317 replies to this topic

[KuruptU4Fun]

If you make ECM available to all mechs then it becomes a requirement that you use it to be competitive. Which means there's no need to play at all.

[Orzorn]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

If you make ECM available to all mechs then it becomes a requirement that you use it to be competitive. Which means there's no need to play at all.

• It's already a requirement to be competitive for the most part.
  
• It would not be a requirement if the equipment was toned down and more balanced.

If ECM was made more like its TT versions, even if it did have a few extras still there (such as making missile lock on times longer or something), I don't believe it would be a requirement, since it would not longer cloak you like it does, and it wouldn't shut down TAG or SSRMs. It would be a specific niche used to counteract other niche items like BAP and Artemis. Of course, with a buffed BAP and NARC, we'd see those used more, meaning ECM would still be useful despite its reduction in power (as well as perhaps providing ghost signatures and what not).

Regardless, I don't really care about availability right now. I just want the items to be balanced. ECM needs a severe reduction in capabilities, while BAP needs some added, as well as NARC. A wider variety of equipment to use will be healthier for the game overall, because almost everybody can find SOME use for NARC, TAG, Artemis, BAP, or ECM in one build or the other. Currently, only TAG, Artemis, and ECM see any real use, and Artemis much less so because of ECM's effect on it. Even TAG isn't that often seen just because of its wishy-washy interaction with ECM. Is it a counter or not, PGI?

What it comes down to is that the game will actually be more balanced when they actually...you know, BALANCE the darned thing, instead of slapping a really strange and powerful assortment of capabilities on a single equipment while totally ignoring the others and only giving a single item, that is still partially countered when in range of ECM, some additional range to "compensate".

I really have no idea what was running through PGI's collective heads when they stated out ECM, but it seems like they forgot that missiles and 4 other pieces of equipment existed that people actually wanted to use.

[KuruptU4Fun]

There are quite a few matches in PuG's that the ECM mechs don't come out on top. So far I'm liking where that is going and hope to see ECM fade into some what of an obscurity. But if ECM is going to stay the way it is then fine. Just make changes to 8v8's so that teams without anything but ECM mechs can compete.

[Trauglodyte]

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

ECM is (currently) limited to 4 mech variants: 2 light mechs, 1 medium (that thinks its a light), and an assault.

Beagle is available to all mechs.


Is it just me, or does this seem backwards?

To my thinking, Beagle is something for scouts. I'd make it available to all light mechs, and Cicadas (which are confused, and should probably start seeing psychiatrists).

And I'd make ECM available to any mech -- though I'd first nerf it down to something much closer to TT.

Maybe I'm just weird.

The kicker is that TAG right now is being used by every LRM boat worth its salt. And BAP is going to be quickly behind it if PGI ever gets around to buffing it because you waste 1.5 tons (nothing in most cases) for 1.67x the benefits of the Sensor module.

You're right, though, BAP needs to be limited to the light/med scouts on where the D-DC will gain from the benefit of the Command thingy.

[ltwally]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

If you make ECM available to all mechs then it becomes a requirement that you use it to be competitive. Which means there's no need to play at all.

I'll quote what I said, verbatim. Please read it, verbatim:

Quote

And I'd make ECM available to any mech -- though I'd first nerf it down to something much closer to TT.

So, no ECM would not be required to be competitive for all mechs, or most any mechs, were it to be brought back down to TT level.

At that point, it rejoins the list of speciality equipment -- it's no longer pure awesome, and its value is conditional; If there are no other mechs carrying Artemis, Beagle or Narc, then it isn't worth much (or anything).

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

There are quite a few matches in PuG's that the ECM mechs don't come out on top. So far I'm liking where that is going and hope to see ECM fade into some what of an obscurity. But if ECM is going to stay the way it is then fine. Just make changes to 8v8's so that teams without anything but ECM mechs can compete.

That's what all the anti-ECM threads are about: nerfing ECM back down to sane values so that a single 1.5 tonne piece of equipment isn't ruling the battlefield.

[ltwally]

Trauglodyte, on 30 December 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

The kicker is that TAG right now is being used by every LRM boat worth its salt. ...
...

LRM boats don't have much of a choice. But requiring TAG just so your LRMs aren't wasted tonnage, because of ECM's presence, is just about as dumb a decision as I've ever seen.

First we have somewhat over-powered S-SRM (which are currently only really bad in StreakCats), so PGI says, "let's make ECM kill Streaks!".

Then we have LRMs and S-SRMs totally worthless due to a 1.5 tonne toy, so PGI says, "let's up the range on TAG, and all the missile boats will have to use it to get past ECM!"

So now we have a situation where in order for LRMs to hit, the LRM boat has to constantly be hitting a light mech (which is probably traveling at high speed all over the battlefield) with TAG in order to keep lock.

LRMs are now direct-fire weapons, and really really slow ones at that.

Thinking about it makes me want to go into a Lewis Black style rage.

[DocBach]

Yeah, the TAG "fix" pretty much killed the spotter mechanic. We now have LRM boats that TAG for themselves standing in the open, usually because they are in an ECM bubble, so they can stand without worrying about any sort of counter-battery fire.

[KuruptU4Fun]

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

I'll quote what I said, verbatim. Please read it, verbatim:

So, no ECM would not be required to be competitive for all mechs, or most any mechs, were it to be brought back down to TT level.

I see your point, but the gen pop players PGI is trying to get don't know Battletech or the TT rules. One thing will happen, word will spread here and thru in-game chat, then ECM will be everywhere and then it will never leave.

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

At that point, it rejoins the list of speciality equipment -- it's no longer pure awesome, and its value is conditional; If there are no other mechs carrying Artemis, Beagle or Narc, then it isn't worth much (or anything).

ECM has obsoleted specialty equipment already, so which is the better master to serve? Improve the obsolete or nerf the overwhelming?

ltwally, on 30 December 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

That's what all the anti-ECM threads are about: nerfing ECM back down to sane values so that a single 1.5 tonne piece of equipment isn't ruling the battlefield.

But the question arises, if Garth sees our point and agrees to look into it. What do we as an educated community suggest? Make NARC/ BAP work as they should and remove the "Streak Block" ECM feature completely?

[Trauglodyte]

DocBach, on 30 December 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Yeah, the TAG "fix" pretty much killed the spotter mechanic. We now have LRM boats that TAG for themselves standing in the open, usually because they are in an ECM bubble, so they can stand without worrying about any sort of counter-battery fire.

This frustrates me to no end. TAG is supposed to be used by spotters. With the improved range, its only really used by the LRM users so that they can get around ECM. I feel like we're chopping off someone's head to cure the cancer.

[Orzorn]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

ECM has obsoleted specialty equipment already, so which is the better master to serve? Improve the obsolete or nerf the overwhelming?

Both.

It isn't just about ECM obsoleting already niche and bad equipment, its also about ECM causing huge issues with LRMs, SSRMs, and TAG that is an entirely separate issue. ECM basically makes SSRMs exclusive to the ECM carrying mech, because if you take SSRMs its a crapshoot of whether you'll be able to use them, unless you also mount TAG, which is not an option for some mechs nor is it healthy for the mechlab. Instead, we get partially countered TAG that is now put on the launcher rather than the spotter, killing the scouting metagame.

Quote

But the question arises, if Garth sees our point and agrees to look into it. What do we as an educated community suggest? Make NARC/ BAP work as they should and remove the "Streak Block" ECM feature completely?

Yes, and also remove ECM's blocking of TAG when within the bubble.

I'd prefer they also remove its ability to cloak you on the radar so that missiles would be unaffected, but if they were unwilling to do that, like we just said, at least let TAG be usable no matter where you are in or out of the bubble and also let SSRMs lock on. That would go a long way.

If they DID let missiles be totally unaffected by ECM, I think TAG should be nerfed back to its 450 range. The range increase was a bad bandaid to a huge gaping wound.

Edited by Orzorn, 30 December 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

I agree with Traug, TAG is designed to be the laser designators for a weapon mounted out of LOS. Not the laser sight mounted on a sniper rifle.

[KuruptU4Fun]

So how do (currently reading I assume) Trauglodyte; you and myself (and others who wish to attack the problem with suggestions) create the tools needed to reign in ECM and take niche tools and improve them to be valuable in the metagame?

[Orzorn]

Oh, and forgive me if what I'm saying sounds like I'm blowing ECM out of proportion. I play almost exclusively 8 mans these days, so ECM appears very often and has a rather large impact due to that. For most of a game, you are inside of an ECM bubble, and because of that you notice its effects (both direct and indirect) more.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Is it more effective to move TAG and NARC into something like an AMS slot (Complete with the missiles or a battery for ammo)?

[DocBach]

I think TAG and NARC are fine being included as lasers and missiles. Perhaps, though, Beagle and ECM should fit their own Electronic Warfare hard point - some 'Mechs like the Raven would include multiple hard points so they could carry both Beagle or ECM, others might just carry one so they could carry one or the other.

Of course though, ECM would need to be toned down and Beagle given some sort of boosts for anybody to want to take Beagle. I think 360 degree radar through cover and concealment might be worth the critical and 1.5 tons for a spotter if they ever remove the cloaking device out of ECM and you might even see some team players prefer taking it over an ECM suite.

[Orzorn]

KuruptU4Fun, on 30 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

So how do (currently reading I assume) Trauglodyte; you and myself (and others who wish to attack the problem with suggestions) create the tools needed to reign in ECM and take niche tools and improve them to be valuable in the metagame?

If we were to do the very least to items, I think it would be this:
Allow NARC to broadcast the enemy as though it had someone locked on to it, even if there is no one in LOS. This means missiles could be locked and fired indirectly. At 20 seconds of broadcast, landing a NARC with a launcher in a good position could be devastating. I think for a weapon that gets countered by ECM, weighs 4 tons for the system, and can miss, this is a pretty good thing. Also, its how they worked in TT anyways.

Allow BAP to see in a 360 degree radius within its 120 meter bubble. Also allow it to detect enemies without LOS within the bubble. I think this is good for scouts, because currently BAP is more useful for missile users (increased lock on range, increased lock on speed, locking on to shut down mechs) more so than it is for scouts (who only really benefit from the lock on range, unless they also use SSRMs). Also, once again, this is how it worked in the TT, so that is a bonus. Also allow BAP to see ECM on the map when within the range of the bubble. In this manner, BAP is a sort of soft counter (but not in the literal sense that it stops the item, but in the tactics sense that it allows you to see it and play off of that).

Remove ECM's blocking of SSRMs for the previously mentioned reasons. Remove its blocking of TAG. MAYBE remove its radar cloak. I personally believe it shouldn't have it because I think, for the most part, missiles were fine (should have .1 damage reduced from them, at least in my opinion) and ECM devalues AMS if its going to counter missiles so strongly. The cloak also nullifies BAP before BAP even gets within ECM's range! The fact of the matter is that if ECM keeps its cloak, BAP will remain relatively useless.

What ECM would do, however, is still block Artemis, still block data transfer that would cross through the bubble (C3, essentially), still block NARC, and still block BAP. Also, it should be able to generate a ghost signiture by opening the minimap and right clicking (as opposed to left clicking, which is used for commander actions). A team heavy on ECM would be wasteful in some aspects (you can only shut down equipment once, after that its sort of useless), but would gain great strength in being able to drop several ghost signatures on the minimap.

Edited by Orzorn, 30 December 2012 - 08:59 PM.

[DocBach]

Orzorn, on 30 December 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Remove ECM's blocking of SSRMs for the previously mentioned reasons. Remove its blocking of TAG. MAYBE remove its radar cloak. I personally believe it shouldn't have it because I think, for the most part, missiles were fine (should have .1 damage reduced from them, at least in my opinion) and ECM devalues AMS if its going to counter missiles so strongly.

I believe ECM should counter TAG's ability for your team mates if you are in the bubble - it should still work for your missiles, but since your information transmissions are being scrambled by TAG, you wouldn't be able to send that target data out to friendlies.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Personally I think that if NARC is going to only work for 20 seconds, then it should work despite ECM for that time.

Any Artemis buffs are negated when an ECM field is involved in any situation.

ECM should negate C3 communication completely. I.E. Static should be broadcast over all volumes in-game.

Within the bubble TAG should only paint the target, it should not give target info to anything outside that bubble.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 30 December 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[Blue Shadow]

Great post OP. It all looks good to me, big changes from what we have now, but electronic warfare should have been wore like those TT rules to begin with.....

[Felix]

PGI, hire this man immediately!