36 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Sargent, usually, or whatever rank entitles someone to command other troops, because that duty falls onto a mechwarrior's shoulders quite often.

[Skylarr]

I always pictured MechWarriors to be the equivalent of a Warrant Officer.

Quote

A warrant officer (WO) is an officer in a military organization who is designated an officer by a warrant, as distinguished from a commissioned officer who is designated an officer by a commission, or from non-commissioned officer who is designated an officer by virtue of seniority.
The rank was first used in the (then) English Royal Navy and is today used in many other countries, including the Commonwealth nations, and the United States. Outside the United States they are effectively senior non-commissioned officers with long military experience, although technically in a cadre of their own between non-commissioned officers and commissioned officers. Warrant officer is a rank between flight sergeant and pilot officer in the Royal Air Force. However, warrant officers in the United States are technical leaders and specialists, and chief warrant officers are commissioned by the president of the United States and take the same oath as regular commissioned officers. They may be technical experts with long service or direct entrants, notably for U.S. Army helicopter pilots.

United States

Main article: Warrant Officer (United States)
In the United States military, a warrant officer (grade W-1 to CW-5) is ranked as an officer above the senior-most enlisted ranks, as well as officer cadets and candidates, but below the officer grade of O-1 (NATO: OF-1). Warrant officers are highly skilled, single-track specialty officers, and while the ranks are authorized by Congress, each branch of the Uniformed Services selects, manages, and utilizes warrant officers in slightly different ways. For appointment to warrant officer one (W-1), a warrant is approved by the secretary of the respective service. Chief warrant officers (CW-2 to CW-5) are commissioned by the President of the United States and take the same oath as regular commissioned officers (O-1 to O-10).

Warrant officers can and do command detachments, units, activities, vessels, aircraft, and armored vehicles as well as lead, coach, train, and counsel subordinates. However, the warrant officer's primary task as a leader is to serve as a technical expert, providing valuable skills, guidance, and expertise to commanders and organizations in their particular field.

[Shepherd]

According to the old school Battletech rulebook, the sidebar on page 28, a lance is composed of a Lieutenant as Lance Commander, a Sergeant as a second in command, and two Privates to round out the lance. It also says that roughly 1/3 of all lances have an attached wing (pair) of aerospace fighters, bringing the total to 6 pilots and machines, but the book doesn't comment on the ranks of the airmen in those lances which have attached air wings.

Two regular lances and an air lance (three lances, 12 mechs) form a company, led by a Captain.

Three companies (36 mechs) make up a battalion, led by a Major or a senior Captain.

Three battalions (108 mechs) plus a Dropship transport section make up a Regiment, led by a Colonel.

[Pht]

Sounds familar shep.

I do believe that's correct!

[Ward Serpentine]

Kobold, on 27 December 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

Look at pilots in the US military for examples. Every pilot in the US Air Force is an officer, period. However, US Army helicopter pilots are often NCOs. (A big point of contention is in drone warfare, where the air force only uses officers who have been through flight school to pilot drones, while the army will use enlisted folks... kind of riles up the air force guys)

At least the zipper-suited sun gods aren't getting their digi-medals anymore

What, too soon?

[Scraper]

SixStringSamurai, on 27 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

What he said. Never seen an NCO pilot in the army. Also we don't have drones we have UAVs which are short range and much much smaller then a drone.

Current day that would be correct, but the Army and Army Air Corps/Air Force both had enlisted aviators. Some of them did some very amazing things. IMO the AF should treat RPV's like the Army does tanks, it would save a hell of a lot of cash vs those O grade pay checks Sorry, back to sci-fi robots

[Sparkymarkyp]

Morang, on 27 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Please let me know: what is the common military rank for ordinary mechwarrior in the Inner Sphere, at least in the militaries of the Successor States.

I't more or less clear for me that a lance, being equivalent to platoon, is led by leutenant at least, and battlemech company is commanded by captain. But when it comes down to ordinary mechwarriors composing a lance, I'm in trouble.

On the one hand, if lance is a platoon, individual mech is equivalent to a squad or a crew. Tank crews (and infantry squads, but that's less relevant) are often led by NCOs. And when compared to them, mechwarrior is not even in charge of his crew/squad members, he has no subordinates.

On the other hand, I assume that mechwarrior is difficult and advanced military profession, requiring time, effort and money to learn, and graduated mechwarrior is a valuable asset. And both from fluff and common sense it looks like there's clear distinction between combat and support personnel in battlemech troops (that distinction blurred in poorest mercenary commands who can't afford enough dedicated techs). "Every marine or paratrooper is a rifleman", but not every serviceman in battlemech regiment is a mechwarrior. Even tank troops in WWII, as far as I know, crews largely serviced their vehicles themselves, with technology being not too advanced and tank crew numerous enough to perform this duty. Things were different in aviation. Enormous strain of air combat and skills needed for this (or furnace of a battlemech cockpit?), single crew of the fighter (corresponds to battlemech as well) and more advanced machinery (this too) almost in every military led to clear distinction between flying and service personnel.

So with mechwarrior having valuable and difficult to obtain skills and distinct in his duties from support personnel, and battlemech regiment having finite number of mechs for combat personnel only, only sane way of promotion is becoming a lance leader, then company commander while continuing to use his skill on the battlefield, and only then, probably, proceed to battalion staff position (or maybe vice versa - battallion staff, then company command). It looks like junior officer is more appropriate rank for mechwarrior. Or maybe warrant officer? I can only guess - 2nd leutenant, ensign or something else.

But these are my thoughts. What fluff tells about mechwarriors' ranks in the IS militaries - AFFS, DCMS. FWLM etc?

Its easy to get confused - every house or merc company has their different rank systems and its been further confused by various BT writers who have done there own slant on things.

ive seen some mechwarriors being refered to as holding the rank of Private but they were not rooks - i find it hard to beleive that a mechwarrior private is given the same paygrade or privilages as a Private in the light infantry.

Its more like the modern military system where pilots are more often then not officers where as tank commanders (which a mechwarrior is albeit not in command of a crew) is a senior NCO i.e. a sergeant.

Should be noted that there were NCO ranks in WW2 who flew planes though - - just to further complicate the thread

Edited by Sparkymarkyp, 28 April 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Joker Two]

In the AFFS/AFFC, Academy graduates are Sergeants, while March Militia 'Mechwarriors enter as Corporals, but soon make Sergeant.

In the DCMS, 'Mechwarriors who own their 'Mechs are Kashira (Talon Sergeants), while those who do not are Shujin (Master Sergeants). However, Shujin were referred to as "'Mechwarriors" until Theodore's reforms.

In the pre-Federated Commonwealth LCAF, 'Mechwarriors were Leutnants, but often were addressed as "'Mechwarrior." In the LAAF and the current LCAF, Academy graduates are Sergeants, while Militia 'Mechwarriors enter as Corporals, but soon make Sergeant, in the same manner as the AFFC.

In the FWLM, 'Mechwarriors are Corporals, although they are simply addressed as "'Mechwarrior." Members of provincial units sometimes have different titles of equivalent rank, although this practice was outlawed by Thomas Marik in 3046.

In the original CCAF, 'Mechwarriors are Subcommanders, the most junior officer rank, although Force Leaders and Assistant Force Leaders (the most senior NCOs) receive Battlemech training if they are in 'Mech regiments. After Xin Sheng, 'Mechwarriors are Sao-wei (Lieutenants). Warrior Houses also refer to 'Mechwarriors as Ban-zhang or Janshi. These ranks are similar in meaning to Sergeant and Corporal, respectively, but are accorded much higher status because of their Warrior House training.




EDIT: All information is from the House sourcebook most relevant to the time period and faction.

Edited by Joker Two, 28 April 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[Ward Serpentine]

Depends on the unit, house, and affiliation. On the TT game, we were a merc unit with House Davion. Our company consisted of four 3 mech lances instead of the usual three 4 mech lances. As a Sergeant, I was in charge of one of the lances.

[Skylarr]

Ward Serpentine, on 28 April 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Depends on the unit, house, and affiliation. On the TT game, we were a merc unit with House Davion. Our company consisted of four 3 mech lances instead of the usual three 4 mech lances. As a Sergeant, I was in charge of one of the lances.

Ward Serpentine is correct. Refer to the Source books. If you do not the source you can try to research the info on Sarna.

If you cannot find the info you need just ask here and i am sure someone will know were to find it.

Edited by Skylarr, 28 April 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Khanahar]

Here's a fun bit of BT rank trivia:

The logo of the games MechCommander and MechCommander 2 were based on the insignia for a Kommandant, or Major in the LCAF/AFFC.

It is reportedly the rank assigned to battalion level commanders, except for elite company commands, as presumably is the case in the game. (Although in MC2 the player is actually a mercenary who fights for 3 houses over the course of the campaign.)

Edit:
To complicate things somewhat, just found a graphic on Sarna for AFFC ranks, but it differs from the other list in replacing the Kommandant/Major rank with a rank of Commander, with the same insignia:
http://www.sarna.net...-ranks-3054.png

Edit 2:
Watched the MC1 intro. The company commanders (A-D) are wearing Kommandant/Major/Commander pips resembling the MC logo on their collar. Typically Majors command 'mech battalions.

Their commanding officer, in charge of the battalion, is referred to in dialogue as "Colonel" and her rank insignia suggests she is a full COL, again, a post usually reserved for command of regiments.

Is there lore support for the 1st Davion Guards 'mech officers being overranked?

Edited by Khanahar, 14 May 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

It could simply be a minor mistake in the script or prop department, or even a budget issue. It is more expensive to create a whole set of different insignia than to order a single design in bulk.
Did anyone notice how every single Imperial officer in "Return of the Jedi" wears the rank insignia of a Captain? Reportedly, all the others were lost or never made due to a mistake in the costume department. *shrug*

As for MechWarrior ranks ... from everything I've read, and as has already been said here, the common rank for your freshly graduated greenhorn MechWarrior seems to be a Sergeant, reminiscent of real world customs concerning tank commanders, although it does depend on faction.

The A Time of War companion has "Rank Equivalency Tables" and detailed faction-specific charts which provide an excellent overview on the various militaries' hierarchy:

• AFFS/AFFC: E-7 MechWarrior Sergeant
  
• CCAF: E-7 Lance Sergeant
  
• DCMS: O-0 Busosenshi, socially subdivided into Shujin (commoner) and Kashira (noble)*
  
• FWLM: E-7 Staff Sergeant
  
• LCAF: E-5 Sergeant (freshly graduated) or E-7 Staff Sergeant (after 5 years of service)
  
• FRR: E-5 Kavellrist

term translation:
Busosenshi: MechWarrior
Shujin: Staff Sergeant
Kashira: Talon Sergeant
Kavellrist: Cavalryman

*: Further remark on the DCMS: Both the Shujin and the Kashira are O-0 MechWarriors of equal rank and privileges, but the excessive influence of samurai culture and nobility on the military has led to the development of these two sub-ranks, both of which have a unique rank insignia: a lavender katakana "5" on red, and a blue katakana "1" on red. This creates an officially non-existent gap between the two ranks, as lavender katakana are technically of the NCO tier, whereas blue katakana are already officers.
It is of note that this distinction between commoner and noble exists solely amongst MechWarriors and not within the infantry, armor divisions, aerospace or navy units. Although technically of equal rank, it is expected that a Shujin will respect a Kashira's superior status. This remarkable difference between commoner and noble does not extend beyond the entry rank of the O-0 MechWarrior; once promoted to Tai-i (Lieutenant), there is no more difference (visually, at least - in practice, status gained from heritage, experience and even unit affiliation still translate to a set of unwritten rules regarding one's conduct).
MechWarriors of common origin remain a rarity amongst DCMS MechWarriors, as they have a much harder time finding sponsorship for academy admission. However, commoners who possess their own BattleMech are also eligible for the rank of Kashira.


PS: Damn, now I want a MechCommander 3...

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 14 May 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Khanahar]

Kyone Akashi, on 14 May 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

PS: Damn, now I want a MechCommander 3...

What I wouldn't do...

Totally definitely haven't daydreamed about how exactly you would make it a strong puzzling campaign game that could be either single or multiplayer.

[Kyone Akashi]

Khanahar, on 27 May 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Totally definitely haven't daydreamed about how exactly you would make it a strong puzzling campaign game that could be either single or multiplayer.

Co-Op MC3?

That'd be neat. Up to three players, everybody controls a lance.
Throw in a couple RPG features about how every player gets to create their custom lance leader character, improving them over the course of the campaign and perhaps even beyond! You get to use the same character in single-player as well as in versus. For the sake of fairness/balancing, you "unlock" new skills and 'Mechs over the course of just playing the game, but multiplayer games would involve predefined pools of points that are always equal for every player, and which you could spend on slotting the options you have already unlocked. Same for the other pilots in your unit, of course. Some of whom have to be unlocked via story missions, whereas for others you may just need a certain level of prestige.

... damn, now you infected me.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 28 May 2013 - 04:33 AM.

[Khanahar]

Kyone Akashi, on 28 May 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

Co-Op MC3?

That'd be neat. Up to three players, everybody controls a lance.
Throw in a couple RPG features about how every player gets to create their custom lance leader character, improving them over the course of the campaign and perhaps even beyond! You get to use the same character in single-player as well as in versus. For the sake of fairness/balancing, you "unlock" new skills and 'Mechs over the course of just playing the game, but multiplayer games would involve predefined pools of points that are always equal for every player, and which you could spend on slotting the options you have already unlocked. Same for the other pilots in your unit, of course. Some of whom have to be unlocked via story missions, whereas for others you may just need a certain level of prestige.

... damn, now you infected me.

Lol. Yep. Except with today's technology, each of those "Lance" commanders could also be Company commanders, meaning that a full engagement would be battalion level. Which would be incredibly awesome. (Of course, smaller-scale missions are cool too, but the original MC limited you to single lance occasionally, and MC2 did almost all the time. So why not?) Adding in Infantry and player-useful vehicles would be great too.

And hopefully versus would include some of the same things that made single player and would make mutliplayer great... instead of KotH and Deathmatch, militarily realistic scenarios like:
Facility Capture/Attack/Defense
Bridge destruction/protection
Generator destruction as necessary prep for base attack
Convoy attack/defense
Outnumbered force against scattered force
Outnumbered force tries to hold out for evac
Outnumbered force tries to prevent union of split enemy
etc.

My vote for factions would be 3 base factions, each with 2 sub-factions at release, 1-2 more added in expansions:
CLAN: Wolf, Falcon, (Jaguar, Bear)
FEDCOM: Davion, Steiner, (Mercs, ...)
SPHERE: Kurita, Liao, (Marik, FRR)

So for native 'mechs, each faction would have like 2 shared with others in super-faction, and 3 or so unique. Support assets would generally be consistent within super-faction, but each House would have a few unique things. Generally speaking, FedCom would be slower and steadier, Kurita/Liao would be more mobile (in different ways; Liao mobile because they don't really do slow 'mechs, Kurita mobile because of massed (Grand) Dragon lances), and the Clans would be exceptionally mobile, at the cost of vehicle/support assets (Falcon more like Liao in terms of speed consistency, Wolf more like Kurita with variable speeds but the ability to field very fast and tough stars).

For campaign, a single player and co-op campaign, but the single player can be co-op with lance commanders and the coop could be (but shouldn't be) single player. Versus mode in random scenarios,

For versus mode, random scenarios, but also a "Conquest" mode where you play over a small continent, receiving each lance by dropship at the 0,5,10 minute marks, and try to capture assets that give you vehicle, infantry, information, repair facilities, etc. with the eventual aim of breaching the enemy Starport.


Of course, this should really have its own thread.

[ValdnadHartagga]

I too have generally seen that rank-and-file MechWarriors are sergeants (or equivalent House rank). You have to remember that, like as with an aircraft, every 'Mech unit has support staff (if you're lucky/noble, each 'Mech has its own team, like a knight's squires), so it would make sense that some kind of command status would be requisite.

[Nebfer]

As been stated Most Hosues run their "Mechwarriors" as NCOs. While in real life they would likely follow along the lines of Most Airforces, that being officers. Though historicly Many Airforces have used NCOs as pilots. The Germans in WW2 used them (one even had 121 kills to their credit), as did the USN.