58 replies to this topic

[Riller]

A great suggestion. It allows PGI to outsource some work and gets the community involved. F**k the tabletop fanboys crying about how it's not canon.

[Shibas]

This is a great idea. I also think the trials are not as bad as they are made out to be; heat problematic, sure, but being outright terrible is debatable. Also, Centurion -A and catapult -C1 are pretty solid out of the box. They are a good "these are short range, these are long range" grouping of weapons easily understandable by new people and are not terrible at heat. Some of the atlases too, but I've seen a few new people to the game just get overwhelmed with the 4-5 different weapons because of not knowing what to fire and when. And besides, there are "pubbie builds" seen that are far, far worse than any trial mech.

But yes, honestly this is really great way to sport trial mechs, get community involvement, and also critical thinking of mech design with a limit to the loadout. I could even see something like, here are the 4 chassis designs with a set engine, now load out the mech with weapons/heatsinks and no upgrades. That way some of it is dictated by pgi and the community just fills in the blanks.

Edited by Shibas, 27 December 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[DivineCoffeeBinge]

Mr Steik, on 27 December 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

You now get 100% XP/C-Bills in them... They're fixed.

Fly a Trial Dragon in Caustic Valley sometime. Overheat in the caldera, press 'O' to override, and promptly explode. Try and tell me with a straight face that getting full XP for that experience means things are 'fixed.'



Trial Mechs are and will always be the new player's initial experience - their introduction to MWO. If we want some of those players to stick around and keep playing and hopefully give PGI some money, which we do because it means the game will continue to exist, then we need to ensure that trial 'Mechs are fun to drive instead of being an obstacle to enjoyment.


The old system was a BIG obstacle to enjoyment, the new one is a much smaller obstacle, but it's still an obstacle. Just because we went from a twenty-foot high wall to a six-foot high wall doesn't mean you can say there's nothing in the way anymore.

Edited by DivineCoffeeBinge, 27 December 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Homeless Bill]

Here's why anyone arguing TT is wrong: PGI doubled armor values. Every one of these builds that might have been legit in quick engagements is now almost entirely useless in the extended combat doubled armor values provides.

If you want to run a TT build, go make one and have fun losing with it. New players have enough difficulty without overheating every other shot. Why should the hardcore fans dictate how miserable new players get to be?

Edited by Homeless Bill, 27 December 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[Alfred VonGunn]

The only fix needed is a Trial Mechs only set drop Q.....

[fil5000]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 December 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

The only fix needed is a Trial Mechs only set drop Q.....

Why do you think that would be a good fix?

[Monathin]

Shibas, on 27 December 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

This is a great idea. I also think the trials are not as bad as they are made out to be; heat problematic, sure, but being outright terrible is debatable. Also, Centurion -A and catapult -C1 are pretty solid out of the box. They are a good "these are short range, these are long range" grouping of weapons easily understandable by new people and are not terrible at heat. Some of the atlases too, but I've seen a few new people to the game just get overwhelmed with the 4-5 different weapons because of not knowing what to fire and when. And besides, there are "pubbie builds" seen that are far, far worse than any trial mech.

But yes, honestly this is really great way to sport trial mechs, get community involvement, and also critical thinking of mech design with a limit to the loadout. I could even see something like, here are the 4 chassis designs with a set engine, now load out the mech with weapons/heatsinks and no upgrades. That way some of it is dictated by pgi and the community just fills in the blanks.

The trial mechs have been anywhere from "okay" to "downright awful". The centurion from this cycle is alright in teaching you an underpowered weapon you won't really use. The Dragon is good for nothing. There has not been a "good" trial mech. The Hunchback from last cycle comes close, as does the old trial Catapult... but that' s about it.

[Alfred VonGunn]

fil5000, on 27 December 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Why do you think that would be a good fix?

Trails vs Trials... No one has Customized in that set up... Sure you will have some losers going in to try and pug stomp.. But then we always have those types..

As to why? It will teach those with an IQ larger then their waist size how to manage heat vs people having to do the same thing. Rather then what we have now in Stock vs Custom....

[fil5000]

Alfred VonGunn, on 27 December 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Trails vs Trials... No one has Customized in that set up... Sure you will have some losers going in to try and pug stomp.. But then we always have those types..

As to why? It will teach those with an IQ larger then their waist size how to manage heat vs people having to do the same thing. Rather then what we have now in Stock vs Custom....

Right, but why is this better than the proposed solution here of giving people better trial mechs than they currently have? As soon as anyone customises their mech they're going to make it run closer to heat neutral than the trials we currently get. How is handing them a terrible Dragon with barely any heat sinks or weapons preparing them for the rest of the game.

I'm not sure what that IQ comment is supposed to be either, other than some smug "Only SMART people can play this game!" nonsense. People are overheating the trial mechs because 1) heat management is something they're not used to if they're coming to battlettech fresh and 2) the trial mechs are incredibly heat inefficient. It's not a matter of intellect.

[Ken Fury]

fil5000, on 27 December 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

I'm not sure what that IQ comment is supposed to be either, other than some smug "Only SMART people can play this game!" nonsense. People are overheating the trial mechs because 1) heat management is something they're not used to if they're coming to battlettech fresh and 2) the trial mechs are incredibly heat inefficient. It's not a matter of intellect.

To explain the issue take Caustic Valley, if you end up in the Caldera for some reason (Conquest), a Mech with 10 SHS (most Trial Mechs), will need all Heat Sinks to vent the heat from it's movement since the Heat level in the Caldera is THAT high. As long as they move all weapon heat will NEVER be vented. Considering that the Dragon has a Overheat Capacity of ~40 normally and ~30 inside the Caldera while moving, this means it will overheat after firing the LRM and Medium Lasers FOUR times. Firing the UAC/5 will compound the issue.

[Helter]

To clarify further, if you are piloting the current trial Dragon (stock DRG-5N), and you overheat in the caldera on Caustic Valley, you will die. You will die if you override because as soon as you start moving you will stop shedding heat, thus staying above 100%, which will cause you to explode. You will die if you override but don't move in order to bleed some heat, because presumably whoever was shooting at you will continue to do so, and you're an easy target when you're not moving or shooting back (which would just overheat you again). You will die if you don't override and instead stay shut down, because again, sitting duck.

You'll die on other maps simply because you're in a trial Dragon and have a terrible weapon loadout. Playing the trial Dragon is suicidal, pure and simple, and presenting that experience to new players is not exactly the best way to make them want to keep playing. Yes, there are other stock mechs (and thus trial mechs) that aren't quite as terrible, but by and large they're still really bad, and none of them are what I would call newbie friendly. Most of them aren't even that friendly to veterans.

Edited by Helter, 28 December 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Zyllos]

You will never fix trial/stock mechs without doing my suggestions.

For those who say you can't apply TT turn based mechanics to a real time FPS, math anybody?

But this thread shows that the world is not ready for a 100% FPS Battletech game. So it is a lost cause...which is very sad.

[MasterBLB]

Well,they should stay cannonic in terms of armament,that's without any doubts.
But why don't give these mechs double heat sinks?Would not break cannonicals yet give the greenhorns much better 1st ingame experience.

Edited by MasterBLB, 28 December 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[fil5000]

Zyllos, on 28 December 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

You will never fix trial/stock mechs without doing my suggestions.

For those who say you can't apply TT turn based mechanics to a real time FPS, math anybody?

But this thread shows that the world is not ready for a 100% FPS Battletech game. So it is a lost cause...which is very sad.

What an incredibly arrogant thing to say. There are plenty of ways to fix trial mechs, and lots have been brought up. It's perfectly possible to apply TT mechanics to this game, just most people agree that it's not a brilliant idea to do so. It's not that the world isn't READY for a 100% TT rule FPS type game, it's that no one wants it apart from you and a handful of others.

[Saxophonist]

I really, really like this idea in theory. However, the devs will probably get like 10,000 submissions every time. How do they select from that? My solution is to use stock variants, but not the experimental or old ones. For example, don't use a Centurion C9-D, use an A! The A in stock is half decent, but the D, with its terrible LB-10X AC (otherwise known as the bird gun) is worthless. This goes for most mechs.

[fil5000]

Saxophonist, on 28 December 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I really, really like this idea in theory. However, the devs will probably get like 10,000 submissions every time. How do they select from that? My solution is to use stock variants, but not the experimental or old ones. For example, don't use a Centurion C9-D, use an A! The A in stock is half decent, but the D, with its terrible LB-10X AC (otherwise known as the bird gun) is worthless. This goes for most mechs.

There ARE stock variants that work in MWO, but there's not that many of them. To be honest, if you just took the D and swapped out the LB-10X for the AC/10 (or even a UAC/5) it'd be way better. The A's AC/10 isn't that great to be honest - you don't see many people actually using those anywhere (mostly because they do less damage per second than the UAC/5 even if you never ever double tap it). The D's extra speed at least makes it a fun medium to drive if nothing else.

Really, the only stock build that I'd be completely happy with is the Hunchback 4SP. They're all built around a different game system and it's only to be expected they don't work as well as they might.

[SaJeel]

Two thumbs waaaaaay up!

[Devorum]

MasterBLB, on 28 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Well,they should stay cannonic in terms of armament,that's without any doubts.
But why don't give these mechs double heat sinks?Would not break cannonicals yet give the greenhorns much better 1st ingame experience.

Why should they be complete slaves to TRO's written 20-30 years ago for a turn based strategy game? If a different loadout makes the game more fun, they should deviate.

[SaJeel]

Devorum, on 28 December 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

Why should they be complete slaves to TRO's written 20-30 years ago for a turn based strategy game? If a different loadout makes the game more fun, they should deviate.

Agree with this 1000 time

Edited by SaJeel, 28 December 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Ikarti Danaro]

Agreed. New player experience is better than it used to be but trial mechs still need a lot of work.