36 replies to this topic

[Morang]

Please let me know: what is the common military rank for ordinary mechwarrior in the Inner Sphere, at least in the militaries of the Successor States.

I't more or less clear for me that a lance, being equivalent to platoon, is led by leutenant at least, and battlemech company is commanded by captain. But when it comes down to ordinary mechwarriors composing a lance, I'm in trouble.

On the one hand, if lance is a platoon, individual mech is equivalent to a squad or a crew. Tank crews (and infantry squads, but that's less relevant) are often led by NCOs. And when compared to them, mechwarrior is not even in charge of his crew/squad members, he has no subordinates.

On the other hand, I assume that mechwarrior is difficult and advanced military profession, requiring time, effort and money to learn, and graduated mechwarrior is a valuable asset. And both from fluff and common sense it looks like there's clear distinction between combat and support personnel in battlemech troops (that distinction blurred in poorest mercenary commands who can't afford enough dedicated techs). "Every marine or paratrooper is a rifleman", but not every serviceman in battlemech regiment is a mechwarrior. Even tank troops in WWII, as far as I know, crews largely serviced their vehicles themselves, with technology being not too advanced and tank crew numerous enough to perform this duty. Things were different in aviation. Enormous strain of air combat and skills needed for this (or furnace of a battlemech cockpit?), single crew of the fighter (corresponds to battlemech as well) and more advanced machinery (this too) almost in every military led to clear distinction between flying and service personnel.

So with mechwarrior having valuable and difficult to obtain skills and distinct in his duties from support personnel, and battlemech regiment having finite number of mechs for combat personnel only, only sane way of promotion is becoming a lance leader, then company commander while continuing to use his skill on the battlefield, and only then, probably, proceed to battalion staff position (or maybe vice versa - battallion staff, then company command). It looks like junior officer is more appropriate rank for mechwarrior. Or maybe warrant officer? I can only guess - 2nd leutenant, ensign or something else.

But these are my thoughts. What fluff tells about mechwarriors' ranks in the IS militaries - AFFS, DCMS. FWLM etc?

Edited by Morang, 27 December 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[Sayyid]

Mechwarrior is the most common rank.

Most houses "mechwarrior" is equivalent to a TSGT, or SSGT (USARMY).

For example in House Kurita, or DCMS they were known as Talon Sargents (for mechwarriors who didnt own their mechs) and Master Sargents (for those who did own their mechs) for a long time till Theodore Kurita restructured the DCMS ranks.

Every house had a very close system to this. Lance commanders are often LTs, Company commanders (3-4 Lances) are Captains, Battalion commanders (3-4 companies) Lt. Col. Regimental commanders (3-4 Battalions) COL.

The system is simple you dont want to over think it.

[Kobold]

The short version is it varies a bit, but in general you will either be looking at high ranking NCOs (Master Sergeants and the like) or low ranking officers, at minimum, depending on the military in question.

Look at pilots in the US military for examples. Every pilot in the US Air Force is an officer, period. However, US Army helicopter pilots are often NCOs. (A big point of contention is in drone warfare, where the air force only uses officers who have been through flight school to pilot drones, while the army will use enlisted folks... kind of riles up the air force guys)

[Elyam]

During training, mechwarrior recruits tend to be Privates with lance leaders being Corporals, then upon graduation, are officially various Sergeant ranks and on up the officer scale. But others above are correct, Mechwarrior itself is the more common title filling the role of feudal Knight. Here is a good reference: http://www.sarna.net.../Military_Ranks (you have to dig a bit into the rank hyperlinks to see the roles/responsibilities of each)

Edited by Elyam, 27 December 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Merky Merc]

Kobold, on 27 December 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

Every pilot in the US Air Force is an officer, period. However, US Army helicopter pilots are often NCOs.

Minor correction, but US Army helo pilots are often Warrant Officers. Which are not NCOs.

And I'm out.

[SixstringSamurai]

Merky Merc, on 27 December 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Minor correction, but US Army helo pilots are often Warrant Officers. Which are not NCOs.

And I'm out.

What he said. Never seen an NCO pilot in the army. Also we don't have drones we have UAVs which are short range and much much smaller then a drone.

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 27 December 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[Surtr]

http://www.sarna.net.../Military_Ranks

Go there. That gives rank equivalencies for all the factions in btech. Afaik, most common mech warriors are roughly corporal in rank. The logic for this is that in the FRR kungsarmé, corporals who pilot mechs are known as kavellrists, which roughly translates to cavalryman. I have yet to find evidence for the all pilots are sarges yet, but I haven't read everything. If in doubt just say mechwarrior.

[Kobold]

Warrant officers always confuse me, my bad.

In any case, I can't find the original article I read discussing the differences between the USAF and Army, but I did find something else that references it: http://dtlweb.au.af....S8yNDg5NA==.pdf

[Morang]

Thank you all for your answers.

I read elsewhere about USAF pilots currently being officers only, that's why I had thought about mechwarriors. As for their "knightly" position - AFAIK it largely declined by the 3039-3050 with Houses amassing regular armies and renewing battlemech production, as industry revived with Honors of War coming to existence. So by 3050 it seemed for me that mechwarrior of the House military should have proper military rank.

Yet I thought that keeping "knights" past in mind, mechwarriors would at least be warrant officers or even junior commisioned officers. Being NCO doesn't look so knightly (there were sergeants in feudal armies too coincidentaly, who were below the rank of a knight). I'm surprised about corporals piloting battlemechs (I looked on Sarna and it say that practice also exists in FWLM "occasionaly"). Looks like Kungsarme have either great trust to its enlisted men or great greed trying to save on payment grades. And warrant officers institution is not very prominent in the IS, with LCAF using it for technical personnel only and DCMS having two highest ranks of NCOs (who pilot battlemechs) with insignia resembling not that of other NCOs, but insignia of commisioned officers.

[Surtr]

The reason the kungsarmé is that way likely has to do with how young and somewhat inexperienced it is compared to the big militaries of the IS.

[Taemien]

Depends on the individual house.

In House Davion the rank could be Sergeant, Sergeant Major, Cadet, Subaltern, Leftenant, Captain, Major, Leftenant Colonel, or Colonel. The ranks go even higher with Leftenant General, Major General, General, Marshal, Field Marshal, and Marshal of the AFFS (or First Prince, though Yvonne did not hold this rank as she never served).

MechWarriors come straight out of the academies as a Sergeant and advance from there to Sergeant Major and then Leftenant.

Also a Leftenant usually commands a Lance (4 mechs) while a Captain commands a Company (3 lances), and a Major is usually an XO or CO of a Battalion. Regiments are commanded by a Colonel while a Regimental Combat Team is commanded by a Marshal.

I'm sure others can provide insight on other houses.

Edited by Taemien, 28 December 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[SixstringSamurai]

Kobold, on 28 December 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Warrant officers always confuse me, my bad.

In any case, I can't find the original article I read discussing the differences between the USAF and Army, but I did find something else that references it: http://dtlweb.au.af....S8yNDg5NA==.pdf

True however what isn't stated in that is that the Army flies small UAV type aircraft that consist of nothing more then a radio controlled plane with a camera on it. The largest of these was launched via catapult and was, in terms of space comparison, about half the size of a smart car. Every one of them I saw in operation were designed to essentially fall apart or "destruct" upon impact if a problem occurs. Now the Air Force on the other hand flies stuff like the Predator or larger. They were flying a couple of these larger aircraft out of Kandahar when I was there and they were basically full scale jets with computers where the cockpit was. One of these goes down and you usually have an international incident, one of the Army ones goes down and some platoons get tasked with trying to find it and recover as much as possible because usually no one notices them going down.

[Adridos]

Before the Sun-Tzu's reforms a mechwarior in the Capellan military had the rank of Subcommander.

[Escef]

Kobold, on 28 December 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Warrant officers always confuse me, my bad.

Warrants tend to confuse a lot of people. They are somewhere between officer and enlisted, and are usually well regarded by both. I've seen officers give orders to enlisted, but ask warrants to do things (compliance not automatically expected).

[LynxFury]

Quote

I've seen officers give orders to enlisted, but ask warrants to do things (compliance not automatically expected).

It's a matter of respect more than anything else. Compliance is absolutely expected, but also honest feedback--there's no conflict between them.

(24 year retired prior enlisted US Army officer,)

--
In the LCAF most mechwarriors are officers. The senior NCOs lead CO and lower sized tank, arty and infantry units as well as the gigantic support units just about all MWO games have ignored.

[Escef]

LynxFury, on 30 December 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

It's a matter of respect more than anything else. Compliance is absolutely expected, but also honest feedback--there's no conflict between them.

(24 year retired prior enlisted US Army officer,)

I overstated, more to the matter, the officer in question was bowing to the Warrant's experience. A fair number of officer's have trouble doing that even for senior NCOs.

[SixstringSamurai]

Escef, on 30 December 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

I overstated, more to the matter, the officer in question was bowing to the Warrant's experience. A fair number of officer's have trouble doing that even for senior NCOs.

That's what 100MPH tape, 550 chord, and shaving cream are for ....and an electric razor.....

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 30 December 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

I always thought FASA should have used fighter pilots as a guide for mechwarrior ranking. An O-1 or 2 as the base rank pilot.

However it seems that the armor tank platoon was used instead as a guide. That's why you get enlisted mechwarriors.

It really does not make sense to me why an enlisted ranking system would promote directly to an officer. Unless that individual soldier wanted to become an officer or they were offered the option of being promoted because of their ability.

Dose the U.S. Army have Sargents command tanks. Wanted to ask if I am mistaken.

[Escef]

SixStringSamurai, on 30 December 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

That's what 100MPH tape, 550 chord, and shaving cream are for ....and an electric razor.....

If only we could have done that to the The Ma'am when we deployed... Or better yet, left her stateside.

[Skylarr]

Quote

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trait TP.........Rank...........Enlisted (Non-Clan)..............................Officer (Non-Clan)..................Clan
+1.................E1...............Trainee......................................................Cadet.....................................None
+2.................E2...............Senior Trainee...........................................Cadet.....................................Point Second
+3.................E3...............Trooper.....................................................MechWarrior/Pilot.................Point Cmdr/MechWarrior/Pilot
+4.................E4/O1..........Squad Second.......................................Lance Leader......................Aerospace/Vehicle Point Cmdr
+5.................E5/O2..........Squad Second/MechWarrior/Pilot........Company Second................Star Commander
+6.................E6/O3..........Squad Leader........................................Company Commander.........Star Commander
+7.................E7/O4..........Platoon Second.....................................Battalion Commander...........Nova Commander
+8.................E8/O5..........Platoon Leader......................................Regimental Second..............Nova Commander.
+9.................E9/O6..........Lance Second.......................................Regimental Commander.......Trinary Commander
+10...............E10/O7........Battalion NCO........................................Brigade Commander............Supernova Commander
+11...............E11/O8.........Regiment NCO.......................................‘Mech Brigade Cmdr..............Cluster Commander
+12...............E12/O9........NCO of the Army*..................................Division Commander.............Galaxy Commander..
+13..............O10..............N/A........................................................Corps Commander ...................saKhan*
+14..............O11..............N/A........................................................Army Commander.......................Khan*
+15..............O12..............N/A........................................................House Lord*.................................ilKhan*
*These ranks are not attainable during character generation, but may be attained through advanced game play, if the gamemaster allows.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A character with the Rank Trait holds an official position in a military, paramilitary, police or intelligence organization. The TP score for this Trait indicates the level of authority the rank carries, with ranks identifi ed by the letter “E” reflecting enlisted ranks (E1, E2, E3 and so forth), and those noted by the letter “O” refl ecting officer ranks (O1, O2, O3 and so forth). Offi cer
ranks may not be selected by characters that have not also taken the Offi cer Skill Field.

Characters who are not part of a military, paramilitary, police or intelligence group do not ordinarily require a Rank Trait, though at the gamemaster’s option, a Rank Trait may be used to denote the character’s position in another workplace or political setting. A description of the common military ranks used by most of the factions in the BattleTech universe begins on p. 356, but for purposes of determining a ranked character’s level of overall authority, consult the General Rank Table.

Players whose characters hold rank through a Rank Trait may be technically in charge in the chain of command, but for the
best role-playing experience, gamemasters should temper the authority of the Rank Trait with appropriate responsibilities. For
example, a ranked character may have a superior offi cer of his own, who constantly checks his work in the name of discipline
and fairness; or perhaps the rank carries with it a ubiquitous paperwork requirement that keeps the ranked character chained
to his desk for more hours in a day than he’d prefer. (Additional suggestions appear under Political and Military Power, p. 349). A player may not increase his character’s Rank Trait by spending XP once game play has started. Instead, whether the character retains his rank, advances or suff ers demotion is entirely up to the character’s determination and the situations presented to him by the gamemaster. A character who is constantly successful in his career may advance quickly, while a character who loses battles or lacks discipline may get demoted. (Clan characters must requalify every year with a Trial of Position, proving the right to retain their rank through ritual combat.)

As with Wealth and Equipped, the Rank Trait refl ects the character’s present active-duty rank. If the character later leaves the organization or moves to a diff erent one that does not acknowledge the rank structure— such as moving into the civilian sector after military service—the character’s Rank Trait (and all authority and pay that go with it) may be forfeit, reducing this Trait to a value of 0 TPs. Rank Traits are identity-based and must be assigned to one of the character’s aliases if the character has an Alternate ID (see Alternate ID, p. 108). A character with multiple Rank Traits must distribute them among all
aliases as appropriate.

excerpt taken from A Time Of War pages 123 &124

The book A Time Of War gives a General Rank Table. Refer to the book A Time Of War: Companion for a more in depth list rank structures broken down by factions.

Edited by Skylarr, 01 January 2013 - 08:59 AM.