23 replies to this topic

[Korps]

this time do not scan it like the sports page or the covers at the check out line at walley world.

the Beta started. it is active and growing in size. PERIOD.

the devs will be continuing invites Through release. regardless of purchasing a founders package.

founders package gaurantees you an invite if on July 17th you have not been invited yet. you can make this purchase in June. bonuses for package take effect on july 17th not before if you are already invited.

since founders package CANNOT be purchased yet that does absolutely nothing in determaing your invite to beta Yet.

the Devs were Very very clear IF you bothered to read the ENTIRE posting. lol

but for those who still wish to chew them out. i point you in the general direction of BFE and say take a hike. lol

[infinite xaer0]

well, invites go out tmr.. or whenever "tmr" is for PGI

[Name140704]

Good summation.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Also, the Founder's Battlemech is not a damn Elite mech! You get it by buying the "Elite" package, it has nothing to do with mech or pilot XP levels! It's just a cool looking mech that no one else has! It's not better, just different!

[Rear Admiral]

Good lord thank you for posting this, OP. Not that anybody who couldnt be bothered to read the original announcement will bother to read this. *facepalm

[Jakebob]

good post... it's amazing how many threads have popped up today by people who apparently have reading comprehension issues.

[Arioch]

LOL

Maybe they need a diagram or a short comic strip to explain it.

[Arafinar]

Pretty standard isnt it? For most to come into a forum, not read anything fully and post away right?
Ara

[chockyy]

Korps, on 22 May 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

this time do not scan it like the sports page or the covers at the check out line at walley world.

the Beta started. it is active and growing in size. PERIOD.

the devs will be continuing invites Through release. regardless of purchasing a founders package.

founders package gaurantees you an invite if on July 17th you have not been invited yet. you can make this purchase in June. bonuses for package take effect on july 17th not before if you are already invited.

since founders package CANNOT be purchased yet that does absolutely nothing in determaing your invite to beta Yet.

the Devs were Very very clear IF you bothered to read the ENTIRE posting. lol

but for those who still wish to chew them out. i point you in the general direction of BFE and say take a hike. lol

Well said.

Edited by chockyy, 22 May 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[MadBoris]

Yes sir!

/salutes

[SweetJackal]

Oswin Aurelius, on 22 May 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Also, the Founder's Battlemech is not a damn Elite mech! You get it by buying the "Elite" package, it has nothing to do with mech or pilot XP levels! It's just a cool looking mech that no one else has! It's not better, just different!

Garth Erlam, on 22 May 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

These will not be vastly superior death machines - they will be on par with other variants; they are merely different not better.

Different, how? Just a different weapon loadout but the same hardpoints? Different hardpoints that match a different mech's layout (Like a jenner getting a raven's hardpoint setup)? Or will these mechs be 100% completely unique so that some builds on them won't be possible on any non premium mech?

One of these is pay to win because it limits the gameplay options of free players compaired to premium players. One of them will have me dropping all interest for the game and writing it off, as paying real money to expand flexibility to a degree beyond what free players can reach will mean that it can be optimized in a different way. When equal players face off it becomes the thinnest of advantages and mistakes that mark the winners and losers. When real money gives degrees of freedom and flexibility not reachable otherwise then real money becomes a thin advantage and sets those without at a thin disadvantage. Which is enough to win some games.

God, I know I can't make this sound nice as this is bloody sensitive to me. I want to play this game, I'm damn tempted by picking up the Elite package. But I need to know right now what direction this game is going with it's "Premium" mechs as I am not going to invest a dime into any game that will give me an advantage that free players can't get.

[SteeLRaiN6]

Nice summary, it's amazing how all the cars can get off the track. . . if you know what I mean.

[Aethon]

SuckyJack, on 22 May 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Different, how? Just a different weapon loadout but the same hardpoints? Different hardpoints that match a different mech's layout (Like a jenner getting a raven's hardpoint setup)? Or will these mechs be 100% completely unique so that some builds on them won't be possible on any non premium mech?

One of these is pay to win because it limits the gameplay options of free players compaired to premium players. One of them will have me dropping all interest for the game and writing it off, as paying real money to expand flexibility to a degree beyond what free players can reach will mean that it can be optimized in a different way. When equal players face off it becomes the thinnest of advantages and mistakes that mark the winners and losers. When real money gives degrees of freedom and flexibility not reachable otherwise then real money becomes a thin advantage and sets those without at a thin disadvantage. Which is enough to win some games.

God, I know I can't make this sound nice as this is bloody sensitive to me. I want to play this game, I'm damn tempted by picking up the Elite package. But I need to know right now what direction this game is going with it's "Premium" mechs as I am not going to invest a dime into any game that will give me an advantage that free players can't get.

A different weapons config isn't 'pay to win' unless it allows vastly superior mechs to be fielded by the players willing to support the game, and the devs have already said these designs will not be superior. Even if (IF) they do this like WOT, they'll actually be inferior to other designs...only good for making money/xp.

Please, people, stop crying 'OMGPAY2WIN!' where there isn't any. Stop and THINK about what it would do to gameplay before going there, please.

[Nick Makiaveli]

infinite xÆr0, on 22 May 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

well, invites go out tmr.. or whenever "tmr" is for PGI

Not quite, they START going out tomorrow.


As to P2W, umm people wait a bit to see what they do ok? There is a thread showing them side by side the "regular" mechs, so we already know they have different skins. Some are subtle (Jenner) others less so...(all the others ).

Also for all we know, the variant might be available for sale for C-bills. The skin could be reserved for only Founders.

[StandingCow]

Yep, sounds like you missed a slight part of the announcement too OP.

Invites start tomorrow.

[SweetJackal]

Aethon, on 22 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

A different weapons config isn't 'pay to win' unless it allows vastly superior mechs to be fielded by the players willing to support the game, and the devs have already said these designs will not be superior. Even if (IF) they do this like WOT, they'll actually be inferior to other designs...only good for making money/xp.

Please, people, stop crying 'OMGPAY2WIN!' where there isn't any. Stop and THINK about what it would do to gameplay before going there, please.

A different weapon config allows for a mech to be optimized in a different way. This isn't direct power, this is flexibility in the hands of the player to create configs that are more fluid to their playstyle.

In a F2P progression model that allows this flexibility to be purchased with either exclusively ingame cash(C-Bills) or a choice between ingame cash and real money this remains balanced. These options are open to all players.

When you build a F2P model that only allows these flexibility options to people that pay real money you are limiting the flexibility of non-premium players. Having a weapons config be exclusive to a real money option provides another degree of flexibility to those players.

Pay To Win means having real money being the factor that tipped the scale in any one match. If that flexibility is a cash only option then people without do not have the full meta of the game available to them. It can be a thin advantage to those with it, but any advantage or flexibility being an option only to those that paided real cash for is is pay to win.

Superior means flat out better, numerically stronger. Different means being able to be optimized in a different way. Having something superior purchased with real money at all is a Pay2Win model (a good example would be if the game allowed you to purchase a filled in mech tree for your mech, which won't happen). Having something different mechanically, at all, purchased exclusively with real money is a Pay to Win model as it is flexibility held in the hands of those that pay for it.

[LackofCertainty]

Edit: SuckyJack covers the relation of P2W to player options very well. *thumbs up*

Aethon, on 22 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

A different weapons config isn't 'pay to win' unless it allows vastly superior mechs to be fielded by the players willing to support the game, and the devs have already said these designs will not be superior. Even if (IF) they do this like WOT, they'll actually be inferior to other designs...only good for making money/xp.

Please, people, stop crying 'OMGPAY2WIN!' where there isn't any. Stop and THINK about what it would do to gameplay before going there, please.

Really, before jumping downs the man's throat you should stop and reread his message. The jist of his post is, "he is worried that the elite mechs -might- end up being P2W items if their hardpoints are different. This is leading to hesitation on whether he wants to buy the preorder stuff."

As far as that message goes, I 100% agree with him. If the founder mechs are basically just skins for the existing Atlas/Catapult/Hunchback/Jenner mechs, then I will be slapping down my 60$ on June 19th. This announcement gives me a moment of hesitation, because (unless the devs speak and clarify if/how the elite mechs are different) there's no way for the player-base to know what the "Elite mechs" entail exactly.

The idea of skins and aesthetic changes appeals to me. The idea of "elite mechs" worries me, because usually people use "elite" to mean "superior". I don't like the idea of making mechs available for cash only with different hardpoints, unless those hardpoints are available elsewhere for C-bills. If they make certain hardpoint setups only available by paying real monies, then you end up in this funky situation where every single "elite mech" becomes a potential P2W pitfall. It's much safer if they keep Real $ purchases limited to aesthetic or non-combat bonuses. (like the bonus C-bills/xp subscription they mention)

Yes, it is a little premature to get worried about this thing, but it is enough to give me pause. Until I know the hard facts about what "elite mechs" are, I have to keep my money in my wallet. Granted, I fully expect the devs to give us a breakdown of exactly what elite mechs are before June 19th. (after all, it'd be silly for them to ask us to pay real monies for something without knowing what it is)


P.S.
Yes, F2P games are plagued with people who complain about P2W. This is because a -lot- of F2P games really do use P2W mechanics, and players who have been burned by that before want to make sure they aren't burned again. (If the devs announce that the Elite Atlas is like the regular atlas, but with 17 extra hardpoints, expect me to be right out there with the rest of them, burning effigies of the whole PGI team. )

Edited by LackofCertainty, 22 May 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[Vollstrecker]

There are 30 open topics on how different hardpoints are somehow "Pay to Win." Please take this to one of them...

[Karyudo ds]

LackofCertainty, on 22 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Really, before jumping downs the man's throat you should stop and reread his message. The jist of his post is, "he is worried that the elite mechs -might- end up being P2W items if their hardpoints are different. This is leading to hesitation on whether he wants to buy the preorder stuff."

Just because you can mount a missile instead of an auto cannon is hardly P2W. Unless the setups were really cheese supportive, but you have weight/criticals still to deal with. Less of course they bypassed that. That wouldn't be very MW though. PGI seems to get what MW is so far.

[Ballasar]

So those that pay to fund the further development of the game are not allowed to have stuff that the freeloaders can't?