286 replies to this topic

[Icebound]

StalaggtIKE, on 02 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

How was this question just ignored?

Because there's no time to answer things like that when the really important stuff is what kind of alcohol Garth prefers.

[LynxFury]

No ECM doesn't stop bullets, but being inside that bubble gives you huge "effective armor" for several reasons: the other team has great trouble focusing fire on you--so they end up spreading around opportunity fire which is much less effective (for them), it hides already damaged sections of your mech because they can't pull up any targeting details--no longer do you really have to worry about turning away between shots to hide your injured side--they can't see you're hurt there, thus you can both absorb more shots and bring more firepower to bare on them as a result.

Edited by LynxFury, 04 January 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

CompproB237, on 04 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

ECM does not stop bullets.

It does stop the only weapons capable of killing those light mechs, because of lousy netcode. Not players fault there is no other way to reliably do that. So quite the oposite, it does.

CompproB237, on 04 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I'm going to stop responding to all the ECM complainers because I do not enjoy arguing with people that do not want to listen, nor Adapt.

The purpose of ECM whining is not lack of will to adapt, but impossibility to do so. Again, netcode. And please, stop, because you don't get the arguments of "the other side", so your responses are rather worthless anyway.

[QuaxDerBruchpilot]

Garth Erlam, on 02 January 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Q: What do you prefer - Scottish or Irish Whiskey? [Quax1102]
A: That is a crazy tough call. Initially I wanted to say Scottish and then admonish you for spelling it 'whiskey,' but then my Irish side head-butted my Scottish side and slurred something about Jameson. [Garth]

Jameson .... :-) so we have one thing in common :-)

[Jakob Knight]

Thontor, on 05 January 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

so your saying netcode is the problem, not ECM... i agree!

The problem is that ECM completely nullifies LRMs, something it was never able or intended to do. Even if it had been intended as an anti-Streak measure (something it also was never supposed to be able to do), it should not have had the effect of completely locking out a weapon system from the game. Especially for no cost to the mech mounting it, and to a system that already is useless inside combat ranges where the ECM is supposed to be limited to.

TAG is paraded around as the counter, but it isn't. As I said, a firefighting agent that only works if it doesn't come into contact with fire is not a firefighting agent, and that is what TAG is. If it were completely unaffected by ECM, there might be a case for it (despite TAG having far greater cost to the mounting unit), but the fact that it itself is countered by ECM and has too many disadvantages in use make the claims of it as a balance to ECM only valid in the minds of people who have no concept of balance or reason.

In short, the netcode issue is a seperate problem, and won't solve the problems with ECM. All it will do is help those people who have problems aiming, not the ones whose weapons are being shut down completely because someone sacrificed 1.5 tons on their mechs to have a miracle system that was some Dev's pet dreamwish they -had- to have put in when they got the power to do so.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 January 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[RenegadeMaster]

Tolkien said:

Question 1 is about ECM)
How was it considered balanced to introduce a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment that does all of the following:
i) Counters Artemis
ii) Counters BAP
iii) Counters TAG bonuses and the whole system inside of 180m
iv) Counters NARC - a system which weighs more and requires real skill and teamwork to use
v) Counters other ECMs
vi) Destroys LRM locks
vii) Destroys SSRM locks
viii) Ruins information sharing via minimap
ix) Scrambles HUD display of enemies
x) relegates AMS to the dustbin
xi) Requires no exploding ammo
xii) Generates no heat
xiii) Costs less than a much less useful module by a factor of 15...
xiv) Doesn't use up a weapon hardpoint

Going by tonnage and critical space the ECM should be about as useful as a small laser plus a regular heatsink.

StalaggtIKE, on 02 January 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

How was this question just ignored?

To see my reply in meme form, click here to see my post in the Mechwarrior Meme thread.

First off, I would like to welcome Tolkien to the Open Beta. No matter how much planning or Dev testing goes into a new feature, some things are going to slip through the cracks, but I am sure they are aware that ECM could use a bit more balance. I say that as someone who does software testing for a living. Until then, tactics are more critical than your rear CT being cored by an Atlas.

Now to answer StalaggtIKE's question: What kind of question does not actually contain a question mark? A loaded one. I would put money on that being the reason it wasn't selected. If the question were less rant-like and was less than a paragraph long, then just MAYBE it would have a chance at being selected.

[Accursed Richards]

RenegadeMaster, on 05 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

To see my reply in meme form, click here to see my post in the Mechwarrior Meme thread.

First off, I would like to welcome Tolkien to the Open Beta. No matter how much planning or Dev testing goes into a new feature, some things are going to slip through the cracks, but I am sure they are aware that ECM could use a bit more balance. I say that as someone who does software testing for a living.

If they were, why didn't they take 10 seconds of typing to say "We're looking at ECM."? Bam, there goes a lot of the annoyance with four words.

RenegadeMaster, on 05 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Now to answer StalaggtIKE's question: What kind of question does not actually contain a question mark? A loaded one. I would put money on that being the reason it wasn't selected. If the question were less rant-like and was less than a paragraph long, then just MAYBE it would have a chance at being selected.

It seems the critics can't win. Short questions about ECM can be dismissed as "ranting", but long ones can be dismissed as "loaded". The reason it's a paragraph long is that you need that much space to simply list the amazing number of things ECM has going for it compared to other systems with much higher costs.

[Dawnthieve]

first of all: try to figure im not posting just because my own experience gets wrecked

think a minute about how this game needs to be fun for a wide audience to stay alive. this means, or at least its my thesis, that most of all the PUG experience must be good, or at least decent. now you know that PUGs are usually unorganized. they also contain newbies on a regular basis.

to get to the point after having made basic assumptions is, that the real problem of ECM is MOST of all the kind of confusion it creates. you do not see allies if under enemy ecm effect. you do not see enemies if theyre out of your LOS and under ECM.
in ADDITION, you have netcode + lag, so many people rely on lock-on weapons. problem is, they only work in a limited way, or not at all. and to kill it all off, you have the more experienced players in D-DCs, beating the life out of the less experienced people, just by "suddenly" appearing "out of nowhere" with a 100t death machine.

to go into detail would take loads of more TL paragraphs.

at the end of the day, i would suggest a workaround (which will NOT get implemented because it acknowledges the fact that ecm needed special care) aimed at PUG gaming: balance out the number of ECMs on both teams, +/- 1. (Though usually the 0 ECM PUG loses vs the PUG with 1 ECM, due to 1-3 people getting caught alone vs the whole enemy team and are also exposed to LRM locks, while the ECM PUG isn't....)

Edited by Dawnthieve, 05 January 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Kaptain]

I'm a bit taken back that all of our ECM questions have been completely ignored.

Seriously makes no sense at all that all mechs around an ECM mech, including the ECM mech itself, all get the benefit from also having stealth armor when obviously they do not.

[RenegadeMaster]

Accursed Richards, on 05 January 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

If they were, why didn't they take 10 seconds of typing to say "We're looking at ECM."? Bam, there goes a lot of the annoyance with four words.

It seems the critics can't win. Short questions about ECM can be dismissed as "ranting", but long ones can be dismissed as "loaded". The reason it's a paragraph long is that you need that much space to simply list the amazing number of things ECM has going for it compared to other systems with much higher costs.

Critics can win, but a number of critics do not propose thought out solutions (if any). So I give props to those who break that trend. Also, Ask The Devs is not an ideal place for posing a question AND proposing a possible solution. An Ask The Devs question that is used rarely includes both. I believe that is because we have Suggestions and Patch Feedback forums for proposing solutions.

Some of the concerns with ECM come down to Devs needing to tune it, but it is easy for pilots to point the finger at something/someone else instead of looking at themselves or their team. So I will say it again:

With ECM in play, tactics are more critical than your rear CT being cored by an Atlas.

[Dawnthieve]

Sorry to sound biased here, BUT

RenegadeMaster]With ECM in play, on [b, said:

tactics are more critical than your rear CT being cored by an Atlas.[/b]

this is not true, for PUGs. Most of the times, the number of ECMs is not at all balanced, and it basically means more ECM wins, if they do not blatantly suicide alone by running off "going FAST".

Also, it's hard to suggest any possible solution as long as the only official statement is "ECM works as intended". The first thing the community has to prove and achieve, is making the DEVs realize that they're wrong. And this is pretty ****** tough as it appears.

Also, imho, i don't get the thing that makes people calling Tolkiens summary about ECM advantages/effectiveness a "rant", when he's not at all offensive to anyone.

Edited by Dawnthieve, 05 January 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

RenegadeMaster, on 05 January 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Critics can win, but a number of critics do not propose thought out solutions (if any). So I give props to those who break that trend. Also, Ask The Devs is not an ideal place for posing a question AND proposing a possible solution. An Ask The Devs question that is used rarely includes both. I believe that is because we have Suggestions and Patch Feedback forums for proposing solutions.

Some of the concerns with ECM come down to Devs needing to tune it, but it is easy for pilots to point the finger at something/someone else instead of looking at themselves or their team. So I will say it again:

With ECM in play, tactics are more critical than your rear CT being cored by an Atlas.

Another ECM fandboy. You'll defend it to the end. The developers can not even be bothered to address concerns on it. The fact is, there were several questions regarding ECM. I simply quoted that one because it had over 200 likes. How can anyone not see that as a problem?

[Cola]

ECM and the Netcode are crap. But thats ok because we got Santa atlas to make everything right. You can paint a bucket of crap any color you want but it won't hide the smell.

[Helsbane]

Alright, back in TT we had the option to target a hex and direct fire at that general area. Perhaps something like this would help with ECM, as it allows you to shoot at the general area and not rely on a weapons lock. Hit percentage for LRMs would be lowered dramatically, but you'd at least be able to shoot and force your real target out of cover. As it stands now, as soon as I see an ECM unit, I may as well power down. Can't do a damn thing as a support unit the way things are currently.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Guys, you are missing the point of this thread. We have multiple threads for discussing ECM and it's effect on gameplay, and possible solutions.

This thread is about the "Ask the Dev's" answers. And the discussion revolving around ECM in this thread had to do with PGI's answers not addressing a single ECM question, even though Tolkien's had 300 likes. And there were several others. The issue, therefore, is if PGI is acting "in good faith" on this issue, and the evidence indicates not. How such an issue that has caused so much controversy can be so totally ignored for over a month now is a pretty clear indication that they are not.

We are looking for substantive answers on issues that concern us. I'm more concerned about the behavior than I am about the issue at this time. If this is the way PGI will handle controversial issues, even though they have stated in the past they will stick with TT as much as possible, and take community input into account, then we should all be concerned.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 05 January 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

arden, on 05 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

ECM and the Netcode are crap.

better to say "ECM and the netcode appear at present to not be optimal"

And, if they were to say "We are looking at ECM" would ignite another series of rants regarding the topic.

I know how ECM is actually supposed to operate and work. I believe that PGI are looking at the issue. I believe that they will have something people will accept and it will come when knockdown comes back into the game. However, based on my real life experience, I can state, with confidence:

ECM should not be a cloak for the main force, Cloaks have no place in 3050 (unless it's cold or wet out of course)
ECM affects every mech and weapon depending on radar (missiles, mechs) or radio (mechs and NARCs) which is within the electromagnetic radiation range of the ECM suite - I've stated this before, if ECM is on, nobody's equipment works the way it should. PGI's ECM operates on a "Barrage" mode, not a pinpoint mode.
ECM is the primary survival tool for the Scout and Scouts are supposed to scout, not cloak the main force. If the light mech is not functioning as a scout, it is just a light mech that does not require the ECM suite
ECM equipment creates heat that needs to be cooled, otherwise it shuts down
ECM can be disrupted or destroyed by an EMP (which being hit/glanced by a PPC creates. Also, ECCM protocols can override ECM by putting out additional power)

Remember, jamming typically involves one mech putting out more EM power that the transmitting mech (like the commander on voice comms or a radar station). It does not negate radar or radio (or even light), but it does make things harder to do.

IR requires the use of an IR illuminator (called Pink light) on a targeting vehicle to reveal targets (meaning the targets reflect, not generate, infrared radiation), Thermals depend on the emanation of heat energy (from an operating vehicle) against a cooler background (Yes, I have used both methods of target acquisition as an armor crewman on M60, M60A1, M60A3 and M60 Rise passives as well as the M60A2 and XM-1)). Night observation devices depend on ambient light reflecting from "things". (I've used this equipment as well)

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 06 January 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[CompproB237]

Thontor, on 05 January 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

so your saying netcode is the problem, not ECM... i agree!

*Takes bow*


I said I wouldn't respond but...

Hey, here's some light reading for you fellows:

Sarna.net said:

The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. [Note: Heatvision, Nightvision and Magnetoscanners (not yet released) should be "unuseable" when inside the "bubble" of the effected area since it's Infrared. This effect is not present in MWO]
Affected systems include Artemis IV, [Hey, guess what? Artemis uses a tightbeam INFRARED LASER] C3 and C3i Computer networks, [how the 'Mechs share information... I have my caveats about how MWO shares information but I digress] and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. [In other words, ECM should not make those effected by it aware of it unless they have BAP]


The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.

The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. [imagine ECM weighing 1 ton and taking 1 crit D:] The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite.

Angel ECM begins development in 3052 from what I can tell. Not released for a while either (research + funding issues/delays). Stealth armor effects weapon accuracy on tabletop. Since this is not tabletop I'd guess the only effected systems would be convergence + spread weapons (LRMs/SRMs/SSRMs). Null signature merely hides electronic and heat emissions (electronic is used for targetting but is not the full capabilities of said targetting, heat should make Heatvision/Infrared Vision show little/no heat from Null 'Mech, Beagle+Clan Beagle is unable to detect a 'Mech, Bloodhound can detect).

You know what, the more I re-brush up on my Tabletop info the more I realize that you're all complaining about a piece of equipment that is, for more or less, functioning how it's supposed to. PGI/IGP did their homework. Netcode is basically the only thing you can currently complain about. Once that is fixed then it really will be functioning correctly. Well, except for the effects to Infrared, Ultraviolet, Magscan, and Sonar sensors of which are yet to be seen.

This is not the thread to cry about ECM on. On that part, I agree with Lupus Aurelius.

In response though, they're collating data about ECM's usage and it's effect on gameplay. This information then takes time to determine any tweaks (if necessary) need to be done and which ones. They then have to test the tweaks before determining if they're sufficient. They then release said tweaks and ... repeat the process. It's a sort of learning experience. That's why the game's a Beta. We're here to test and give feedback right now. Once the game is "Released" then we can still give feedback and "test" but we will, essentially, be released from the testing duty.

Currently they're technically testing ECM. I hope they do not make any changes to it until after they fix the netcode AND see how things play out afterward.


On topic: I'm glad the Developers are talking to the community and providing a way for the community to talk to them. These "Ask the Devs" threads are very nice and I'm glad that this is being done. Thank you for continuing to answer the community's questions.

Edited by CompproB237, 05 January 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Cola]

An here I thought we stopped caring about TT rules VS MWO when we doubled the armor values and cut DHS by 60%.

I just want them to say something on the mater. And I don't care about what kind of whiskey he likes. 3 weeks one would think we would have more questions answered then 22, 9 of witch were asked in other Q&As in one form or another.

If they tell me ECM is working 100% as intended and they have no intention of changing it, I won't be happy but I would stop bitching about it.
Sence we seam to care about TT rules again how about some outrage with ECM being placed on mechs in MWO when it was never on them in TT. ECM feels more like some Dev's pet project then anything we needed in the game, at this time. Also notice the lack of any change to streaks like were planed after the release of ECM.

There are plenty of good legit questions that cover glaring issues that continue to get asked and ignored in these Q&As so we can find out what kind of whiskey the devs drink.

[Lupus Aurelius]

ECM Feedback thread http://mwomercs.com/...eedback-merged/ is that way--->

Lupus Aurelius, on 05 January 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Guys, you are missing the point of this thread. We have multiple threads for discussing ECM and it's effect on gameplay, and possible solutions.

This thread is about the "Ask the Dev's" answers. And the discussion revolving around ECM in this thread had to do with PGI's answers not addressing a single ECM question, even though Tolkien's had 300 likes. And there were several others. The issue, therefore, is if PGI is acting "in good faith" on this issue, and the evidence indicates not. How such an issue that has caused so much controversy can be so totally ignored for over a month now is a pretty clear indication that they are not.

We are looking for substantive answers on issues that concern us. I'm more concerned about the behavior than I am about the issue at this time. If this is the way PGI will handle controversial issues, even though they have stated in the past they will stick with TT as much as possible, and take community input into account, then we should all be concerned.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 05 January 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[ICEFANG13]

Maybe we should make a "answer the players" thread, and put questions in it, so instead of just asking, we could get answers haha!