14 replies to this topic

[Xandralkus]

ECM seems a little derpy at the moment. Only a very small number of designs are arbitrarily allowed to use it, and it seems to grant them (and their nearby friends) immunity to missiles.

So, here are my suggestions:

Redesign ECM as a weapon - with a finite cooldown time, instead of always-active. Something such as a 8 second active duration, and a 12 second recharge. ECM would be equippable on any battlemech.

With the default ECM, three things will happen while it is active:

1: Anyone targeting you (regardless of range) will instantly untarget you.
2: Your targeted enemy (regardless of range) will be jammed, and unable to target things.
3: Any ENEMY targets within 300 meters of your mech will be jammed, and unable to target things.

Destroying your enemy's capability to use missiles should be a purely temporary event, and gives AMS some use as a missile counter.

Of course, with these changes, ECM can come in a lot of different flavors, with all kinds of variations on duration, AoE range, maximum targeted jam range, self-jam capabilities, etc. All sorts of fun things are possible. ECM's that break everyone's target lock on the entire map for just a couple seconds, ECM's that make the user invisible to sensors for a while, ECM's that jam only incoming missiles, always-on ECM's that reduce missile accuracy...

Additionally, a 1-slot, 1-ton ECCM module could be added, intended to reduce the duration of ECM effects by some significant amount, also with a recharge time. These would come in just as many flavors as ECM's Combined with an ECCM unit and an ECM, jamming the jammer would prevent them from single-target jamming someone at range.

Ewar can be a lot of fun, for both the jammers and the jammed...but at present, it is quite boring and unintuitive.

Edited by Xandralkus, 24 December 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[Aedensin]

I kinda like it, currently ECM has effectively broken the back of long range support in a game advertised as Role Warfare. Its become ECM scout + brawler.

I still try to use my LRMs from time to time but its mostly in vein unless I role out with my corp mates.

You can tell when an ECM scout is near by because your HUD will start flipping out lol.. this is when I hang my head and say goodbye to my Stalker.

[Deadoon]

How would this ecm system even function with stealth armor/* signature systems, unless it is not constantly on?

[Hellboy561]

Not bad ideas, but at the moment i don't think ECM is broken.

My idea.
Have ECM user targeted. (Auto Targeting upon first contact)
Have a second targeting button, say F (because its under R)
This will then swap the target of the ECM to the next nearest target, allowing ECM pilots to pick who they want to jam.

Consequence - ECM pilots will now have to pay attention to who they are targeting, making sure that they are jamming the best possible target at the time. Meaning that being an ECM mech will be more than just running around the enemy team.

[WiCkEd]

Hellboy561, on 24 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Not bad ideas, but at the moment i don't think ECM is broken.

My idea.
Have ECM user targeted. (Auto Targeting upon first contact)
Have a second targeting button, say F (because its under R)
This will then swap the target of the ECM to the next nearest target, allowing ECM pilots to pick who they want to jam.

Consequence - ECM pilots will now have to pay attention to who they are targeting, making sure that they are jamming the best possible target at the time. Meaning that being an ECM mech will be more than just running around the enemy team.

This idea of focused jamming is a great idea.

[Xandralkus]

Deadoon, on 24 December 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

How would this ecm system even function with stealth armor/* signature systems, unless it is not constantly on?

Stealth Armor would provide a passive reduction to signature size, not ECM. ECM would be just for breaking target locks and screwing up missile guidance in all sorts of horrible ways, while never existing as an absolute hard-counter against missile weapons.

In fact, if we want to ground ECM in anything close to reality (which, btw, I am NOT for), I have direct personal knowledge that pumping huge quantities of electromagnetic noise out of your vehicle is not necessarily a good thing in a combat environment. ECM does to sensors what shining a flashlight in someone's eyes does to their vision - it washes out the contrast and effectively blinds the sensor. This is only situationally useful, since you effectively broadcast your position while jamming is on.

To clarify, I DO NOT support making Mechwarrior Online ECM function at all like real electronic jamming, because the gameplay mechanics behind IRL combat are sometimes pretty derpy and unintuitive.

Aedensin, on 24 December 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

I kinda like it, currently ECM has effectively broken the back of long range support in a game advertised as Role Warfare. Its become ECM scout + brawler.

I still try to use my LRMs from time to time but its mostly in vein unless I role out with my corp mates.

You can tell when an ECM scout is near by because your HUD will start flipping out lol.. this is when I hang my head and say goodbye to my Stalker.

I am a firm believer in that each individual player's actions, decisions, and skill should be the primary determining factor of their success. I believe it is a failure of game design for a game to be so heavily team-centric that a single player suffers statistically significant combat performance degradation because of another player (or the lack thereof).

Forcing and/or narrowly constraining roles inevitably reduces player choice, meaning that the player has to adapt their playstyle to the options the game presents. Instead, let's make the game so that the player customizes their loadout to perfectly match their preferred playstyle.

Hard counters (mechanics which reduce the effectiveness of another game mechanic by an insurmountably massive amount) are fundamentally bad for gameplay, because when a player finds their preferred playstyle and the enemy uses the hard counter against them, they are effectively shut out from gameplay completely. No player, under any circumstances, deserves that much metagame power over another player.

Presently, ECM is a hard counter against LRM use. I admit, LRM's are fraught with a variety of problems (very low skill cap required for use, very little increase in combat effectiveness as player skill increases, and capability of attacking a player while counterattack is impossible), the solution is not, nor never was, nor never will be, a hard counter in the form of ECM.

As you state: "...ECM has effectively broken the back of long range support...". With my suggestion, ECM can temporarily stall a player that prefers LRM bombardment as a primary weapon, but under no circumstances will that player be excluded from gameplay.

Edited by Xandralkus, 25 December 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Thuraash]

Focused jamming sounds like a great idea! Hellboy, I hope you don't mind if I run off to the races with it? Here goes nothing:

What I really dislike, though, is how they've implemented the "counter-jamming" system. This notion of disabling one jamming source with a counter-jamming source was clunky even in the TT game, and honestly I think BT got it completely wrong.

How about this: GECM should not wear all hats; it should be a "lightweight" ECM suite, capable only of personal stealthing and user-targeted focused jamming, and even that only from close range (<400m).

Basic GECM Functionality 2.0

In "stealth" mode, GECM reduces the 'mech's radar signature, increases how long it takes to get data on the stealthed 'mech, increases missile lock acquisition time, and nullifies the benefits of the Artemis IV FCS against the stealthed 'mech. It does not benefit any other 'mech.

In "jamming" mode, the GECM system loses its stealth functionality. Instead, it utterly screws with the electronics system of whatever 'mech the jamming 'mech has targeted. BAP stops working. Their radar starts showing false-positives all over the place, and they can no longer send or receive targeting information from allies. Their IFF system starts misbehaving and randomly mis-tags a few hostiles in LoS as friendlies and vice-versa, occasionally switching the designations around. The jammed target can still acquire radar locks, albeit with a significant radar range nerf, but only on targets the now-suspect IFF system has tagged as hostile, and it takes longer to acquire lock. Artemis IV FCS stops working.

If the target has Artemis IV or BAP, the 'mech's computer detects the jamming and a large red "JAMMING DETECTED" warning flashes at the top of the HUD. Otherwise, they have no idea they're being jammed until people start yelling at them for FF, or they notice that some of the targets they see on radar don't really exist. If the target has GECM, then the system will not only inform them that they are being jammed, but also highlight source of the jamming signal with a flashing yellow targeting frame. The GECM-equipped jammed 'mech should now be able to target the jamming source, even if they normally couldn't due to lack of LoS. They cannot acquire missile locks without LoS (remember: no sharing target information when jammed), and will know they have a conventional weapons lock when the normal red targeting frame surrounds the flashing yellow frame. ECM and Counter-ECM equipped assets should be able to acquire e-warfare lock for as long as they are being jammed.

Soft Counters, Hard Counters, and MAD-Counters
GECM should work as both a hard- and a MAD-counter to hostile GECM, rather than simply as a hard-counter.

"Jamming" Hard-Counters "Stealth"
Suppose Whiskey and her enemy, Tango, both have GECM. Tango is in Stealth mode, and Whiskey jams Tango. This strips Tango of her GECM's stealth protection and the usual jamming effects apply.

Jamming Hard-Counters Enemies Jamming Allies
Now suppose Tango was jamming Whiskey's missile-boat buddy, Foxtrot. Whiskey wants Tango off Foxtrot's ***, so Whiskey proceeds to jam Tango. This kills Tango's jam on Foxtrot. Tango now knows not only that she's being jammed, but can also target Whiskey for an e-warfare reprisal. This is where things start to get really interesting.

Counter-Jamming MAD-Counters Jamming
Tango wants to get Whiskey off her ***, so she targets Whiskey's electronic signature and keeps the system in "Jamming" mode. This triggers a feedback loop between the two 'mechs, sending both of their jamming systems on the fritz. Both experience the usual jamming effects, but in addition, the critical damage lights and warning klaxons kick on, a red "COUNTER-JAMMING" warning flashes across the top of the HUD, and the 'mechs' temperatures skyrocket. This should take a 'mech mounting 10 heatsinks from zero to overheat in five seconds on a 25 degree C map. This effect continues for as long as both jamming systems remain active, and unless one pilot chickens out and switches out of "jamming" mode, will lead to one or both 'mechs overheating and shutting down. If one 'mech successfully counter-jams the other into shutdown, the winning pilot receives a green "COUNTER-JAM SUCCESSFUL" confirmation, notifying her that there is an unhappy, shut down, and still very hot GECM 'mech nearby.

This system should basically allow counter-jammers to evict jamming scouts from their territory, or at least substantially diminish their combat capability or force them to stop jamming, since the scout will likely have less heatsinks than whatever is counter-jamming it, and will be substantially more hurt by overheating when near the enemy battlegroup. It also forces both the jammer and the counter-jammer to step out of the normal warfare environment and focus on the electronics warfare battle, since firing weapons while counterjamming would be a horrible idea. That's the MAD-counter (Mutually Assured Destruction) to jamming.

If shut down by counter-jamming, the GECM system should be forced to reboot, preventing it from stealthing or jamming for about ten seconds.

BAP Soft-Counters Stealth
If Tango is running GECM in stealth mode and Whiskey is running BAP, Whiskey's enhanced detection range nullifies the concealment bonus of GECM. It should also confer bonuses to target data and missile lock acquisition time, nullifying those bonuses as well as the penalty to Artemis IV. I call this a soft-counter because the stealthed 'mech can easily switch to jamming mode.

General Issues surrounding the Counter-Jamming System
Note that jammed 'mechs won't always know they are being jammed (if they don't have any electronics), and won't necessarily know who is jamming them if they don't have GECM themselves. This makes communication key. Foxtrot, Whiskey's jammed buddy, will have to tell Whiskey that she is being jammed. Whiskey then has to find the enemy jammer, Tango, and deal with the problem. This might be tricky if Tango is not in LoS Foxtrot. Whiskey only knows that Tango must be somewhere within 500m of Foxtrot. This can be really tricky if she is in the middle of a pitched battle with eight other 'mechs around. Whiskey will have to switch between targets and look at their target frame to see if they have GECM, and if they do, if they have it set to "Jamming" mode. This still doesn't guarantee that they're the one jamming Foxtrot, but really, how many jammers could there possibly be in one match?

EDIT: EVERYTHING BELOW THIS LINE IS STRICTLY OPTIONAL! The above system alone would function fine alone; this just adds back in the current GECM functionality.

__________________________________________________
But What About The Bubble? We LOVED The Bubble!
Sure you did... rest easy, the bubble can still come back (in a less hilariously OP form). There's a more powerful type of ECM in BT called Angel ECM. The devs haven't introduced it yet, but it's basically supposed to be a bigger, badder GECM. Since BT royally messed up the ECM system, I'm going to take liberties with this and basically turn AECM into a variant of what PGI did with GECM.

AECM should have two modes: "Disruption" and "Riposte."

That's Cute and All, But WTF Does It Actually Do?
In "Disruption" mode, it puts down a bubble of EM noise in a 180m radius. Enemies with standard radar at 800m see the bubble as a flashing mess of false positives in an area roughly centered on the AECM 'mech. They can only lock onto individual 'mechs inside the bubble and relay target coordinates to allies from 300m away. BAP should increase this detection range to around 500m. GECM 'mechs cannot jam anything inside the bubble; they get a yellow flashing "JAMMING FAILED" warning at the top of their HUD. Anyone inside a hostile bubble suffers the mess of negative effects presently associated with the GECM bubble, but since only Atlases can create the bubble, getting 180m away should be substantially easier than it is at present.

Viewed from the outside in thermal mode, the bubble should appear to be an indecipherable sphere of chaos and lightning with a few 'mechs inside. Anyone inside the bubble, friend or foe, should be unable to see anything in either of the alternate vision modes because of all the interference. GECM-'mechs inside also enjoy none of the normal GECM benefits (no stacking GECM on AECM), and cannot jam anyone until they step outside the bubble. Acquiring missile lock or target information on anyone in a bubble, be it a friendly AECM or a hostile one, should also take significantly longer than normal.

"Riposte" mode is basically a super-hard counter to anyone attempting to jam the AECM 'mech. The AECM pilot cannot actually target any hostiles itself, and the system relies on an enemy attempting to jam the AECM 'mech. It almost instantly forces any GECM 'mech attempting to jam the AECM "Riposte" 'mech into overheat.

Disadvantages of Operating in "Disruption" Mode
AECM has several "catches" to its use, starting with mounting it in the first place. It's bulky, it's heavy, it doesn't like damage, and if it does suffer a critical hit while active, the 'mech carrying it shorts out in spectacularly sparky fashion, overheats, and immediately shuts down for a few seconds. The system needs a special slot that only a heavy or assault 'mech can manage, and alas, the Atlas is the only 'mech that can presently mount it. It is incompatible with GECM, and the Atlas must choose between the two. It also generates a small but significant amount of heat when in "Disruption" mode (enough to occupy six or eight Single Heat Sinks), and takes about fifteen seconds to switch from "Riposte" to "Disruption" mode. It generates additional heat when activating "Disruption" mode. The reason for this is to add some trickery and strategy to the counter system, detailed below.

Counters to AECM
No Hard-Counter
AECM cannot counter AECM. I've given this a fair bit of thought, and I think the inherent disadvantages of AECM should limit use to when it's tactically useful (hiding large forces, ruses, marching across LRM killing fields), eliminating the need for a hard-counter. It also helps that the default mode, "Riposte" is damn good to keep activated in case a jammer gets careless. See below.

GECM Soft-Counters AECM, but Carries Substantial Risks
A GECM system can knock down an AECM bubble by jamming the AECM asset, but it's not a task for the faint of heart. "Riposte" mode is why attempting to jam an AECM-asset takes tremendous amounts of courage, desperation, or stupidity. Suppose Whiskey just got herself a shiny new AECM-equipped Atlas, with the AECM system in the default "Riposte" mode. Tango, never having seen the AECM system at work, targets Whiskey with her GECM-equipped 'mech and kicks it into "Jamming" mode. The AECM instantly reacts to the attempted jamming and utterly overpowers Tango's GECM system, sending her 'mech into an overheat state almost instantly. Before she even figures out what happened, Tango's 'mech has overheated and shut down. Whiskey's 'mech, on the other hand, is perfectly fine, and the only indication that anything happened was a flashing green message across the top of her HUD reading "COUNTER-JAMMING," followed by a solid green "COUNTER-JAM SUCCESSFUL" notification. Tango is left with an overheated and shut down 'mech, a rebooting GECM system, and a freshly prodded Atlas less than 400m away.

If the Atlas was in "Disruption" mode, though, the game changes. Jamming Whiskey's AECM will knock the bubble down and impose the normal jamming penalties, but if Whiskey switches over to "Riposte" mode, it will almost instantly shut Tango down. Whiskey, however, will suffer a 15-second loss of the disruption bubble and a heat penalty if she switches to "Riposte" mode and switches back, so she does not want to waste it in case Tango turns off jamming just before she switches to "Riposte" mode.

If Whiskey holds off on activating "Riposte" mode, however, Tango might switch off jamming in anticipation of the riposte, only to find the bubble intact again. If Tango manages to feint Whiskey into switching modes and then turns off her own jamming beforehand, she will have bought her team 15 seconds of no AECM coverage at no cost to herself. If she slips and jams the riposte... she will likely die in an altogether unholy display of firepower before her 'mech can even restart.

Ideally, Whiskey will be able to circumvent this entire dance by simply having Foxtrot use her GECM system to jam Tango's GECM. Foxtrot cannot jam from inside the AECM bubble, though, and must step out of it, exposing herself to enemy locks, missiles, and counter-jamming.

Edited by Thuraash, 25 December 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[Xandralkus]

A few good ideas indeed. I truly admire your zeal for new ideas and thinking outside the box.

However, I disagree that counter-jamming someone should create some kind of catastrophic signal feedback that creates significant enough heat to be comparable to weapon fire - especially in the case of the riposte-mode Angel ECM, which as you describe it, would overheat and shut down the counter-jamming mech almost instantaneously.

Let's remember, shooting beams of light hot enough to flash-vaporize through armor (lasers) does not make an enemy's heat go up by any statistically significant amount. It takes a plume of superheated reactor plasma (a flamer) to do that, and even so, the effect is rather minimal.

If an ECM is actually causing rapid enough heat buildup to be an issue, we really need to address another issue: what if someone overrides auto-shutdown? What if they melt their mech into a pile of slag? Is the enemy's ECM really powerful enough to melt a mech into a pile of slag? If so, then why are we putting lasers, autocannons, and missiles on the mechs at all? Why do we not merely mount the turreted super-magnetrons and microwave...I mean, ECM our enemies to death?

On a less realistic and more fundamental game-design level, can we really ever hope to answer the issue of ECM's hard-countering missiles by implementing a bunch of complicated Ewar hard-counters? The point of my suggestion was to remove hard-counters, like present-state ECM, from the game completely - not add new ones in replacement of existing ones. No player's loadout, at any time, should ever be rendered inoperative by the actions or loadout of another player.

That being said, I'll see if I can come up with some good ECM and Ewar equipment:

Guardian ECM - Its name infers that its task is to guard things, so let's make it do that.

Increases incoming missile spread by 50%.
Decreases targeted enemy's sensor lock range by 50%
All enemies within 200 meters suffer a 50% sensor lock range reduction.
10 second duration, generates heat, 10 second cooldown

*Soft counter to LRM bombardment
*Soft counter to Streak SRMs
*Soft counter to Artemis

Burst ECM - Note that a renaming might be appropriate. The Burst ECM will disrupt enemy target lock.

Targeted enemy is unable to target. Missile lock will be broken and unable to re-lock.
All enemies within 200 meters will be unable to target. Missile locks will be broken.
If a spotter spots a target, and a missile boat fires at the target, and the targeted enemy jams the spotter, then the missile boat will by proxy lose target lock, and missiles in flight will become unguided.
8 second duration, generates slightly more heat than Guardian ECM, 12 second recharge.

*Soft counter against missile bombardment - more effective than Guardian, but more heat, longer recharge, and shorter duration
*Soft counter against enemy ECM - target them and trigger burst to stop targeted ECM effects. This will not stop area-effect ECM.

Stealth ECM - This one will be intended as a stealth measure, possibly to be used in conjuction with stealth armor.

Passive: If an enemy target within 400 meters spots you, they will not receive a hollow red icon until 5 seconds of maintaining clear line-of-sight.
Active: If an enemy acquires target lock, the Stealth ECM will automatically jam their target lock, preventing them from relaying the unit's location to their teammates. This jam is instantaneous and grants the unit another 4 seconds of untargetable stealth, and the ECM has a 25 second recharge cycle before another target can be jammed in this manner.

*Not really a counter. These will increase scouts' lifespans though, especially when the lagshield is completely fixed.

Angel ECM:
The jamming unit is untargetable.
Friendly targets within 200 meters of the jamming unit are untargetable to enemy units further away than 400 meters from the jamming unit.
15 second duration. Generates more heat than the Burst ECM. 25 second recharge.

*Bigger and more spectacular counter. LRM boats do not deserve absolute free reign over open spaces.

ECM Projector: Increases the area-effect range of any ECM unit by 50%.

ECM Amplifier: Increases the time of ECM jamming effects by 30%.

ECM Recharger: Decreases the recharge time of any ECM by 30%, allowing it to be used more frequently.

Mechs will be limited to one type of ECM and one type of ECM modification (projector, amplifier, or recharger)

ECCM: Passive. Hardens the unit against enemy ECM. Reduces ECM jamming time by 40% and ECM area-effect jamming range by 40%. Soft counter to all ECM.

Beagle Active Probe: Passive. Increases unit's maximum targeting range by 20% and speed of target data relaying to other friendlies. Able to detect shut-down enemy mechs at any distance. Soft counter to Guardian ECM.

Why is ECCM generally slightly more effective than ECM? Well, it's not. Mounting ECCM will never get rid of enemy ECM effects completely; it will only reduce them. If it's not by a statistically significant margin, why would one bother mounting it in the first place?

Although it should go without saying, units will only be able to mount a single ECM unit of choice (in ANY mech and any variant), along with a single ECM modification, and a single ECCM unit, along with a Beagle Active Probe. This means you can REALLY build an ewar-heavy design if you so choose, at the cost of tonnage and a few criticals. Oh, and did I mention, all of these ECM units can have different tonnages?

Edited by Xandralkus, 26 December 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Thuraash]

I see that we're approaching the e-war from entirely different standpoints, and now understand what you mean about treating ECM systems like weapons systems. It's an interesting notion, but I'm not sure it would fit the tone of the game quite as well as a more sim-esque system. Having so many different ECM systems in play would be cumbersome and complicated for players (too many factors, too many percentage modifiers flying around), and would make life VERY difficult for drop-commanders trying to run organized 8v8s.

I see the e-war more as a game of chess played by only a few of the players on each team in parallel with the core game. Because it's a layer that needs to be different from, yet still seamlessly interface with the ground war, I sought to minimize moving parts, presenting players with simple, easy to understand choices with intuitive consequences. Excluding the AECM system for the moment, you really only have one piece of equipment in play: the GECM suite (BAP plays only an ancillary role in the e-war). The GECM can only do one of two things: hide, or jam. Tactical and strategic depth grow from how and when players manipulate that one relatively simple moving part, and they do so in what I hope is an intuitive way. That tactical depth, because it derives from simple gameplay mechanics, makes for a satisfying and, importantly, manageable and understandable layer of the meta-game.

The list of effects jamming and stealthing invoke is a bit complex because of how Mechwarrior works, but those effects are not the e-war game; they are just how the e-war game effects the ground-war game. The niceties don't matter to the average player because they almost always function on an all-or-nothing basis: you're jammed, or you're not.

Adding AECM only adds one more moving part, but as is the way with moving parts, adding one exponentially increases the complexity of the e-war layer. The core mechanics and player interactions remain simple and intuitive, though; the choices just become more difficult. The bubble serves a particular tactical purpose, and is worth keeping provided that it doesn't become the superior choice at all time like it is now.

The main reason I went for the overheat mechanic instead of a nullification mechanic is because nullification is boring. The idea of giving players a chance to "win" the e-war and gain a gameplay advantage (by heating the enemy up more than your own 'mech, shutting it down, or simply being the one that gets to leave the jammer on) seemed far more satisfying, and makes the e-war more consequential. The idea of a gambit, a game of chicken, also just seems really cool, and heat seemed to be the best way to have the e-war spill over into the ground war. It beats the hell out of a "hack" progress bar that has no effect outside the e-war-world. So yes, the reason the heat-up mechanic is there is because it sounds fun.

As for pseudo-scientific justification, the notion is that the jammer represents a hack of the opposing 'mech's system, causing it to malfunction. By attempting to hack the opposing 'mech's systems, the jammer opens the door to getting hacked itself by the target (but only opens the channel with that one target). Counter-jamming represents both 'mechs exploiting this open door, allowing them access to lower-level systems than the ordinary jammer (which can only mess with sensors and transmitters/receivers; it can't punch inside). The logical thing to **** with would be the reactor, and the easiest way to do lots of damage very quickly would be to knock out the thermal regulators and send the reactor into an uncontrolled overheat. You can stop it manually by slamming the door shut (turning off the jammer), or via the automatic shutdown safety mechanisms. And yes, if both pilots are crazy enough to punch their overrides and neither will switch off the jammer, one or both are going to go boom, or at least suffer serious damage. That's the point of the game of chicken: you're allowed to crash if nobody blinks.

As for "Riposte" mode, it's supposed to almost instantly shut down the opposing 'mech. The notion is that you're ******* with a highly sophisticated e-war system with access to tremendous amounts of raw power and computing power. It can wreak havok much faster than the lowly GECM. The GECM counter-jamming game is two birds playing chicken with each other. GECM v AECM is a bird playing chicken with a 747. It can't do it all the time because... well... it would **** gameplay. Rationalization is that it still can't punch through the outer defenses, and can only get to low-level systems if the other 'mech first opens the door. Because of howthe AECM is built, designed to very quickly counter-jam and to create the bubble, it cannot efficiently counter-jam for any longer than the second-or-so it could plausibly take to overheat a heavily heat-sinked 'mech. The power draw would be too great, it would be too inefficient, it would burn the jammer mechanism out, whichever explanation you like best.

The Riposte is way too quick for the other pilot to even hit the override before the overheat safeties kick in, so there's no chance of insta-kaboom. Again, gameplay reasons. You want going all-in on the game of chicken in the counter-jam fight to be a strategic and tactical decision, and doing it in a split-second doesn't work.

Riposte will also play a role if they ever implement C3. The only sensible way I can see that working in-game is for C3 masters to be combined receiver/transmitters, that automatically transmit the location of every enemy 'mech within sensor range to every C3 Master/Slave unit in the area. C3 Slaves can only receive signals, and weigh less and take up less space than a Master.

A key aspect of the e-war would be neutralization of C3 Master scouts through jamming. This creates an opportunity for the Atlas to shine in its traditional role as a command and control 'mech: an Atlas equipped with a C3 Master and AECM in "Riposte" mode would be an unjammable C3 Master, able to relay targeting information to every C3 slave in the area. The only ways to disrupt that C3 network would then be to jam the C3 Slaves so they can't receive the info, or to get a hostile Angel bubble over the Command Atlas to neutralize its ability to communicate with allies (simple rules => complex strategies). Now the GECM assets on the Command Atlas' side have a strong incentive to take down the enemy bubble Atlas, so the C3-Slaved LRM fire support can resume raining death on the enemies using the C3 Master's targeting data. They can do this by jamming the bubble Atlas, or just blowing it up. Jamming here might work better, because the bubble Atlas would not want to trigger riposte, knock out one of the jammers, lose the bubble for 15 seconds (long enough for the missiles to rain hell on the position), then possibly have to repeat the process. The Bubble Atlas should probably call in its own GECM assets to jam the jammer so the bubble can come back up and break the C3 datastream, or destroy the jammers.

Don't forget that this is still Mechwarrior. You always have the option to mutter "forget the damned e-war" and try your luck with bullets. =P

Edited by Thuraash, 26 December 2012 - 02:36 AM.

[Xandralkus]

Indeed, we do seem to go about Ewar mechanic design quite differently.

I do not favor the simplistic approach when it comes to game design, especially for non-weapon ancilliary support items. I firmly believe that the more options the player is given, the better the player will be able to adapt their loadout to their preferred playstyle, instead of the player changing playstyle to fit the potential options in-game. This is why I support as infinitely customizable ewar as is theoretically possible without being game-breaking.

I do agree that showing the player up-front what all the various ECM modules do (in terms of percentages, ranges, and effects) may be a bit much - but this is what simplified tooltips are for. They actually got this aspect of game engagement right with the weapon design: they never actually display the damage, heat, or cooldown of a weapon in the mechlab. Eventually, the player will get curious and look it up - and we can trust the players to do the same with Ewar.

I also agree that it would make it exceptionally difficult for 8 vs 8 commanders to work out some sort of effective Ewar strategy. In fact, I would take that a step further: it should be impossible. Eight people working in tandem against a single player is quite game-breaking in just about any circumstance. If anything, Ewar should be a tool that a single player uses to disrupt the cohesion of an eight-man team and even the playing field, not a tool that an eight-man team uses to doom a single player in the blink of an eye.

The probability of exploits or metagaming increases as the mechanics become simpler and gravitate more toward hard-counter instead of soft-counter. Consider the game rock, paper, scissors: Incredibly simple mechanics with extreme hard-counters. It discourages players with a preferred playstyle and disregards player skill at the game itself completely. In fact, one could even argue that rock, paper, scissors is not even a game in and of itself - the only game content is in the psychological metagame, trying to guess what choice your opponent is going to make next.

Metagaming is the enemy; no player (or group of players) should be free to transcend MWO's game mechanics, play a completely different game (in this case, the Ewar game), and affect other players in MWO in the process. I disagree that a few players on each side should partake in some exotic Ewar-variant of chess, and hard-counter other players that are playing MWO instead.

I am having trouble imagining a more extreme hard-counter than counter-jamming someone and risking both instantaneous shutdown and alerting the assault mech pilot that you have just been shut down.That's an extremely overpowered capability; no player deserves to have that kind of power over another.

On a less tangential note, keep in mind that if one first holds down the override shutdown key, then attempts to jam someone with Angel ECM in Riposte mode, they would instantaneously self-destruct, because the override was triggered before they attempted jamming.

I agree that nullification is boring. But instead of trying to make nullification entertaining, perhaps we should design mechanics that don't allow a player to nullify the actions of another. A soft counter is always better than a hard counter; a hard counter is insurmountable, a soft counter is a test of skill. People don't deserve to win at MWO because they can metagame better, they deserve to win because they can play MWO better.

Edited by Xandralkus, 26 December 2012 - 04:06 AM.

[Xandralkus]

Also, if you check the function of both of our suggested Angel ECM's, they both offer much the same tactical capability at shielding multiple allies from missile attacks. Additionally, mine is customizable depending on preferred playstyle. Three permutations are available:

Angel + Amplifier: 19.5 seconds of untargetability (instead of 15 seconds)

Angel + Projector: Enemies must be closer than 200 meters to target lock (instead of closer than 400 meters)

Angel + Recharger: 17.5 second recharge time (instead of 25 seconds)

The Angel ECM becomes a lot more complex when it's not 'always on', and the pilot has to figure out when best to turn it on for maximum effect. It's a very powerful piece of equipment for that 15 (or 19.5) seconds.

[Thuraash]

I don't understand why you dislike the meta-game so much. Strong meta-game appears to be the key to making a deep, timeless game that can be successful and entertaining over the long haul. The meta-game will ALWAYS be there, especially in a Mechwarrior game; the only way to get rid of it is to rig the game so only one strategy is plausible. That dominant strategy will then become the meta, eliminating meta-gaming. That's a failure condition for any game designer.

Also, simple but balanced rules make for a more tactically interesting meta; it's up-front complication that results in higher probability of exploits and randomness deciding matches (which of the twenty available items you chose to bring to the table, and which your opponent chose to bring). Complicated rules also make it difficult to understand wtf is going on around you and increases the probability that there will simply be a few items that are outright superior to the others.

Having counters of varying strengths also makes the game more interesting. I agree that the AECM "Riposte" mode is an extremely hard counter when viewed simply at the 1:1 level at the moment a jamming 'mech gets Riposted, but it's really not that hard a counter in terms of the course of the battle. First, the Atlas CANNOT aim the Riposte system. An enemy has to make the mistake or take the risk of attempting to jam the AECM asset, and only then does that counter come into play. If the enemy was careless and left jamming mode active when they target the AECM Atlas, they get punished for their carelessness. If they NEEDED to take the AECM bubble down, then they assumed the risk and still accomplished their goal (the bubble is down for 15 seconds). It's also softened by the fact that the Atlas loses its ability to bubble-shield its allies for fifteen seconds, will suffer increased heat generation when it tries to put the bubble back up, limiting its combat effectiveness, and that it has several tons and critical slots' worth of hardware sitting in its torso doing a whole lot of nothing during that time.

Also, I think you overestimate how decisive this e-war will be in most battles. It's designed to have a less pronounced effect than the current ECM system (of course, that's not saying much given that ECM has firmly established itself as the dominant strategy in this build). Players don't HAVE to engage in the e-war, and players not mounting e-war equipment can still deal with players that do using the conventional means. It just creates tactical opportunities and liabilities that weren't there before to deepen gameplay and give players options, especially when playing the team game (which should really be the only game in a Mechwarrior title).

And with the Angel shutdown, I was trying to say that Riposte disables the override. You cannot override the riposte because that would be bad for gameplay. Even if you mashed down the override in advance, you still just shut down.

Finally, I don't think my counterjamming mechanic is insurmountable, or a hard-counter in the sense you suggest. It's the opposite. Yes, a counter-jammed scout in hostile territory will have to abandon jamming for a bit and retreat to allies, or somehow deal with the counter-jammer. They would probably have to do that using conventional weapons unless they're specifically tooled to out-counter-jam 'mechs (running lots of heats sinks, for example). Again, it forces players to make tactical and strategic choices on the field.

[Metafox]

I like some of these ideas, but I'll have to admit that I didn't read the last few posts. I don't believe that ECM should be too complicated. I also believe that any changes should solve the existing problems without introducing new ones. In my opinion, the main problems with ECM are the complete superiority of ECM variants over non-ECM variants, and the fact that ECM scouts have no natural predators. I like the new ideas that you guys have, I just think that these ideas might be getting a little cumbersome. I'd want ECM to be understandable and, most importantly, optional.

[Thuraash]

Metafox, I completely agree with you. That's actually exactly why I suggested the system above. It only needs a few simple rules (though I understand why the essay above suggests otherwise...).

GECM can do one of two things: it can stealth the 'mech using it, and it can jam one target 'mech. If Alpha jams Bravo, then Bravo cannot jam any third 'mech and loses the benefits of stealth GECM. Bravo CAN counter-jam Alpha, creating a feedback loop that sends both 'mechs rapidly heating up, creating a game of chicken between them.

AECM can do one of two things: it can defend the user from jamming attempts with a powerful counter-jam (must be provoked by a hostile jamming attempt), and it can create a defensive bubble around the 'mech that obscures and protects everything inside it on sensors, but also penalizes the 'mechs inside to some extent.

That's it. Everything else follows from there. I think that's simple enough to be easily understood and manipulated, but deep enough to allow for some interesting tactics.

[Xandralkus]

I thought I described why metagame was an undesirable phenomenon in game design; it allows players the capability to transcend the game completely, while still affecting other players playing the original game.

ECM has no effect on lasers or ballistics, but if you happen to be one of the players that prefers missiles as a primary weapon, you are regularly forced to play the ECM game (being unable to engage), and by consequence, the ECM metagame (if you wish to participate in ordinary gameplay, AKA, launching your missiles). Anyone who was relying on that missileboat now becomes a drive-by victim of the ECM metagame, with the only course of action being to partake in the ECM metagame themselves. Anyone who the missileboat was going to engage is now at full armor instead of heavily damaged or dead - and when that happens, everyone they fire at, and everyone that fires at them, is affected by the ECM metagame.

You would be hard-pressed to find even a single player in an 8 vs 8 match which is completely and totally unaffected by the ECM metagame and its cascade of effects. It would require a team with no missile armament whatsoever. THIS is the real danger of the ECM metagame: it does affect people that otherwise 'choose not to play'.

Perhaps more importantly, on the idea that games require metagames to be successful: Never make the mistake of assuming the status quo is the state of perfection.

Metagaming may be a fast, cheap, and easy answer to the question of "How do we appeal to people with different preferences in gaming?". The truth is, we shouldn't need metagaming for that. The game's own inseperable, intranscendable mechanics should be intricate and detailed enough to allow for near-limitless variation in gameplay style. If the devs fail here, the game doesn't deserve masses of people with diverse gaming interests monetizing it.

The learning curve is not something to be afraid of. Implementing one is not going to drive off players. Eventually, developers (as a whole) might realize this. The metagaming which is present in modern gaming is a symptom of oversimplified game mechanics, ultimately brought upon by the unfounded paranoia that players won't play if the game actually expects them to spend time learning how to play.

As long as the learning process is engaging and not demoralizing to the learning player, then they will stay and keep playing. If developers fail at even this...they should probably not be developing games at all.

Edited by Xandralkus, 28 December 2012 - 05:13 AM.