22 replies to this topic

[Miaku]

Last night I saw a ton of builds use machine guns. I think that the most interesting I saw was triple arm mounted machine guns!

My friends often tell me that machine guns are absolutely useless, but is this actually true?
Would they be more effective in any case than say 1 small and 1 Med laser (the same tonnage for MG and 1 ton ammo).

[Ryvucz]

Miaku, on 26 December 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Last night I saw a ton of builds use machine guns. I think that the most interesting I saw was triple arm mounted machine guns!

My friends often tell me that machine guns are absolutely useless, but is this actually true?
Would they be more effective in any case than say 1 small and 1 Med laser (the same tonnage for MG and 1 ton ammo).

it's still fairly debatable as to how potent a machine gun is, but you would be better off with that 1 small laser and 1 medium laser.

[Stickjock]

But MG's are so fun to run like that tho'...

My Founders Hunch is set as a "for fun" build... 3 MG's in his right torso... hammer 'em down while alternating Med Lasers... always a fun time when doing that...

Also, remember that MG's are being looked at currently by the Devs...

Weapon Balancing

Quote

I've been looking at Machine Guns lately (because they're equipped on my griefer Mech) and decided to make each bullet do 500 damage. Ok.. seriously I'm looking into either a very slight damage increase or to make them crit at a higher rate with a crit damage boost. What does that mean? When you blow off the armor on a component on an enemy Mech, every shot done to internals from a machine gun has a chance of doing much higher damage than normal. I'll be working with the engineers on this and will update you as we progress on this.

[Wrenchfarm]

I run 3xMGs on my Dragon and they do very little damage. I certainly wouldn't rely on them to carry the brunt of my offence, but on some builds you might not have room for anything else. My DRG carries 2xLLAS and an SRM6, those are the actual killers. The MGs are there because they are essentially free damage - no heat, very generous ammo with just one ton, no recycling time. You can just hose away to pester, annoy, and do whatever minor damage with them you can,

I'm looking forward to them getting a buff, but I hope they don't go overboard. MGs really shouldn't do too much damage to a 50 ton robot.

[TruePoindexter]

Stickjock, on 26 December 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

But MG's are so fun to run like that tho'...

My Founders Hunch is set as a "for fun" build... 3 MG's in his right torso... hammer 'em down while alternating Med Lasers... always a fun time when doing that...

Also, remember that MG's are being looked at currently by the Devs...

Weapon Balancing

This - currently Machine Guns are more or less worthless and at best just give you a button to hold down during a close range fight. Once they get adjusted I expect them to be viable.

[neviu]

They should realy not be usable on armor, just the internals maby

[Flagrant]

I've been holding onto my dragon5n, cicada3c, and the hunchback4g just to see the next update on the machine guns. Love the dakka dakka, hate the bite.

[michaelius]

They suck - even with 4 mgs and 3 tons of ammo i was doing more dmg with my single large laser on Cicada-C (and i have it on elite status )

[slayerkdm]

Not much damage, but they are fun as heck. Besides that, they are a pyscholoical weapon. I have been playing my Hunch G a bunch lately, and for some reason, other Hunches and Cents dont like to hear all those rounds clattering off their mech and run. I admit, its the pulse lasers that kill them most everytime, but MG's set the mood. Its an interesting style of play, as to make them even help a little bit, you have to play to constantly train them on other mechs. Once engaged, I try to never break aim. If they up them at all, I will be a happy camper, as it is easily my favorite mech to play.

[NinetyProof]

neviu, on 26 December 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

They should realy not be usable on armor, just the internals maby

^^this ... from what I have read.

Something about bullets "bouncing off armor" ... but once the armor is stripped, they tear up internals supposedly.

[stjobe]

Miaku, on 26 December 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

My friends often tell me that machine guns are absolutely useless, but is this actually true?

Yes, it's true, sadly.

A single MG does 0.04 damage per shot, and fires 10 shots per second, for a grand total of 0.4 DPS.
You need three of them to do more DPS than a single small laser - and only just (1.2 DPS vs 1.0 for the SL).

The low damage per bullet also makes them lousy as crit-weapons; they can do a lot of crits, but each crit only does 0.04 damage to components that have 10 health. It takes a whopping 250 MG crits to destroy a single component.

Luckily, they're about to get buffed. Sadly, the devs will probably go with a crit-damage increase instead of the straight-up damage increase they need to become a viable weapon.

So there you have it. The MG is currently useless; anything else (except perhaps a flamer) is a better use of tonnage.

[KerenskyClone]

Idealy Machine Guns should do the same damage as Small lasers I.E. 1DPS. It was that way in Mechwarrior2 and Mechwarrior2 sets the standard all Mechwarrior games should follow...

This is the 31st century people, its not unrealistic that machine gun ammo does at least the same damage as small lasers.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

If you have some spare weigh and crit slots it's better to take a heatsink than MG and ammo for it.

[Valrock]

More than I wanted to know about Machine Guns. Also, has a Dean Martin soundtrack.

Will be interesting to see what happens after balance tho.

[Hex Pallett]

Doesn't MG do more damage on structure? If so then MG is a great late-game goof weapon, especially when triple mounted.


EDIT: I mean MG does damage on structure ONLY.

Edited by Helmstif, 27 December 2012 - 06:42 AM.

[De La Fresniere]

Helmstif, on 27 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

Doesn't MG do more damage on structure? If so then MG is a great late-game goof weapon, especially when triple mounted.

It doesn't. Damage is damage, doesn't matter if you're hitting armor or structure.

The MG is also the very worst weapon in the game for crits, so they're even worse than their pitiful damage would suggest when trying for critical slot hits (more accurately, you'll crit a lot but you'll never break any item).

[stjobe]

Helmstif, on 27 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

Doesn't MG do more damage on structure? If so then MG is a great late-game goof weapon, especially when triple mounted.


EDIT: I mean MG does damage on structure ONLY.

No, MG does not have a bonus to structural damage, it's still 0.04 per bullet.

When you hit an exposed hit location, you do damage to its internals. Then, you may or may not also do a crit (or two, or three). If you do score a crit, the weapon damage (0.04 in the case of the MG) is subtracted from that internal component's health (of which it has 10). If you score more than one hit, you randomly determine what's been crit and apply damage to it again for as many crits as you scored.

E.g:
We're firing a MG at an exposed arm. The arm contains the following:
Shoulder actuator
Upper arm actuator
Lower arm actuator
Hand actuator
Medium laser.
It also has internal structure points, let's say 16 (a 50 ton 'mech).

What happens when our bullet hits is that the internal structure gets reduced from 16 to 15.96, and we roll for a crit. Let's say we're really lucky and score three crits (that's a 3% chance, by the way).
First crit hits the Upper arm actuator, and reduces its health from 10 to 9.96.
Second crit hits the Medium laser, and reduces its health from 10 to 9.96.
Third crit again hits the Upper arm actuator, reducing its health from 9.96 to 9.92.

Now do you understand why MGs are bad not only as damage dealers but as crit seekers? They do altogether too little damage to be good at anything.

Let's take that same example with an AC/10:
First, the internal structure gets reduced from 16 to 6, then any component critted (from 0-3 depending on luck) is destroyed outright.

AC/20? Rips the arm off, since internal structure gets reduced from 16 to 0. Crits are moot, since the arm is gone.

Edited by stjobe, 27 December 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[HarmAssassin]

Machine guns were never designed (in battletech) for use against mechs. They were intended to use against infantry, structures, and light vehicles. They make a larger version for use against mechs, they're called auto-cannons.

Leave them alone, they are perfect as is. They should not be used against mechs. If the game introduces destructable environments, objectives, vehicles, infantry, etc. Then MGs could become useful, but not until then.

Please do not make MGs useful against mechs just because a very vocal minority doesn't understand what they were designed to do.

[Selfish]

3 MG's are roughly comparable to 1 small laser in damage, but require nearly three times the tonnage to fit, takes up, at minimum, four times the critical slots, and can cause ammo explosions within your mech.

3x MG = 1.2 DPS @ .04 damage every tenth of a second x3
Small Laser = 1 DPS @ 3 damage over .75 seconds with a 2.25 refire

MG's are only useful currently if you like the sound they make. In their defense, that is a very nice sound. The MG buff should make the Machine Gun something usable. Time will tell.

Aside: Using the argument "it's not for use against mechs" is silly. The MG and AC/2 did the same damage in TT, but just at different ranges. The AC/2 has since been changed to the longest ranged weapon in the game and had its damage doubled. The MG had its DPS reduced from 2 to 0.4, and its velocity is so low you have to lead it fairly far ahead of your target within its 90m optimal. The notion that the MG should be untouched, while every other weapon has been retooled to fit in this game, is just willful ignorance.

[stjobe]

HarmAssassin, on 27 December 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Machine guns were never designed (in battletech) for use against mechs. They were intended to use against infantry, structures, and light vehicles. They make a larger version for use against mechs, they're called auto-cannons.

Leave them alone, they are perfect as is. They should not be used against mechs. If the game introduces destructable environments, objectives, vehicles, infantry, etc. Then MGs could become useful, but not until then.

Please do not make MGs useful against mechs just because a very vocal minority doesn't understand what they were designed to do.

Would you please stop repeating this silly myth?

MGs did *exactly* as much damage as an AC/2 in Battletech.