28 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

Hi, friends.
I'm a little thoughtful about buying my first assault here in mwo.
I play since mw2, and I've always loved medium mechs, and a few fast heavy, through out mw2-mw3-mw4... the only assault I remember to have enjoyed was a laser sunder in mw4.
After having mastered quite all medium, and my summoner, I'd would like to give a try.
But I'm undecided. It will be a Victor or a Battlemaster.

1) Victor has a good shape, has speed and maneuverability, althogh it has been nerfed.
But looking at the hardpoints of the 3 victors, I cannot imagine other than an medium/short range brawler. They are all very similar or am I wrong?

2) Battlemaster hasn't a good shape, but still has speed and maneuverability, althogh no JJ.
Very easy to hit. I don't like very much its torso shape, veru very big, and I think it's quite a suicide to put an xl engine in it.
But looking at the hardpoints I can imagine different roles in the battlefield.
There is a lrm boat, an energy bases boat, a brawler. It's more enjoyable to master chassis with different roles. While Victor, as said, I can see only one.

What do you think about this?
I need suggestion, and a decisive idea.

Thanks!

[LiGhtningFF13]

I prefer the Victor, nice balance of speed and armament! When fully skilled (skill tree) it's a deadly weapon. I personally run a Victor B/K/S and the Dragon Slayer. All of them with a mix of ACs (10/20) and PPCs(Er/normal). Don't forget the equip jump jets on that thing!

[Modo44]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 August 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

1) Victor has a good shape, has speed and maneuverability, althogh it has been nerfed.
But looking at the hardpoints of the 3 victors, I cannot imagine other than an medium/short range brawler. They are all very similar or am I wrong?

Apart from AC20-based brawler builds, the 9B an 9S can use various dual (U)AC5 with dual LL/PPC combinations for some jump-sniping and sustained firepower at medium/long ranges. The 9K can be used as a sniper with Gauss+2xPPC (one ERPPC if you strip it bare for heatsinks). The last one is a very strong setup, competing very closely with the Dragon Slayer (which uses the same sniper build, or 2xAC5+2xPPC). All of those still work very well despite a series of nerfs.

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 August 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

2) Battlemaster hasn't a good shape, but still has speed and maneuverability, althogh no JJ.

The trouble is with huge sides that make it not very XL-friendly. You end up with very limited weapons (take a heavy), very bad tanking ability (take a Stalker), or Stalker-like speed (take a Stalker, again). There are some fun builds for the Battlemaster, but none very strong.

[Ltd McQuarrie]

I also pilot the Victor, nice reliable Mech! Very fast and maneuverable combined with good fire power.

[Escef]

I love the Battlemasters, but I cannot recommend them for your first assaults.

[STEF_]

It seems like a plebiscite in Victor's favour....

[Tiamat of the Sea]

If you have the opportunity, I would say to take both, but start with the BLR.

Hear me out here.

The Battlemaster offers a variety of hardpoint setups, making it good practice for taking various weapons on an Assault-weight 'mech. It also has better turning and agility than the Victor with the sole exception of the Victor's ability to jump, as the Victor has a number of negative quirks on its turning and twisting (and I think on its arm movement also). Like the Victor, it is also capable of very high engine caps.

That said, the Victor is currently pretty much the better of the jumping Assaults, since the Highlander not only has a smaller maximum number of jump jets, but also has heavier jump jets and comes out moving much, much more slowly. The fact that all the Victors have roughly the same hardpoints doesn't preclude using them differently- the left torso missile mounts can be used for small-tubecount LRM barraging to eat AMS ammo and hit light 'mechs more easily just like a Clan LRM rack, for instance. Ballistics come in both long and short ranges between the light autocannon, heavy autocannon, and gauss, and there's always the LB-X for critstomping something you've torn open. And in lasers, both Pulse and ER give you variety, or there are PPCs for the FLD long range punch.

The Battlemaster makes for a much better training 'mech for using Assaults, though. It's not got the agility penalties of the Victor, but it's got the easier-to-hit hitboxes that are more characteristic of an Assault 'mech. It also generally has a large number of hardpoints, making it a good stepping stone towards the All Teh Gun (a.k.a. Stalker), and it possesses low-slung arm hardpoints which make good practice for Atlases and Highlanders.

The barrel chest does make it very difficult to dodge incoming fire, but as anyone with an XL-engine Thud can tell you, properly learning to roll your torso when taking damage can let you survive remarkably well anyhow. As an additional note, the shoulder hardpoints (especially the energy ones) on the Battlemaster are really, really nice for shooting over hills and smaller 'mechs in ways that the Victor, Highlander, and Atlas can't do with most of their energy or ballistic mounts.

I've run a number of different loadouts in Battlemasters, and they're very versatile- while they aren't amazing at much, they make fairly good hill-humper/snipers and with a standard engine are pretty nice brawlers as well.

Things to try with a Battlemaster:

• The BLR-1D can do a triple-ballistic left arm- so there's always the classic AC/5-AC/2-AC/2 combo for long-range fire. The low mount is a bit inconvenient for this, but it can be done and a lot of people prefer it.
  
• The BLR-1D's left arm also makes an excellent 'Shattercannon'- give it an LB10-X and two machine guns and throw ER Large Lasers or PPCs elsewhere on the machine and then you can rip something open at range and utterly ruin its components close up.
  
• The BLR-1G has lots and lots of energy hardpoints, and the third slot in either side torso is especially high-mounted (even with the cockpit, instead of just downwards of its level). If you can keep your weapons in order, MLas/MLas/PPC combos in the shoulders let you snipe nicely over hills and such, and that still leaves you weight for a small autocannon on the left arm or possibly a missile rack for supplementary long-range damage.
  
• If you can stand the risk, throwing an XL engine in with that can get you a pretty quick-moving sniper for its tonnage, and then you can afford to also heavily beweapon the arms- given the PPC sniping, an LB10-X may be a good idea, or a Large Pulse Laser in the right hand.
  
• The BLR-1S has lots of missile tubes. This makes it an excellent LRM caddy, as many people use it for. The additional four energy hardpoints let you keep much more short-range firepower than most missile caddies not named 'Stalker' as well, which is handy. When doing this, consider an XL engine since you're going to be trying to stay out of direct line of sight and the speed may be more important than the durability.
  
• My preferred BLR-1S uses only two LRM racks- the shoulder racks are both SRM-6's. This makes it much more of a brawler, and it's got good enough torso twist to work properly that way too. Just be aware that Light 'mechs are going to be too low for your shoulder weapons, so you can't afford to stray from your shorter allies.
  
• The BLR-3M has the ballistic option of the 1D and 1G- although only a single hardpoint- but with a lot more energy mounts to back it up. This and the fact that the ballistic is arm-mounted makes it a really favorable chassis to put an AC/10 and medium lasers on, especially since the third energy hard point in either side torso is, again, a high mount. Consider a pair of mediums and an ER Large in either shoulder.
  
• The 3M also has dual energy mounts in the right arm- my preference is to put two PPCs here and an LB 10-X on the left arm and fire them all together- the PPCs strip armor and their projectiles are just fast enough to beat the autocannon fire there, leaving the internals exposed to the high-crit pellets.
  
• The 3S is, unfortunately, the Baddlemaster. Its peculiar combination of hardpoints (including only a single missile point on the arm, rather than having both on arms) makes it virtually impossible to have a proper unity of purpose for this variant. Most of the things it can do, some other variant will do better. Fortunately, it's one of five variants, so you don't have to use it if you don't want to. If you really want to use it, I recommend a large SRM rack for the arm mount, and then investing a lot of tonnage in making this one a BattleFaster and using low-weight weapons.

The Victors favor slightly different tricks.

• For all Victors- use jump jets. If you're not mounting at least two jump jets for crossing rough terrain, then you have no reason to use any Victor other than the 9B and should instead be grabbing a Battlemaster or Highlander- the mobility penalties on all Victors are quite nasty, and the Battlemasters are almost equally fast while the Highlanders are much more durable.
  
• The VTR-9B is The One With The AC/20. No other Victor can mount an AC/20. Unfortunately, this costs you a lower arm actuator and thus some arm movement range. Still, it's hard to argue with the power of BANG.
  
• Also, the VTR-9B has three ballistic hardpoints in that arm, so if you want to mount AC/5 AC/5 AC/2, you can do that also. Or AC/10 AC/2 AC/2. Or triple AC/2. Consider playing around with that, at extended range the agility penalties on the Victor matter a lot less.
  
• The 9K has only one ballistic hardpoint on the right arm, but that leaves it suitable for some form of AC/10 or Gauss loadout. This is balanced out by a triple energy mount on the left arm- if you want a lot of medium lasers on your Victor, go here.
  
• At the same time, that triple-energy arm can mount two PPCs and a Large Pulse if you feel like going for a PPC/PPC/AC/5 (or AC/2) combination to try and get off a long-range high-damage shot and still having a heavy weapon for close combat.
  
• The 9S Victor has three missile hardpoints in the torso and the arms are each two hardpoints. If there's a Victor to give a heavy barrage of SRMs to, this is it, which can allow you to make the arm weapons long-range stuff- ER Large Lasers, PPCs, small-weight autocannons.
  
• Alternately, you can use those tubes to do some ridiculous things with LRMs- the third missile hardpoint is two tubes. If you really want to annoy people with barrages and cockpit shake (or just eat all their AMS ammo nom nom nom) you can set up the missile tubes with a 5/5/20 combo- as long as the LRM-20 is third on the list, it'll come out in ten sets of two missiles, setting off 'incoming missile' alarms and aggravating enemy pilots all day.

As you surmised, the variety of options for Victors is smaller- but that doesn't make them worse. I'd consider the Battlemaster a better 'first Assault 'mech' for most pilots, though.

The Battlemaster is better for introducing you to Assault 'mech use, but if you're looking for something that has favorable hitboxes and is easier to get up to the speed of a Heavy 'mech, then you probably should go with the Victor- just keep in mind that it turns like a morbidly obese cow (and after Eliting it turns like a slightly quick cow).

[STEF_]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 07 August 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

If you have the opportunity, I would say to take both, but start with the BLR.

Hear me out here.

........

The Battlemaster is better for introducing you to Assault 'mech use, but if you're looking for something that has favorable hitboxes and is easier to get up to the speed of a Heavy 'mech, then you probably should go with the Victor- just keep in mind that it turns like a morbidly obese cow (and after Eliting it turns like a slightly quick cow).

Huge and awesome post!
Thanks a lot!
I was thinking the same things, "playing" with smurfy, and piloting the only Victor (C) standard.
I also tried the highlander but I didn't like it. Using quite always medium mechs, I need maneuverability.
I'm still undecided.
You have mastered both chassis I guess.
I was thinking that starting with a BMS-1S , I would get the C-bill for buying the other 2 (for mastering them); or is a wrong idea?
Or is Victor easier to master because it's easier to use?

[Modo44]

The Victor is stronger. You do not have the new player "oh, I can not aim with arm-mounted weapons" issue, which is what holds most new Victor pilots back. The issue will be cost, as XL340 or so is really needed for full mobility (torso twist speed). (The stock STD320 engine is just about OK for a brawler setup, but the really strong builds rely on XL engines.)

Edited by Modo44, 07 August 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 August 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Or is Victor easier to master because it's easier to use?

Stefka,

Good to see you started your own thread on this topic. I'm sure you'll get lot's of differing opinions.

Like I said over in my thread, I prefer the Victor over the Atlas, but no experience with the BattleMaster. The Victor will translate better for you coming from being a medium pilot like myself.

Jody

[Koniving]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 August 2014 - 02:00 AM, said:

What do you think about this?
I need suggestion, and a decisive idea.

Thanks!

Of the two I prefer the Battlemaster. With Victors comes the meta and a number of other problems, where using a Battlemaster will bring forth either a Stalker, Battlemaster or Warhawk as an enemy. Warhawks are a joke, Stalkers aren't particularly dangerous just very tanky and finally an enemy Battlemaster is just a matter of how you approach it.

This typically means a more relaxing game. Not to mention it's easier to have a fast battlemaster with good firepower. They typically don't require XL engines, keeping them pretty affordable. Their arms are large and can easily be used to block rounds with a bit of use of the Left CTRL key.

The 3S is of course the easiest variant. Pack in the LRMs, a tag, and 3 ML and relax while listening to some good music. "Clans? What Clans? Oh you mean all those things I killed with LRMs? Meh, don't see why they gave you such a hard time."

In general I like them all. The view you get from the cockpit is pretty amazing.

They aren't as great as Stalkers when it comes to the Flamer rigs, but they can still take on AC/40 Jagers and win.

Here are some Battlemaster rigs. Sharp-shooter/brawler + Flamer Brawler rigs. (The second is a very effective joke build. But that's all it is, a joke that just happens to work under the right conditions.)


Some post-Clan Battlemaster 3S action (LRM boat).

Edited by Koniving, 07 August 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 August 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Huge and awesome post!
Thanks a lot!
I was thinking the same things, "playing" with smurfy, and piloting the only Victor (C) standard.
I also tried the highlander but I didn't like it. Using quite always medium mechs, I need maneuverability.
I'm still undecided.
You have mastered both chassis I guess.
I was thinking that starting with a BMS-1S , I would get the C-bill for buying the other 2 (for mastering them); or is a wrong idea?
Or is Victor easier to master because it's easier to use?

I've mastered BLRs and am in the process right now of mastering VTRs, actually.

As far as earning the C-bills goes...

There's really a standard rule you can use for C-bill earning, provided you don't overdo it on the boosted Exp matches (whether they're first of the day, Champion-caused, or due to a bonus weekend) where the C-bills aren't boosted also (so Premium Time and Hero 'Mechs don't throw this off, but other sources of bonus Exp do). This rule also requires not buying modules for the 'mechs- which doesn't bother me much, I could never spare the C-bills for modules before working out this rule and so I've just continued not using them so far.

If you are mastering a Light 'mech, you will earn more C-bills than you spend buying and kitting out your variants.

If you are mastering a Medium 'mech, you will earn slightly more C-bills than you spend buying and kitting out your variants, as long as you don't wind up using multiple high-rating (325+) XL engines.

If you are mastering a Heavy 'mech, you will earn about as many C-bills as you spend buying and kitting out your variants, as long as you don't wind up using multiple high-rating (325+) XL engines.

If you are mastering an Assault 'mech, you will suffer a significant overall loss of C-bills in the process of buying and kitting out your variants. Using multiple high-rating XL engines will make this worse, but if you somehow find yourself using only standard engines under 300 rating, little to no Endo-steel, and no truly expensive weapons (advanced tech stuff like ER, LB-X and Artemis IV), you may wind up breaking even as with a Heavy 'mech.


Given that BLRs tend to fairly big (300-340) standard-type engines, you can expect to spend a bit (A couple of million) more in the way of C-bills buying and refitting them than you earn in the process of mastering them. If you're a fairly good pilot (and thus earn something like 110-130k C-bills on a match win) this works out to roughly one and a half to two hours of extra play time per variant to make up the difference. Victors, on the other hand, tend strongly towards large XL engines and will drain your bank account because of this to a degree unprecedented- my most expensive BLR variant (including customization) uses an XL engine and cost me 15.5 million and the others around 10-12 million each, while most Victors after full customization will be using fairly big XL engines and run you 14-17 million C-bills.

Or you can do what I do and alternate mastering Assault or Heavy 'mechs with mastering Light or Medium 'mechs (respectively) so that your C-bill earnings roughly keep pace with your need to pay for new variants and upgrades.


Regarding 'easier to master'- I can't tell you if the Victor or Battlemaster will be easier for you to master. That depends heavily on how you prefer to customize them and how you tend to play. If you tend towards certain playstyles and kit it out for those playstyles, the Victor will be easier and if you tend towards others (or don't have a strong tendency) and kit it out for them (or feel up to regularly changing weapons and keeping track of how those changes affect your performance in the event of no tendency), then the Battlemaster will be easier.

Not knowing how you play, I can't say from here which would be easier for you.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 08 August 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Stefka,

Good weekend to get a BLR, VTR, BNC, or STK. Some of the Variants are on sale.

Jody

[StevieRayVaughan]

Stalker....does everything the Battlemaster does, only better. Better hardpoints, can brawl, snipe or hurl LRMs.

[Koniks]

Victors can brawl or play the long-range ballistic/PPC game. While there are a few options for how you build those, there's not a lot of diversity there. They can also take an arm-mounted AC20 which is unique. All 3 will take similar loadouts.

Battlemasters can brawl, boat energy, boat missiles, or deliver a satisfying amount of small-medium caliber AC rounds either alone or in combination with energy and missiles. The variants all offer something a little different. The extra 5 tons and the 400 engine cap also give you a lot more choices about whether you go slow and tank. Or go fast and skirmish.

So what's you're favorite playstyle?

Beast Incarnate XIII, on 08 August 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Stalker....does everything the Battlemaster does, only better. Better hardpoints, can brawl, snipe or hurl LRMs.

Unless you want to move faster than molasses on a sub-zero Arctic morning.

Edited by Mizeur, 08 August 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

I tried the Victor 9B and some Battlemaster variant,just hated them both.Victor was bit better,i ran it as a brawler with AC20 and srms and couple of medium lasers.Battlemaster is a great LRM boat but the non missile variants are really specialist tools and not new player friendly

[Koniks]

Cookiemonter669, on 08 August 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

I tried the Victor 9B and some Battlemaster variant,just hated them both.Victor was bit better,i ran it as a brawler with AC20 and srms and couple of medium lasers.Battlemaster is a great LRM boat but the non missile variants are really specialist tools and not new player friendly

Did you get them through elite efficiencies? They're tough to judge until you do.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Mizeur, on 08 August 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Did you get them through elite efficiencies? They're tough to judge until you do.

well no,i didnt want to get my face beaten in that much.

[Koniks]

Then you didn't really give them a fair try. They can be difficult to get through the efficiencies but its worth it.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Cookie, no 'mech is going to be even remotely as effective without efficiencies. Things that simply don't work on a 'mech without basics (or even on a 'mech with basics) become easy to pull off once you have all four elite efficiencies (and thus double the basic efficiencies). It's an extremely different experience, thanks to huge alterations like a 2/3 re-start time after shut down a 10% speed increase, and massive changes to twist and turn efficiency, to say nothing of the step up from +7.5% cooling and +10% heat threshhold immediately to +15% cooling and +20% heat threshhold.

Go ahead and check on Smurfy's, the Weaponlab lets you 'radio box' on Cool Run, Heat Containment, and Elites- it's the difference between 15 seconds firing before overheat and as much as 29-32 seconds firing before overheat.

Additionally, you have to count in the time getting used to weapon placement and the individual 'mech agility- if you don't take the time to at least finish Basics you're just not going to have a clear idea how the 'mech behaves. It's like deciding to learn how to knit, or any other physical skill, really- you're just not going to get it right away. Or a new sport- if you're used to american football and you suddenly start playing rugby, you're not going to be as good at it, even though there are considerable similarities.