286 replies to this topic

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

Jakob and Morang - well said!

[StalaggtIKE]

Arcturious, on 03 January 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

Regarding the ECM question, as has been stated already in this thread it was full of factual errors and just because people gave it a like does not mean it deserves to be answered.

What were these factual errors? I'm sure there was some given the magnitude of the questions, but all questions concerning ECM were not "full of factual errors."

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As has also been posted, the Devs have provided information on ECM repeatedly However as many of you don't like the answers you choose to ignore the data.

Please provide a link. The last thing I saw concerning ECM was in PCGamer, over 3 weeks ago, where Paul said that ECM is working as intended. Sure he also said that there will likely be a couple more counters involving modules and weapon effects. However, for those that have concerns over ECM, that is not very reassuring.

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Please admit to yourselves that the answer you are really looking for is "Remove ECM" and that nothing else will satisfy you. The fact that post received so many likes is actually kind of depressing, as it affirms the lack of understanding around the actual game mechanics that are already in effect.

Don't quit your day job, you make a horrible mind reader. The majority of the posts I've seen state that we simply want a balanced game. A lot of the ECM suggestions out there also include changes toward LRM and SSRM. The only thread I saw asking for the removal of ECM, only wanted it to be temporary until ECM was "fixed" to be added later.

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The Devs are working on ECM. They have already buffed TAG range. In this very Q&A they admit that they are looking at making TAG have a toggle for always on.

True. However calling TAG a proper counter to ECM is a joke. It must be held on target until lock is made, roughly 3-5 seconds. You also must factor in the time it takes for the missiles to hit target, perhaps another 2-5 seconds. The rare occasions where TAG is a viable solution, the target was standing out in the open, thus he would have died to LRM regardless. TAG is simply allowing LRMs the ability to do what they should be able to do already. ECM is granting the target the ability to make poor decisions like run out in the open. Anyone that foolishly runs in the open, should be punished.

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Data mining has shown that there are modules in the works that will also effect ECM, probably under testing right now. It's unverified, but from the MWO Mechlab program it is indicated the following modules that may effect ECM:

I imagine even more are planned and on the way.

That being said, you should see our frustration. Why not [PGI] respond to the questions stating the fact that counters are on the way?

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 January 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Marcus Tanner, on 03 January 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Saying that ballistic/energy mechs are unaffected is nonsense. You know as well as everyone else that being able to communicate where the enemy is and what you're shooting at is *critical* in this game, and PUGs can only do that in a firefight by electronically targeting things. This is in addition to the benefits while sneaking.

Agreed. How someone could play a MW game, and not realize how important this is baffles me. Coring is a big part of MW, the better when done as a team. The ability to passively remove shared targeting is a huge buff! This alone is a big part of hurting teamwork within pug games.

[warp103]

Arcturious, on 03 January 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

I imagine even more are planned and on the way. Also, to the man who raised his son as an example. I apologise, but you have picked one of the only mechs in the game to which ECM has absolutely ZERO effect. The Ilya does not even have a missile hardpoint. ECM does not stop any of the Ballistic or Energy weapons it can mount. It is in fact one of the mechs that is capable of countering ECM by itself by mounting TAG to spot which is the ECM mech in a crowd, then take it out with targeted Ballistic support fire. What is worse though is that you have had people commiserating without obviously even checking their facts. Thus proving the point that the ECM arguments are driven by emotion rather than reason.

If your son is having problems with the Ilya, I suggest actually trying to teach him ways of better using its capabilities and explaining how heat vision works. Train him to be an anti ECM nightmare and watch as he gets congratulated by his team mates. Both his and your enjoyment of the game will likely increase as a result. Taking the negative approach is easy but if you truly want a return on your investment you need to look for the real reason behind the poor performance in this specific chassis and adjust. Perhaps in the D-DC he uses SRM more, which means he might benefit from mounting LB10X as his AC weapons. There are many possible solutions, however ECM is not and can not be the problem.

This is a good post and I will answer.
First he is young and as we all know the young want fun. Not a game that has a learning curve that is so high.EDIT{He adapt to the high curve, then the game made a new learning curve}. This is the reason this game is losing so many first timers.
Second he is avg when it come to Ballistic or Energy weapons. Not great not you suck but avg. So 1 v 1 he hold his own. The issue as he explained to me is this. Dad I can not see the if 1 or the whole team is there till i get killed. So I watch his style and each time ECM is one the field is is Raven L 's not one, not 2 but 3 and 4. With lag shield trying to hit one is a issue. Trying hitting 3 or 4 you are toast.
Third coms lol there are non. You can not call for help. So what is a kids to do, ? DIE.
Even as a skilled player vs ravens issue. Versus a raven with ecm BIG issue. Versus 3 -4 ecm raven anyone want to uninstall.
Now granted there are not always that many ravens. There are other players using ecm and lag shield as a ez mode.
Does that help noobs. No, it basically just make the game frustrating as hell.
He started the game and loved it. Even in the crappy overheat all the time trial mechs.
Got his Commando 1b {alone}. Still loved it. I pay money for a mech LLYA. He love love love it. Then ECM take the love away.
What does this suggest to you?
To me is suggest a issue with ECM. It is funny, he back to loving it now that he has ECM. Hence why, I Force him in to the LLYa for every 4 ecm matches. Though I only allow him in the 2D commando, if his stat drop more the .05.

Edit FYI SRM is ok he says.after reading his. "It's the AC20 to the dome"

Do I want the ECM gone ? Hell no. I want the true GECM not one with Angel ECM Suite with Null Signature System and Stealth armor.

Edited by warp103, 03 January 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

warp103, on 03 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

Do I want the ECM gone ? Hell no. I want the true GECM not one with Angel ECM Suite with Null Signature System and Stealth armor.

Agreed. In fact I would look forward to the inclusion of new techs: Angel ECM, Null Signature and Stealth armor. I just want a properly balanced MechWarrior game.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 January 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

ECM opinions aside, don't you think that an answer to the ECM question wouldn't be too hard to do? Or maybe just an answer to ECM? Or even an answer to 3rd person right? I mean that had the same approach, they said even the slightest thing about it, people were up in arms about it (a larger percent), and they haven't said, "No" to it yet. They did say if there is a situation where it could work, they could consider it, a far cry from the, NEVER they said before.

I try to not get in PGI's face about these things, I haven't a clue how to run a video game, how to code it properly, (I have designed my own game for TT, RPG, so I actually feel somewhat capable on balancing things, personally). but an answer on these, really huge 'problems' (ie, a lot of players are concerned about them, even though not everyone is), and directly here and not via PC gamer, would be a huge bonus to them.

Seriously, wouldn't that be a good thing? If everyone feels confident in the product's expectations of PGI, people would feel better about spending money. Isn't that why so many people bought founders packages? Answering the big elephants in the room would be all good for everyone.

[Jakob Knight]

StalaggtIKE, on 03 January 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Agreed. How someone could play a MW game, and not realize how important this is baffles me. Coring is a big part of MW, the better when done as a team. The ability to passively remove shared targeting is a huge buff! This alone is a big part of hurting teamwork within pug games.

Well, consider that ECM is meant to reduce teamwork in the game. The use of ECM requires no teamwork, no effort, no initiation of action on the part of the ECM unit, and works to encourage the ECM unit to isolate themselves from the rest of the team to avoid accidental hits or detection. Conversively, the 'counter' equipment of TAG requires massive team effort in order that the TAGing unit find a target, designate it for an extended period of time during which it cannot, itself, effectively fire weapons other than large lasers, and survive long enough in open line-of-sight for TAGing not to be a death-sentence (read: another unit on top of the TAGing unit and the unit it is designating for has to distract the target from firing on the TAG unit).

In short, using ECM breaks teamwork on the mounting side, while countering it requires at -least- three times the number of opponents than the ECM unit, all working perfectly together without anyone interfereing. Thus the counter is beyond unrealistic or sound, making people unwilling to even attempt or equip for it, again discouraging teamwork on the other side. In no way can ECM be said to be intended to work to make more teamwork.

Until a viable counter that is balanced against ECM is made available, this is how things will be. And right now, based on the silence of the Devs towards the entire subject, that balance is not on the horizon or even something they want to address.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 03 January 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[3rdworld]

Not sure why you guys are so surprised.

All of the "ask the devs" are just answering completely non consequential questions.

They like the state of balance, are a joke.

Case and point, "we think PPCs and LPL make too much heat"..... it only took them months to figure that one out. Don't look for a ECM balance till summer.

Edited by 3rdworld, 03 January 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[B B Wolfe]

3rdworld, on 03 January 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Not sure why you guys are so surprised.

All of the "ask the devs" are just answering completely non consequential questions.

They like the state of balance, are a joke.

Case and point, "we think PPCs and LPL make too much heat"..... it only took them months to figure that one out. Don't look for a ECM balance till summer.

. . .

[Flagrant]

What I got from the PC Gamer article is that ecm will have counters from both modules and weapons. Maybe PPC will temporarily disrupt ecm. Still won't help with speedy lights with ecm but maybe the module will counter close circling ecm mechs. Also collisions are coming back.

[Vassago Rain]

This what ECM does to golds and LRMboaters.

[StalaggtIKE]

Flagrant, on 03 January 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

What I got from the PC Gamer article is that ecm will have counters from both modules and weapons. Maybe PPC will temporarily disrupt ecm. Still won't help with speedy lights with ecm but maybe the module will counter close circling ecm mechs. Also collisions are coming back.

That's great that you got some reassurance from the article. I, and I'm sure some other, did not. His first statement concerning ECM, was:

Paul Inouye said:

The effect [of ECM] is working as intended and forces players to play a lot smarter…,

This already says to me that he is happy with the result. That means the burden lies on the players to provide proof that there is a problem as he doesn't currently see one.

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People are thinking we need to severely 'nerf' the ECM. This is not the case at all.

I've read a lot of feedback on ECM, I have yet to see one that asked to severely nerf it. This just make it appear as if he's out of touch with the fans of the game. That being said there is soo much feedback out there, that I am sure at least someone has called for a huge nerf. Next he lists TAG as a counter.

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There is already 1 counter-ECM item in the game (TAG), and likely there will be a couple more involving modules and weapon effects.

TAG grants you the ability to smart fire missiles, however it does not neutralizes ECM's other abilities such as distorting minimap or stealthing allies, thus it is not a counter. No, TAG is simply another form of attack against an ECM mech, just as any other mech. Calling TAG a counter to ECM is about as good as calling the AC10 a counter to ECM. It's absurd; the only true counter is more ECM.

Let's say modules are really in the works. Why not announce it during this Q&A session? At the very least announce the concern over ECM and give it a blatant "we're looking into it." ECM was clearly on a lot of people's minds and it deserved some recognition.

Source: PCGamer

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 January 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[steelblueskies]

Vassago Rain, on 03 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

This what ECM does to golds and LRMboaters.

need to add my sad fatlas-rs quad-llas 40shs mech with one ams to that list. ecm radiation causes his friendlies to go full-on-manhattan-project-level-derp.

neither gold nor lrms.

[Jakob Knight]

Vassago Rain, on 03 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

This what ECM does to golds and LRMboaters.

Wow. He knows how to speak in pictures. He must know what he's talking about, since he's so educated.

[Dropdeadfred]

This is my first time finding out about the Dev Q&A forum posts. The vitriol over them not answering any questions on ECM are valid, IMHO. I've posted elsewhere that I'm one of those players that is abusing the hell out of ECM and it's OP'ness currently. It's at the point that why even swap out of a mech that has it? It only hurts me, I gain nothing from not using it.

ECM is brokenly good, pure and simple. Here's a question to answer, is this your first game ever? I'd love to know what other games these developers have made. Putting in something so over the top, for so little cost, what were you thinking? I'm in the industry, and I can't believe this even got past the morning meeting, so to speak.

[UnseenFury]

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Q: Do lights take the same amount of damage as other non-light mech classes from other mech classes? [Rooikat]

A: Yes, they do. Mechs all use the same weapons, so different class/variants wouldn't do different damage. [Garth]

You could have explained poor guy about fcked up net coding and hit boxes meters ahead of mechs.

[Scarlett Avignon]

"Q: Well as I asked in (StD29), will any of the Spider variants be able to equip the Guardian ECM? [Monsoon]
A: I'll have to ask DavidB when he's back from his holiday (next week). [Garth]"

Why is this even in here as a question if you can't answer it?

[xX_Nero_Xx]

the only ? i have is when are we going to get a in game lobby.

[Gremlich Johns]

The answers to ECM are likely in the making. My solution is to run a Centurion A with an LBX-10 and SRM6's and target any ECM mech I can get close to. What I do not like is that the ECM on one mech makes it seem like ALL the mechs around it have it, not just the one carrying it. That is what I find unpalatable.(that and the friendly mechs within the coverage have no sensor degradation at all. They should be affected by the ECM as well.) Scouts are supposed to scout, not protect the force by masking them.

I am sure they will develop an answer and possible adjustment for this very polarizing issue soon. They have a lot to consider with respect to the player base feelings on the matter. The matter calls for patience, after all, the addition of the capability is fairly recent. I'd rather see more mechs and maps, frankly, and let them tweak things as time marches by.

One last thing, be nice, everybody, leave the rage elsewhere, it does no one any good to cloud the issue with unproductive nattering. Good points of view, rationally articulated even in a spirited many, achieves more.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 03 January 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[StUffz]

Tolkien, on 02 January 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

It was still the most popular question by a factor of 8 for 3 weeks running, and had >200 + >80 likes in ATD29 and 29A respectively.

So hundreds of people people in the community were willing to put their name beside the question to say "please address this" and it was addressed with silence. I can only hope that this means they are preparing a response of some sort and want the 2nd attempt at ECM to go off better than this.

In the meantime I personally am dealing with it by fielding a streak COM2D and a laser+streak Raven 3L, both with ECM, and both very fast. Given that the ad for a lead network programmer is still up, I expect to get a few more months of lag shield out of them, and given that ECM mostly neutered the homing missiles that used to counter lights that would run in the open or circle strafe in line, it's a pretty effective build.

I encourage everyone to make the most of ECM while we have this great toy to play with. I feel bad for people like Warp103's son who spent dollars on a mech (I have 4 founders mechs gathering dust) that was 'game changed' by ECM.

While it was good that you listed every single item ECM does counter I think the question was just too detailed and that's why it was not answered. On the other side, we do not know if Garth just kept it out because he has led your detail to the team and they have no answer to it yet how it's best to solve. At the end we do not know and we have to continue to address it.

I think the best way to proof your thesis is to meet Garth with 8 ECM mechs and say "hi" to him.

And about people who spend tons of money into the game. personal fault. it's beta and while our money helps to develop the game, it's at the moment for the game designers turn to show the results of pumping money into their beta game.