pick up players will spend a little money here and there to get cool looking mechs or ease the grind and if there are lots of them it will keep the game going. If there aren't lots of casual players willing to fork over a little money then the cash investment required from the 'serious' players will escalate to the point that even fewer will be willing to play seriously and so starts the death spiral. Allowing people to choose an even match with the same advantages for each side just seems to make sense... unless you are addicted to your easy wins and are full of it when you claim you 'want the challenge' of playing other teams.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you are suggesting. You are saying queue the 4 man teams up independently against the other 4 man teams, then lump them together, There are going to be a few issues with that, weight balance would be one mainly, also waiting for a match.

8 man groups, you are required to bring 8 pilots total, are you going to make the same requirement for a 4-man group? You MUST have 4 otherwise you drop independently - that's what you would have to do to make that separate queue system work. You would have to have a 3rd option for groups for less than four people, otherwise you've effectively killed the game, there are people who just want to drop with a few friends, or only have a few friends on... where do you draw the line.

Edited by Saxie, 24 December 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Martini Henrie]

There is no difference between the the pug drop que and the WoT one. Yes, it is possible to have an extra guy on a devil pre made but when the classes are balanced there is no difference in the teams bar competence and communication.

In the modern gaming age there is little excuse for griping about communication. It's not expensive for VoIP, and tbh when I pug I have no VoIP bu am still able to work with other players that are in the drop.

Two words. Team game.

[Ryolacap]

Well the system should put everyone in a que before dropping to the teams and needs to try to even out tonnage. Seems no it just starts throwing people on sides. I have seen steam rolls when one side gets 3 atlases and not the other.

[w0rm]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 24 December 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

The thing is you are on a group in every single match no matter what. Its just that due to poor implementation you have to go through some extra hassle to get voice coms working. If Voice coms worked without pre-grouping a good chunk of the imbalance would just go away

That's exactly what if been posting on the other, now closed thread. The problem is even with integrated voicecoms some idiotic people still don't want to even contribute the slightest amout to their team and just keep crying how unfair the game is.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Saxie, on 24 December 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'm having a hard time understanding what you are suggesting. You are saying queue the 4 man teams up independently against the other 4 man teams, then lump them together, There are going to be a few issues with that, weight balance would be one mainly, also waiting for a match.

8 man groups, you are required to bring 8 pilots total, are you going to make the same requirement for a 4-man group? You MUST have 4 otherwise you drop independently - that's what you would have to do to make that separate queue system work. You would have to have a 3rd option for groups for less than four people, otherwise you've effectively killed the game, there are people who just want to drop with a few friends, or only have a few friends on... where do you draw the line.

Nope I'm saying allow people to choose to play against other non pre-grouped players, although by extension I'm saying completely scrap the matchmaker and replace it with a significantly more robust system that will sort player matches based on a variety of preferences. Also give it an option to 'prefer' certain matches but allow it to capture 'close enough' matches to keep from very specific searches yielding no match. You should certainly be allowed to solo into a possible assortment of group sizes in a match and if voice comms was implemented correctly it really wouldn't matter. But you should also have the option of playing against other solos if you want.

[SpiralRazor]

LarkinOmega, on 23 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

So current arguments are as follows:
No more sync drops!
No more 4 person premades, go down to 2!
No more Premades vs Pugs!
No more Custom Mechs vs Trials!

Taking that to it's logical conclusion:
Why can't I get into a game?
No More separate queues!
What happened to the MWO community?
I still can't win a single match!

Have fun flaming!

Actually, 2 man premades would solve pretty much everything... Its much more difficult two sync drop with 4 pairs rather then 2.

League of Legends instituted a Solo Que very early on to stop experienced players from rolling casuals, and theres NEVER been an issue with it...never. The addition of there ELO system and the constant tweaking of such has made it a pretty balanced game.


Solo Q = True soloers or two man groups. Two mans MUCH harder to sync drop with and still get everyone on the same team....much harder.

4 man Qs = mostly 4 mans...Solo players can drop here but expect some significant challenges. If your Solo and drop here, you were warned about getting face rolled.( Code is written in a way that two 4 mans get matched with two 4 mans, single 4 mans are filled with Solo players on boths side)

8 mans = Where the real powergamers hangout..no solo players or 4 mans allowed...good luck with the munchkins!

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

w0rm, on 24 December 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

That's exactly what if been posting on the other, now closed thread. The problem is even with integrated voicecoms some idiotic people still don't want to even contribute the slightest amout to their team and just keep crying how unfair the game is.

If voice comms just work without hassle or wasted time form a casual player, then I'd agree if you cant even be bothered to just listen and work together with your team... well then... suck it! If you do poorly its on you. Even if you even out the voice comm advantage, pre-mades have a significant advantage with co-ordinated and complimentary chassis etc. As far as pick up fun, There is real value in actual random matches , balanced only on weight class. Its a challenge all its own and a real gateway to more serious types of play.