286 replies to this topic

[Mordin Ashe]

LionZoo, on 03 January 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

However, even a response along the lines of "our data shows that ECM is working as intended" would've given the player base some feedback.

Exactly! That is what I expected to find in this QaA. No complicated ideas about tweaking and nerfs/buffs, just a simple sentence to explain how they see ECM is doing these days. Sad thing we didn't get that.

[repete]

StalaggtIKE, on 02 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

How was this question just ignored?

I like how this post gets more likes than the Q&A answers post.

[repete]

Farix, on 02 January 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

It wasn't a question, it was a grandstanding rant that was repeatedly spammed. Of course it wasn't going to get answered. How "popular" it was is unimportant.

Translation - "I like ECM, so I think the question is stupid".

[Accursed Richards]

StUffz, on 03 January 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

While it was good that you listed every single item ECM does counter I think the question was just too detailed and that's why it was not answered.

Then say "The question is too detailed to answer here." It took me about 10 seconds to type that.

Really, it seems a bit silly to claim the question wasn't answered because it wasn't phrased exactly right. What, am I playing an old text adventure game, where I fail to realise the game wanted me to type DESCEND THE CRAGGY RAVINE instead of USE ROPE?

DragonsFire, on 03 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

As I noted earlier, simply because it is the 'most discussed item on the forums' by the vocal minority to be found here does not mean that it is unbalanced or that the entire MWO playerbase agrees with that position. Game forums in general are frequented by only a fraction of that particular game's players, and MWO is no exception. To make a game based on said fraction and their feedback would be a terrible decision, especially if data being gathered over the course of gameplay tells an opposite story.

Then say "The data we're gathering over the course of gameplay tells a different story." Again, ten seconds to type that.

Only thing to do is to keep raising the question, for as long as it takes.

[steelblueskies]

DragonsFire, on 03 January 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

As I noted earlier, simply because it is the 'most discussed item on the forums' by the vocal minority to be found here does not mean that it is unbalanced or that the entire MWO playerbase agrees with that position. Game forums in general are frequented by only a fraction of that particular game's players, and MWO is no exception. To make a game based on said fraction and their feedback would be a terrible decision, especially if data being gathered over the course of gameplay tells an opposite story.

I'm willing to admit that I could be incorrect, and the gameplay data is telling them it's unbalanced and they won't remove it because it's their 'pet feature' (seriously, one of the more asinine positions I have seen). I have yet to experience this ECM boogeyman that's being proposed however, either in solo Pub drops, 4 man Pub drops, or 8 man group drops.

Again, while feedback on the forums is important and certainly taken into account, it's not and shouldn't be the deciding factor on how the game is developed if it does not concur with the data.

following that logic the responses that only appear on the forums are also discussion with that same minority of the playerbase. to ignore that is, derpy at the least. i'm glad you can hit the rest of things in balance with the topic by moving that goalpost, but not even response, discussion or commentary to the question when the minority(forum users) have a significant clump inquiring?

and that's assuming the rest of your contentions are the norm not the sides of the bell curve.

that the discussion got skipped and they keep trying to bury it..


in fairness sake however garth did indicate much of it will need to go from the guys doing analytics, so perhaps those people either are not available or do not have sufficient data.

Edited by steelblueskies, 04 January 2013 - 02:57 AM.

[StUffz]

Accursed Richards, on 04 January 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Then say "The question is too detailed to answer here." It took me about 10 seconds to type that.

Really, it seems a bit silly to claim the question wasn't answered because it wasn't phrased exactly right. What, am I playing an old text adventure game, where I fail to realise the game wanted me to type DESCEND THE CRAGGY RAVINE instead of USE ROPE?

I think that is what the Ask the Devs threads are really are.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

The concept of introducing something totally overpowered (hell even FASA scrapped it as too OP) as the Angel ECM plus Null Field in a single box and then trying to buff something to counter it, is total bogus I am sorry.
As this will either:

• make both systems OP and must have
  
• make both systems invalid
  
• or simply wont work at all (come on I haven't see someone tag me long enough with ECM to even let the missiles hit)

The only manly thing to do would be to remove ECM from the game, until a better implementation is made, that is more along the lines of the actual Guardian ECM. (aka it would help scouts that sport this directly, but not make your whole team invincible)

To prove the point look at other games, Eve for example:
Titan Doomsday was way OP in Eve. CCP (the developer) tried to counter it, they cut the titans armour in half, they made other ships better to kill them, they buffed supercarriers etc. etc. etc. it just did not help.
In the end they redesigned the way the doomsday device works totally.
Eve is full of these failures, tracking dreads, glasscanon snipers, untrackable tier 3 ships etc. etc. etc. in the end they always had to nerf the system itself as counter balance just did not work if something is totally out of proportion superior.

Edited by Terry Ward, 04 January 2013 - 03:54 AM.

[Syllogy]

StalaggtIKE, on 02 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

How was this question just ignored?

<troll> Because it's a stupid question </troll>

Trolling aside, ECM is just another item that came down the line that people cried "Oh no! This is OP!"

AMS had the same cries of OP when it was released. 1.5 tons for 3-5 missiles destroyed per second per AMS system. That's huge, especially when groups of mechs with AMS stand together, and is definately not relagated to the dust bin.

ECM mechs are usually the first ones that I seek out and destroy with my TAG equipped Missile Boat. I usually do between 700-1500 damage per match with my LRM Boat, so my LRM's and TAG haven't hit the dustbin either.

And, while ECM might be the flavor of the season, there is likely to be more items and modules that come down the development pipe to combat ECM's effects without changing ECM itself.

[Xendojo]

Yeah i'm kinda pissed off that some serious concerns of the player base get shunted aside for humor.
That a bull$|-|it practice guys, you might want to separate the two. We come to "Ask the devs" for information not for a stand-up routine. If you don't have the information we are asking for then own up to the fact.

It's OK guys, we KNOW(or at least i do) that you are doing this thing by the seat of your pants.
I'm reminded of the Wizard of Oz "IGNORE THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!"

Fat chance! We see you and we want answers!!

~Xendojo

EDIT: Now it's about damn time that you address the elephant/s in the room. We have ignored the fact that you are ignoring the elephants for long enough now.

Edited by Xendojo, 04 January 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[DragonsFire]

Kaijin, on 03 January 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

National opinion polls - You know how they work? Every single person is not polled. A tiny fraction is, and is considered to be representative of the whole. Now a game's forum users are not representative of the whole in that they are the gamers that are more passionate about the game than the average player. That passion is demonstrated by their participation on the game forums. That passion also translates into the formation of player-led units, player-run events, player-inspired content, etc. etc. - Basically the community lifeblood of a MMO. The players on the forums are the players that matter when it comes to whether a game such as this is going to succeed or fail.

Generally what drives participation in the forums is feedback on a feature that those participating think is wrong/broken. A recent example Frame drop issues on Forest Colony that was a result of Ambient Occlusion being turned on.

My stance on the vocal minority remains unchanged, because those that feel that ECM hinders their gameplay or fun factor would seek out the forums and make their voices heard as well, much as happened with Ambient Occlusion. I have been passionate about a great many games, but only in MWO have I visited and posted with anything approaching regularity. A number of my teammates and acquaintances who play are in the same boat as I am. Are we now suddenly less passionate about this game because we feel no need to post and happen to enjoy the direction it's going (note: very few of us drive ECM mechs, and that's on rare occasion)

I am not ruling out said vocal minority either, for the reasons you noted. But just because said vocal minority says something louder and more often does not automatically make it the right decision for the community.

And I will say again that perhaps I am wrong and ECM does need to be changed yet again for balance sake aside from the planned modules/effects coming down the line. The reason I point out the vocal minority championing this cause however is that I have yet to see any of them make this concession that perhaps they too, could be wrong.

Mordin Ashe, on 03 January 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

PUGs will never be about communication, but more about eight different folks, each trying to do his best. The only way to counter ECM is effective team play, meaning the use of TS and higher than average level of team coordination. Not a problem for groups, yes a problem for PUGs. This means that the PUGs are who suffers most from ECM.

The PUB drops tend to suffer due to lack of someone not wanting to step up and lead because they figure, hey, I'm in a PUB drop, up against a team that's 8 man sync dropping, I might as well just shoot to my hearts content, rinse and repeat.

The reality is that while there are a great number of new players out there, there are even a greater number of competent and teamwork minded players. All they are ever looking for is a little direction. I solo PUB drop a lot, and I tend to end up on the winning side. A big reason is because I have the same thing I do for every map at the beginning, which is to get my team organized at a particular position (waypoint as well using Command) on the map and hold and tell the lights respond to any cap attempts. I'll then type out other instructions as warranted, but even those few basic commands, which takes roughly 10 seconds, can make a huge difference than not typing anything.

Conversely, there are times where I have sit back, and only once did someone suggest a plan of action. In almost every single case, we were 8-1 or 8-2 routed. Teamplay is still possible through typing, and it can be used to great effect. Just because most people are either too lazy or can't be bothered to type doesn't mean it's not a viable option in the interim. In the end the players that want to go off and do their own thing are going to do that regardless of the communications in place, but most people realize this is a team game and generally function well with even minimal direction.

[Jakob Knight]

DragonsFire, on 04 January 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

The PUB drops tend to suffer due to lack of someone not wanting to step up and lead because they figure, hey, I'm in a PUB drop, up against a team that's 8 man sync dropping, I might as well just shoot to my hearts content, rinse and repeat.

The reality is that while there are a great number of new players out there, there are even a greater number of competent and teamwork minded players. All they are ever looking for is a little direction. I solo PUB drop a lot, and I tend to end up on the winning side.

I would disagree with your analysis of why PUGs suffer in the game. The problem is that there is no ability to configure a team prior to a drop (no out-of-combat chat), so each person drops on their own, and can only depend on themselves for their combat equipment. However, the way the game is being designed requires more and more pre-combat organization (the stated reasons for TAG to be the counter to ECM all rely on a support unit to have another unit willing to equip TAG to function, an impossibility when you can't ask someone to do so before the drop). Thus, you end up in a game that requires effective teamwork without the ability to construct a team. You end up with an armed mob of individuals unable to configure to -be- a team.

Were it possible for a given pilot to notify other pilots what they have (say a listing next to their name for mech and icons for the type equipment on that mech, or at least a settable role title such as 'TAG Scout' in a searchable listing from which PUGs could be assembled) prior to a drop, it would not be as acute a problem. As it is, everyone has to configure to fight alone.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 04 January 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[Xendojo]

Well said jakob!

But this is not the place for another ECM or MM discussion. Or gameplay or balance discussion. Lets get back on topic shall we?

Why were certain relevant questions ignored in favor of anecdotal or humorous questions?

EDIT: I did laugh at the whiskey question...but still.

Edited by Xendojo, 04 January 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[B B Wolfe]

Windies, on 03 January 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Give it time. What I mean by that is that they've already made statements that adding 3rd person would open up the game to a rather large player base ( World of Tanks) and since most of the forum goers are hooked and they already got your money, Why wouldn't they pursue more money?

Ahh, I did not know that. I was under the impression that Duke Nukem sucked overall. Oh, well!

[Jakob Knight]

Xendojo, on 04 January 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Well said jacob!

But this is not the place for another ECM or MM discussion. Or gameplay or balance discussion. Lets get back on topic shall we?

Why were certain relevant questions ignored in favor of anecdotal or humerous questions?

As I stated in another post, the reason that makes the most sense is the simplest: the Devs don't want to talk about those questions. Wether it's because those specific areas are parts of the game they have their own agenda on, that they don't want to go on record when they don't know themselves, or a broader attitude that the entire 'Ask the Devs' section is not for real answers but to have a good time with the players, we just don't know. Could be all or some of those reasons.

[Xendojo]

Jakob Knight, on 04 January 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

As I stated in another post, the reason that makes the most sense is the simplest: the Devs don't want to talk about those questions. Wether it's because those specific areas are parts of the game they have their own agenda on, that they don't want to go on record when they don't know themselves, or a broader attitude that the entire 'Ask the Devs' section is not for real answers but to have a good time with the players, we just don't know. Could be all or some of those reasons.

Elephants! Ignore the elephants!! They do not exist!!! Riiight.

I'm of the opinion that the devs are aware that the only answer they have for the ECM question is one that the majority of the vocal minority will not like. So why not just put it out there? **** us off now so we can go grumble and be pissed off then get over it and come play.

Oh that's right....they can't do that. They need us to keep playing.

But honestly i think it's rather insulting to try to placate us with humor and anecdotes and ignore the damn elephants.

For the first time ever i am genuinely upset @ PGI.

Edited by Xendojo, 04 January 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Xendojo]

Ryvucz, on 02 January 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Let me drop this off here for you ECM question guys-

http://www.pcgamer.c...t-mode-release/

Scroll to the bottom of the article for the ECM specific response.

This answer is ridiculous. TAG is a soft counter to ECM, meaning temporary and situational. And that is AFTER the range buff. The only hard counter to ECM is another ECM.

Now if you guys have another hard counter to ECM in the works don't you think you should say something?

Why are you silent on this?
Are you afraid of losing players when it comes out that this implementation of ECM is here to stay?
Hey devs , you might want to pay attention to the fact that your player base is telling you VERY CLEARLY that you are DOING IT WRONG. EDIT: i'm referring here to not answering Tolkiens question not ECM.

I am disappoint.

EDIT: Tolkiens well worded, concise, and community supported question deserves to be addressed. Period.

Edited by Xendojo, 04 January 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[HiplyRustic]

Jakob Knight, on 04 January 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

I would disagree with your analysis of why PUGs suffer in the game. The problem is that there is no ability to configure a team prior to a drop (no out-of-combat chat), so each person drops on their own, and can only depend on themselves for their combat equipment. However, the way the game is being designed requires more and more pre-combat organization (the stated reasons for TAG to be the counter to ECM all rely on a support unit to have another unit willing to equip TAG to function, an impossibility when you can't ask someone to do so before the drop). Thus, you end up in a game that requires effective teamwork without the ability to construct a team. You end up with an armed mob of individuals unable to configure to -be- a team.

Were it possible for a given pilot to notify other pilots what they have (say a listing next to their name for mech and icons for the type equipment on that mech, or at least a settable role title such as 'TAG Scout' in a searchable listing from which PUGs could be assembled) prior to a drop, it would not be as acute a problem. As it is, everyone has to configure to fight alone.

Or better, a central base/installation where players can hang out, form teams, talk, BS, click in for PUGs if they want, that sort of thing. Of course, now you're modelling a pixelated people environment as well as mech environments so it's seriously unlikely....but a non-model version, with multiple chat channels and visuals of who is in the "lobby" and what they have to bring to the party seems do-able.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 04 January 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Syllogy, on 04 January 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

<troll> Because it's a stupid question </troll>

Trolling aside, ECM is just another item that came down the line that people cried "Oh no! This is OP!"

AMS had the same cries of OP when it was released. 1.5 tons for 3-5 missiles destroyed per second per AMS system. That's huge, especially when groups of mechs with AMS stand together, and is definately not relagated to the dust bin.

ECM mechs are usually the first ones that I seek out and destroy with my TAG equipped Missile Boat. I usually do between 700-1500 damage per match with my LRM Boat, so my LRM's and TAG haven't hit the dustbin either.

And, while ECM might be the flavor of the season, there is likely to be more items and modules that come down the development pipe to combat ECM's effects without changing ECM itself.

I'd prefer the prior state of AMS over ECM. At least AMS requires ammo and does only one thing. ECM requires nothing and does a whole plethora of duties. It's simply a superior tech, if not you wouldn't seek the ECM users out to destroy them. As you say something will probably be developed to combat ECM, which is kind of absurd given the fact that ECM is supposed to be nothing but a countering tool. It should only counter within its small 180m disrupt bubble the following:

• Artemis
  
• BAP
  
• NARC
  
• C3 target sharing
  
• distort enemy radar

To be effective, the ECM user should have to work to get in close. It is not a scouting tool on its own, because it has no built in stealth abilities. It must be combined with Stealth armor or Null Signature for stealth abilities. MWO version of ECM simply does too much.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 January 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[HiplyRustic]

Farix, on 02 January 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

It wasn't a question, it was a grandstanding rant that was repeatedly spammed. Of course it wasn't going to get answered. How "popular" it was is unimportant.

Either you don't work in a field that depends on public perception or you are really bad at it.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 04 January 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Karl Split]

No answers on ECM make me a sad panda

Hero Urbie makes me slightly happier tho so only lonesome panda now