286 replies to this topic

[ICEFANG13]

The saying that TAG counters ECM kinda implies that ECM is OP, as the what PGI said about it (working as intended).

If its working as intended, then, well I'm sure you can read, in the grand scheme of things it will all work right. If it was good and fair right now, why would it require counters? No, that really does imply that it is OP right now, and when there are counters, it will be fair. Why would anti-ECM oppose this?

Personally I want it all to be balanced, and the thought to counter X with Y, and Y with Z, and Z with W, that implies a system to make money only, and not a game, because its easy to make money (as long as people play it), because people will shell out for the next counter to stay competitive. There is no reason why they cannot make a balanced game, with a counter system, but with LRMs being too strong as it is, and ECM countering that, what do you want next? I'm honestly impressed what they can come up with if that's the design. I hope they don't do that, they don't have to. Its a similar thing to the old prices vs the new years, if they do this design its likely we will see more higher prices, and less buyers. I also think that (and I've never said this before, so you can't see if I'm staying consistent), I believe they knew the holiday prices were too high, and they set it there for testing, and it can be higher because of the limited time thing, the next group was lower, and I suspect we'll either see one or the other (although probably nothing as close), depending on how it went. Hopefully more people got New Years stuff.

Saying that TAG counters ECM is already reaching bad design, even if TAG 100% countered ECM, people should think, "I should bring ECM, because the enemy team will probably have LRMs and SSRMs (even though it does way more still)", and then its TAG? "I should bring TAG because they will have ECM" implies bad design. Assuming they have 1 of 5 weapon systems is not a stretch, assuming they have 4 of 51 mechs, and those mechs have ECM? Now that is a stretch, but its not, because of how insanely powerful it is and common it is because of that.

I made those assumptions because PGI won't make any direct statements about it.

[Thorn Hallis]

ECM ain't worth talking about. Got it.

[Windies]

B B Wolfe, on 04 January 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

Ahh, I did not know that. I was under the impression that Duke Nukem sucked overall. Oh, well!

Rose colored glasses are a funny thing. The same could be said of MW:O, yet I am sure that you would want people to focus on the good and less on the bad amirite? Yet your inability to objectively look at something else and critique or view each individual aspect, only shows your lack of objectivity and overall bias. Cheers.

[B B Wolfe]

Windies, on 04 January 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Rose colored glasses are a funny thing. The same could be said of MW:O, yet I am sure that you would want people to focus on the good and less on the bad amirite? Yet your inability to objectively look at something else and critique or view each individual aspect, only shows your lack of objectivity and overall bias. Cheers.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out.

[Windies]

B B Wolfe, on 04 January 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yes, thank you for pointing that out.

I read sarcasm in your response, if not I do apologize.

[StalaggtIKE]

Thorn Hallis, on 04 January 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

ECM ain't worth talking about. Got it.

It's only "game changing"; definitely not worth talking about.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 January 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[B B Wolfe]

Windies, on 04 January 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

I read sarcasm in your response, if not I do apologize.

I was actually being serious. Rare, but it does happen!

With regard to the apparent issues of the day, sure ECM has some issues that need attention (SSRMs inside the bubble, cost), but I don't think they are as game-breaking as people seem to suggest. Given the TAG range increase to 750 meters, I've not really had a negative experience with ECM boats (even in mechs that aren't my guasskitty). Granted, I've only played a few 8-mans with ECM and not since the previous patch.

As with all things, change will come and we must adapt.

[Strengar]

Unfortunately my reply is going to be a waste of time but since I'm stagnant at work right now I have time to kill.
For everyone who keeps complaining about topics not being answered or questions being answered vaguely I would venture to say that these are new topics that the developers adding to a "short" list of things to do and research has to be done before any definitive answer could be given.
I only say this because I run into these same complaints at work all the time seeing how I work with software enhancements and testing every day myself. Sometimes answers are just not available but I tell you this for those complaining that the answers were short and uninformative if the developers made no responses then you would be complaining about no answers at all.
When it comes to not getting answers on ECM give the dev team time to calculate data. There are many things already on their plate and statistics need to be gathered. One thing I've learned is for the amount of people who complain as compared to those who don't the ones that normally complain are the ones who hate change in their little world.
I've had battles where LRM boats have completely leveled teams because the other team is using ECM counter correctly and other matches were I've been able to stop right in front of a LRM only mech and lay waste to them.
And 2 more words for the masses................project management and project creep.
Project management is used to keep things on track so the dev team and provide what was promised as close to the time they gave as they can. There are things that come up such as major break/fixes that have to be addressed "instantly" or within the next patch and that causes other things to get pushed.
Project creep is where a project slips passed the deadline and sometimes there is nothing that can be done about it. This is something that dev teams try to avoid at all cost but there are mitigating circumstances that can cause the creep that is out of the dev team's control.
So I apologizing for tossing a little bit of IT logic and understanding in the middle of the screaming and hollering of what could have, should have and why I didn't get answered posts.
I return you back to your regularly scheduled complaining session.

Oh and since the world was supposed to end in Dec. I'm thankful that the dev team is able to come back and answer what they have.

Edited by Shadow8125, 04 January 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[That Token Canadian Guy]

Nice of you guys not to answer some of the serious questions.That's fine just wag that tail of the dog and see where it gets you. If you dont answer questions that 90% of your population wants to know because you feel as wiping certain posts and ignoring certain questions will make the problems go away.That is a foolish train of thought and I am seriously doubting my in theory investment into a game I loved as a kid.

Netcode issues you have claimed from the start on certain mechs.Are you even working on it? Or are you guys to busy trying to put other useless content such as decorations for the cockpit, hero mechs, (which i dont mind) into a game not even ready because the NETCODE is not finished. I run Light mechs(actually all mechs),The Raven is my new exploiter. And yes it is an exploit mainly due to your lack of either know how or care.Ecm, netcode ,lag issues.Never mind the half damage lights the Raven takes next to none ive seen unless at a complete stop or someone got a lucky shot(which does happen).There are ways of facing this light mechs true, however,1 light mech no matter how good the pilot should not be able to TANK 4 assault mechs at the same time.Which I have done lots of since the ECM patch. I'd be done for if I actually took damage like I should be, none of this it hit the target but ... didnt.

Edited by daxiazun, 04 January 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[CompproB237]

daxiazun, on 04 January 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Netcode issues you have claimed from the start on certain mechs.Are you even working on it? Or are you guys to busy trying to put other useless content such as decorations for the cockpit, hero mechs, (which i dont mind) into a game not even ready because the NETCODE is not finished. I run Light mechs(actually all mechs),The Raven is my new exploiter. And yes it is an exploit mainly due to your lack of either know how or care.Ecm, netcode ,lag issues.Never mind the half damage lights the Raven takes next to none ive seen unless at a complete stop or someone got a lucky shot(which does happen).There are ways of facing this light mechs true, however,1 light mech no matter how good the pilot should not be able to TANK 4 assault mechs at the same time.Which I have done lots of since the ECM patch. I'd be done for if I actually took damage like I should be, none of this it hit the target but ... didnt.

Netcode Command Chair post
Give that a read.

I think mentioning that this is a Beta (even if open to the public) is still relevant (if redundant).

The netcode was near-perfect for anything moving below 32.4 KPH ("Sprinting speed" for the Nanosuit in Crysis 2) but it's movement prediction gets way out of whack at higher velocities as you can plainly see and exploit.

If you learn how to "predict" movement (although it isn't perfect when fighting a skilled "exploiter") you can still hit someone "exploiting" the current netcode. I've killed lots of commandos with my Large Lasers/SRMs. I know that this is a "work around" for the overall problem but the fact remains that the netcode is being worked on and they're taking their time to get it right the first time.

Side note: The work on the netcode will also include the re-introduction of collisions and tripping. The biggest fear for a light pilot before they removed this mechanic (I hope you played during that time) was becoming a victim of it. The time spent recovering from the fall made you have a huge bulls-eye on your helpless, lightly-armored 'Mech. I actually have a youtube video (2:12) of a Jenner pilot being intentionally tripped by myself only to be destroyed before recovering.

I feel that once the collisions, tripping, and netcode are fixed that the complaining about ECM (which, to be honest, isn't a "shield" for bullets/lasers/SRMs/Dumbfired LRMs) will subside.

I believe if I was in any of my Assault 'Mechs Vs your Raven you wouldn't last long even if you were exploiting the current netcode + ECM. None of my weapons require lock-on and I know how to predict your movement. I think of it like trajectory prediction. Similar to the skills snipers use to predict a bullet's travel time and where it will land in that time: "Leading the target".



tl;dr version - It's being actively worked on and they're taking their time to do it right and not hurriedly make a band-aid for a bigger problem.

Edited by CompproB237, 04 January 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[warp103]

Lonestar1771, on 03 January 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

What you say is true but has absolutely no bearing in this situation as it is rather obvious that he has no trouble forming sentences as evidenced by his later posts. It's more often than not laziness or ignorance as reasons to communicate ineffectively. They make typing systems for disabled not to mention most modern browsers include some form of spell check.

I'm not being callous just being honest. If you want someone to take you seriously than grammar and correct spelling are a must.

Now I did not initiate the hostility. He was the one who said to kiss his biracial butt (why he had to mention the fact he was bi-racial is beyond me). Now the whole point of the general discussion forum is to have a discussion about things and it's really hard to do so when people make incoherent posts. Sure I could have ignored it, but I chose not to. I'm not asking for perfect English as I know my own skills are lacking in the area, but is it wrong of me to expect some semblance of something that is readable, in a forum, without having to decipher it?

I see that you are still Trolling along. Three other have commented and you still are not getting the point.
If you had a issue, you first should have contacted me in a email. {That would have been smart and polite}
No you chose to be a {a n u s} and make it look as though you are smarter then me. You may wish to edit, some of your run on sentence structure in you above post.
I am by no means the smartest. My Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ. Ba of Sci. does not make me smartest either.{ Went NYC Street on you}. But I smart enough to Apologize for calling you out you name.
That I say "Sorry to you Sir". Edit apology rescinded {thanks to the person that emailed me his new post}
I am also smart enough to add you to the iggy list.
Have a good-day SMART guy.

Edited by warp103, 04 January 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

CompproB237, on 04 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I feel that once the collisions, tripping, and netcode are fixed that the complaining about ECM (which, to be honest, isn't a "shield" for bullets/lasers/SRMs/Dumbfired LRMs) will subside.

I don't think so, as the issues with ECM and the issues with the 'lagshield' are two different problems that just happen to combine in light, fast units which are almost all ECM users at this point. The issues with ECM include the Atlas, which does not have the netcode or collision problems.

The problems with ECM involve its effects on some weapons systems, broad abilities, lack of effective countermeasures, and that its use is without penalty or effort. None of these will be changed by collision or netcode corrections, so I can't see how those will change the ECM problems. Indeed, the only reason ECM is brought up in connection with the netcode issue is because introduction of ECM eliminated the means by which many players countered the 'lagshield', further aggrivating the issue, not causing it.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 04 January 2013 - 01:03 PM.

[jper4]

in the interest of being only slightly serious the most important question of all was sort of answered

Q: When are you planning to drop the news bombshell, ruining many people's hopes and dreams, that the Urbanmech will never, ever, ever, ever be in MWO? Cute little cockpit items don't count [Thontor]
A: They can announce that when I am cold and dead in the ground. [Garth]

Q: Garth, What would your custom hero mech be? [Ashnod]
A: Oh man, awesome question... How about two?

• NUMBER 1: UrbanMech - with XL engines, endosteel, and a max speed of _ninety_ KP/H. Has a PPC and two ML's. Torso twist 360. Torso twist speed is lightning fast. Paintscheme: My family tartan, with glowing neon-blue viewports.

and i think the graphics for that urbie should have the top of it's head flipped open while moving at 90kph as the trashcan lid is on the verge of falling off the mech.

you may now return to your ECM related replies for this thread. thank you.

[LionZoo]

Anyway, I don't think the "vocal minority" position being adopted by ECM is any more supported by facts. The assertion made is that people that think ECM is OP is complaining about it, but people that think ECM is fine are not posting. However, I find that, anecdotally, is simply not true. The guys I drop with almost universally (except for one player) think ECM is OP. However, very few of them post on the forums. This is simply because they have things that are higher priority than complaining about MWO on the forums (reflects poorly on me doesn't it?) and they'll probably stop playing the game from frustration before ever setting foot in the forum.

tl;dr - The assertion that a vocal minority think ECM is OP and a silent majority think it's okay is not supported facts. Instead, the only thing we know is that there is a vocal minority that cares enough about the game to share their thoughts on the forum that ECM is OP, and a silent majority that just doesn't care enough to share their feedback, whether positive or negative.

Edited by LionZoo, 04 January 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Lonestar1771]

warp103, on 04 January 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I see that you are till Trolling along. Three other have commented and you still are not getting the point.
If you had a issue you first should have contacted me in a email. {That would have been smart and polite}
No you chose to be a {a n u s} and make it look as though you are smarter then me. You may wish to edit, some of your run on sentence structure in you above post.
I am by no mean the smartest. My Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univ. Ba of Sci. does not make me smartest either.{ Went NYC Street on you} But I smart enough to Apologize for calling you out you name.
That I say "Sorry to you Sir".
I am also smart enough to add you to the iggy list.
Have a good-day SMART guy.

This post is exactly my point. You could be a certified genius, but with the nonsense you typed above I have no choice but to assume you have the education level of a 3rd grader. It's not me that is making you look ignorant, but yourself.

[warp103]

Ok, here is today short video of ECM. 4 lite mechs and other mechs murdering a Pug Team no ECM.

The only kill is by me killing a raven L {Not in video, that slows my FPS to far down}.

So for as I said seeing 3-4 ravens in a game normal.

Seeing them with ecm Equals Pugs P IMP Slap.

Any questions ?

Edited by warp103, 04 January 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[CompproB237]

Thontor, on 04 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

the only real effect ECM has is making streaks useless... And with the lag shield and no tripping, streaks are the easiest weapon to counter light mechs...

Take improve the net code and put back knockdowns, and suddenly lights are easily killed by lasers, ballistics, etc... And ECM is no good against them...

As for the Atlas... It doesn't even matter.. An Atlas with ECM is no more effective or harder to kill than an Atlas without ECM... Maybe a little more sneaky, but if you have a competent scout on your team, they will relay the position of that slow moving Atlas well before you engage.

Well, you could have an Atlas with the biggest Engine + Speed tweak then it wouldn't be "slow" persay. Also, the stock Atlas moves at 48.6 kph. Note: this is faster than 32.4 kph as I've stated previously. At the max possible speed (62.6 KPH) you're moving at nearly double (193.5%) the original netcode's max prediction speed. Therefore, you do have to lead the Atlas about one Atlas ahead. Being as it's a large target though, this usually isn't a problem... Like the Commando.

Jakob Knight, on 04 January 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I don't think so, as the issues with ECM and the issues with the 'lagshield' are two different problems that just happen to combine in light, fast units which are almost all ECM users at this point. The issues with ECM include the Atlas, which does not have the netcode or collision problems.

The problems most people have with ECM are compounding issues actually. Just as Thontor stated: People need to use Lock-on weapons to kill lights when they cannot lead their targets due to lag shield. You fix this and regular weapons (ballistics, SRMs, dumbfired LRMs, and lasers) suddenly hit their intended target. ECM doesn't reduce damage at all and therefore only really cuts off Streak SRMs and LRMs if you rely on lock-on. Once the ECM 'Mech is actually taking damage (like normal because lagshield, in this example, is fixed) it becomes just like any other 'Mech except it's "resistant" to Streak SRMs and LRMs. Last I checked, the 'Mechs with ECM don't have impressive armor and usually use XL Engines. If you can actually aim at the side torso where there's less armor that ECM problem goes poof in a hurry.

Jakob Knight, on 04 January 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

The problems with ECM involve its effects on some weapons systems, broad abilities, lack of effective countermeasures, and that its use is without penalty or effort.

Effects: Freaks out targetting (annoying... that's it), "makes you invisible" (TAG, LoS, and IFF), SSRMs + LRMs can't lock (oh no D: Until Tagged... and SSRMs are a symptom of the netcode mainly), (I've no real counter for "Broad Abilities" it really only makes you invisible and makes LRMs+SSRMs almost unuseable), ECM + Counter (if not enough, then focus the lightest mech down...), and ya I agree that it has no "downside" besides weighing 1.5 tons and using 2 crits (of which is a gamebreaker for some builds).

Jakob Knight, on 04 January 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

None of these will be changed by collision or netcode corrections, so I can't see how those will change the ECM problems. Indeed, the only reason ECM is brought up in connection with the netcode issue is because introduction of ECM eliminated the means by which many players countered the 'lagshield', further aggrivating the issue, not causing it.

Collision corrections will make lighter 'Mechs "Tripable" and therefore MUCH more vulnerable to "stationary target fire" which leads to... Netcode corrections will make the symptoms of the current system (need to use Streaks to take out lights due to inadequate target leading due to netcode) and difficulty hitting a fast 'Mech due to netcode.

I am not kidding. Once "Lagshield" and Collisions are added back in your complaints about ECM will essentially be reduced to: SSRMs don't work, LRMs don't lock (when none of my team has/uses TAG on the ECM 'Mech or none Counter it's ECM), and it makes the other enemy 'Mechs "invisible" (Heat Vision, IFF, and Teamwork). All of this simply falls down to Teamwork. This game and series revolves around teamwork. I agree that Voice Chat needs to be seemlessly integrated into the game client (Like many other multiplayer games, especially those requiring some form of teamwork -> TF2 comes to mind) which will help with team co-ordination.


I must reiterate one point that all the ECM complainers keep forgetting:
ECM does not stop bullets.



I'm going to stop responding to all the ECM complainers because I do not enjoy arguing with people that do not want to listen, nor Adapt.

Edited by CompproB237, 04 January 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[bootsv31]

It would be nice if at least Tag worked even within ECM range, that would give any mech a chance to counter ecm, if they cannot have it themselves.

[StalaggtIKE]

CompproB237, on 04 January 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

I feel that once the collisions, tripping, and netcode are fixed that the complaining about ECM (which, to be honest, isn't a "shield" for bullets/lasers/SRMs/Dumbfired LRMs) will subside.

However ECM will still be an issue because it is not balanced. Once collision and tripping is added this will make non-ECM mechs even lower on the totem pole. So not only ECM lights can eat them for breakfast but everyone else can force a collision and pick on them. Perhaps it will finally become obvious once the only light mechs on the battlefield are COM-2D and RVN-3L.

BTW: Thanks for the link.

[StalaggtIKE]

@ CompproB237: Let's say LRM and SSRM are completely stripped from the game; ECM is still unbalanced. The stealth bonus is just that good. Being unspottable up until within 200m is a huge advantage, when you can still spot your enemy from 800m. That means you have access to intel on weapons and armament way before your target can. ECM disrupts collaborated attacks; the strategy of focus firing on weak armor is removed. For instance - Yes, you can still use voice chat and focus on the Atlas's left arm, however if you had access to intel on the enemy Atlas you might have found out he had a weak armorless right arm and not wasted so much time on the left one. Or close range brawling with a Stalker under the cover of ECM, to later find he was boating SRMs! Again if he wasn't stealthed you would have known before hand and handled accordingly. You can't possibly see how this is not a disadvantage!?

Currently ECM is essentially providing bonus from future techs, Stealth armor and Null signature, for itself and the whole team under their umbrella! To top it off it's without any of the disadvantages. Both Stealth armor and Null signature require around 7 crit space a piece and produce heat while activated.

When you finally factor in missiles, ECM becomes mandatory for a "fair" fight; or one side will have free reign of LRM and SSRM. This forces the other team to setup TAG in order to use missiles. I agree that ECM does not stop bullets, but you can't hit what you can't see. LRM are indirect weapons, anyone with a bit of intelligence will exploit that against a team without ECM, ie. they're not going to give a you chance to hit them with bullets. LRM and SSRM are easy mode weapons, which should have been fixed instead. Introducing ECM as a band-aid was a bad move.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 January 2013 - 06:07 PM.