29 replies to this topic

[torgian]

So a couple of things.

I supported this game hoping it will become something excellent. Perhaps it will at some point. But until then, I won't be spending money on this beyond what I've spent to become a Founder.

I'm sure many people know about the gripes about this game, but I feel like it's starting to push people away from playing and spending money on it. And yes, we want people to spend money on this game so it'll get supported, but obviously not in a manner that's going to be detrimental to the player base... but that's another discussion.

My main gripe with this game is that it's starting to feel like a cross between Mechwarrior 4 and Mechwarrior 3. I'm happy that every weapon does deal some sort of damage that is noticeable, where in MW4, everyone used large lasers or gauss rifles up the buttox (and it stung harder than a bee).

Yet, I'm dissapointed that, while damage is the same as tabletop, every mech has a crap ton of armor, even the lights. I should be able to go internal with a couple of large laser hits on many of the light mechs, yet I'm constantly shooting them repeatedly just to GO internal. I understand that the mechs are essentially "buffed" to provide a longer round of play, yet it makes many of the weapons feel ineffective and worthless at the same time. It's not exciting to know that you can shrug off several hits from different weapon types before you have to start worrying about it. Mechs should be more fragile than they are in this game. Hell, even an AC 20 doesn't seem that devastating anymore, at least if you're in a larger mech.

Again, I know that this is probably made intentionally so that each round of play doesn't end in a minute or two. And yet, I can't help but feel like making them more fragile would make gameplay much more intense and enjoyable. For example, in tabletop, the Catapult C1 has 24 points of armor on its center torso, stock. In MWO, it's double that. Can you imagine how people will feel knowing that two hits from a PPC to the CT will shred almost all their armor? And all of a sudden, that hunchback's AC20 looks a LOT more dangerous than it does now.

The game also feels like MW3's multiplayer. To an extent, it also feels a bit like Mechwarrior 2 mulitplayer, and I say this due to the netcode. Lights are nigh invulnerable at the moment for many players, especially Ravens. But I have also noticed that on heavier mechs, I had to lead depending on the latency. I can deal with a little bit of leading, but when a mech becomes much harder to damage due to the netcode itself and the mech's speed... well, I think everyone can draw their own conclusions with that.

Well, I guess this turned into a sort of mini-rant to make myself feel better (hah!) but either way... I think that many who had expected this game to be better than it is right now are starting to be quite disappointed.

I'm still going to play, and i'm still going to hold hope that the game gets better over time... but you won't be getting anymore of my money until I start to see it getting better.

At this point I feel like I can only glean more enjoyment from this game if I joined a Unit, but even then there isn't a real good matchmaking service in place.

Maybe you can focus on that next?

[hashinshin]

the biggest problem is coming to terms with the fact that Mechwarrior is not Battletech.

So many battletech players want to come here and every single one of them has a different expectation of what this game should be. Some want the feeling of battletech invoked, some of them just want to see weapons do exactly their battletech values and ********** to it. Some of them really just don't care.

[Pariah Devalis]

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/

Matchmaking phase 3, incorporating ELO to balance players of like skill.

http://mwomercs.com/...mber-18th-2012/

States it should be in mid January.

http://mwomercs.com/...56#entry1497356

Netcode related.

They still have a small team. Should these issues have been addressed more aggressively? Absolutely, and it is a shame they were not. However, they are being worked on now. It is not something you can just snap your fingers into existence.

Edit: And to be brutally honest, MW3's code was better. At least the amount of lead was fairly consistent. Of course, then it turned into Double UAC20 Online.....

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 January 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[xRaeder]

My only expectation as a Battletech fan is to ... have actual battles instead of Solaris VII every match. We're playing a PC game... not a limited system such as Xbox Live.

I expect more players... and so should you.

[verybad]

TT game balance isn't there. People that expect it to show up magically have to remember that the mere inclusion of game balancing systems like Battle Value means that the weapons and mechs aren't balanced on their own merit. It has to be weighted.

The lights don't have more armor than you might expect, you're simply not hitting them as often as you think due to lag. (Yes, very simliar to MW3)

Mechs aren't buffed, consider that none of the weapons takes 10 seconds to reload, what that means is that the offensive systems are scaled over the course of ten sconds in regards to TT play. Armor is also scaled to match essentially.

In TT, slow moving mechs can often kill eachother in about 40 seconds worth of ingame time (4 turns) This wouldn't make for a good video game.

The main problems at this time are NOT due to game design (ie balancing) but netcode, which is a technical issue, not a philosophical one.. Of course theyr'e working on it, it's not something you can point at and automatically fix however.

Edited by verybad, 01 January 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[torgian]

I didn't know about the matchmaking update, hope it comes to fruition and works well. And I understand that these things take time, but I was hoping for better (not necessarily more) progress.

[verybad]

xRaeder, on 01 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

My only expectation as a Battletech fan is to ... have actual battles instead of Solaris VII every match. We're playing a PC game... not a limited system such as Xbox Live.

I expect more players... and so should you.

Considering that all mechs carry far more weapons than typical FPS games, and each of those weapons has to be tracked over the server, then your expectations are not based in reality. 12 player teams will probably be implemented at some time, but larger is very unlikley.

[torgian]

verybad, on 01 January 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

TT game balance isn't there. People that expect it to show up magically have to remember that the mere inclusinong of game balancing systems like Battle Value means that the weapons and mechs aren't balanced on their own merit.

The lights don't have more armor than you might expect, you're simply not hitting them as often as you think due to lag. (Yes, very simliar to MW3)

Mechs aren't buffed, consider that none of the weapons takes 10 seconds to reload, what that means is that the offensive systems are scaled over the course of ten sconds in regards to TT play. Armor is also scaled to match essentially.

In TT, slow moving mechs can often kill eachother in about 40 seconds worth of ingame time (4 turns) This wouldn't make for a good video game.

The main problems at this time are NOT due to game design (ie balancing) but netcode, which is a technical issue, not a philosophical one.. Of course theyr'e working on it, it's not something you can point at and automatically fix however.

Again, I have to disagree.

I'm not sure if many people here have played mechwarrior 2 multiplayer (known as netmech or kali back in the day) but those mechs felt much more fragile than they do today. A single salvo from an LRM 20 (which you could successfully dodge if you were doing well) could shred your armor in half or more if all the missles hit. These matches DID last less than a minute in many cases, sometimes two or three, but they were still a lot of fun.

As for mechs not being buffed, considering this game's mechanics I would have to agree on that point. Still, technically they are buffed, and I stand by my previous statement.

Of course, I understand that doing so will not make a good game in today's world. Can you imagine the number of players screaming about how overpowered LRMs are if they essentially made every mech's armor and internal tables reflect tabletop? Then there would be massive de-buffs and we would end up back to where we are today. I acknowledge that possibility, but I do feel that it can be explored and who knows, it could succeed.

I doubt it is something that will be done, although I CAN see the possibility of a "hardcore" league forcing everyone to reflect tabletop armor points and loadouts. Hardcore "stock only" leagues have been created in the past, so perhaps that's an option that can be explored for players that want a more "tabletop" feel, so to speak.

See, I like discussions, it gives me ideas ^.^

[xRaeder]

verybad, on 01 January 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Considering that all mechs carry far more weapons than typical FPS games, and each of those weapons has to be tracked over the server, then your expectations are not based in reality. 12 player teams will probably be implemented at some time, but larger is very unlikley.

Considering WW2OL was able to accomplish more than this game did at launch all the way back in 2001 with the same funding level I'd have to say you are wrong.

[verybad]

MW2, even with modern graphics, wouldn't be popular today. It is remembered fondly because there were very few games out in it's time. For it's time, it WAS a great game. Today's player wouldnt' accept some of the aspects it had however. Instakilling players because the offensive system is so much stronger than the defensive system...Sorry, doesn't make you feel like you're in a big mech. Also, you can't take away auiming in a modern game. MW2 didn't have aiming at locations, it was pretty random.

The game mechanics were primitive, and while it had a lot of good ideas, the nostalgia factor often blinds people to how awful directly followng some of BT's board game rules in a real time game can result in. Those problems were ok in it's time, MW2's time is far past however.

(I loved it in it's time also)

[BerryChunks]

The problem is in the same vein as my statements. It's about the modularity system, which was the reason people put 12 medium pulse lasers on shadowcats in MW3, and why MW4 had a similar arcade vibe.

People complain that with more restriction we'd be harming their min/maxing, and that the game is fine as is, and for some reason, playing with stock variants is bad thing. One reason they cite is the bad heat management of stock mechs, not realizing the problem is cyclical.


People make 6 SRM cats. Devs bump armor up so people can live longer, bump heat management up so that SRMs cant be fired as often.

effects:

destroys stock variants heat control, and heat control of any mech of similar low weapon count/high damage design. Those ER lasers are right out of the park. Large pulse laser? You get better efficiency just boating mass mediums.

Its a recursive effect, and the people that are against the idea of restrictions because they dont want people to ruin their fun, are not realizing this.

IF:

Mechs had less weapons to field,

AND

light, medium, heavy, and assault mechs HAD to balance small, medium, large weaponry in accordance with their size and other constraints, such that they can only have 3,4,5, (or whatever number of whatever power level of weapon is reasonable for X size mech) of any particular weapon set THEN

all mechs could have their armor reduced back to where it should be versus weapon damage.
Double Heat Sink nerf could be removed.
Chassis wouldnt just be skins over which 6 SRM6 or MPL are mounted.

hashinshin, on 01 January 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

the biggest problem is coming to terms with the fact that Mechwarrior is not Battletech.

So many battletech players want to come here and every single one of them has a different expectation of what this game should be. Some want the feeling of battletech invoked, some of them just want to see weapons do exactly their battletech values and ********** to it. Some of them really just don't care.

The biggest problem is Mechwarrior fanboys comiing to terms with the fact that mechwarrior is battletech. The former would not exist without the latter. So stuff yourself.

Are you riding in a 100 ton atlas?
You're playing Battletech.
Are you shooting a Medium laser?
You're playing Battletech.
Are you Firing PPCs?
You're playing Battletech.

Need I go on, ignorant one?

[iller]

If the OP honestly thinks TTK is too long on the Scout mechs, I'd ecourage him to go replay several rounds as a TRIAL scout mech and see exactly how "long" it actually is compared to a Heavy/Assault. (especially when there's SRM boats & Aimbotters now everywhere zipping around in "2-alpha-kill" Anti-Scouts)

There's plenty of reasons to not support this game right now but none of them are tied to it being too much like "Mercs 4" or having too long of a TTK. Maybe the Game is just too much Pay-2-Win if you're seeing super pimped out FOTM Mechs living 4x longer than the Trial Mechs... EVER CONSIDERED THAT? No... O/c not b/c Founders have perks to bypass that painful reality. Whereas Mercs'4 was probably the most fun I ever got out of a Mech game for years and years at a time just like Mercs'2 and I didn't even have to play Multiplayer to keep coming back to it. This game on the other hand?.... I can't play it. It took way too long to unlock anything, which would have been fine (b/c I've BEEN enduring the massive grind towards 3500 certs in Planetside2 for an entire month, FYI) if the Matches were actually fun to be in like most "Private server" Shooters out there with real team-scramlbing but teams were always so stacked that there was no point in doing anything besides dying instantly and taking your lousy Trial 60k Cbills to the next match if you didn't end up on the Pre-Made stack team = ZERO Replayability. ...Mercs'4 had had incredible replayability! A Pox on you and your Mech for dragging its name through the mud

Edited by iller, 01 January 2013 - 04:38 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

iller, on 01 January 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

There's plenty of reasons to not support this game right now but none of them are tied to it being too much like "Mercs 4" or having too long of a TTK. Maybe the Game is just too much Pay-2-Win if you're seeing super pimped out FOTM Mechs living 4x longer than the Trial Mechs... EVER CONSIDERED THAT? No... O/c not b/c Founders have perks to bypass that painful reality.

Not a founder, but I can see you live in a far away world not quite like reality given this statement. None, not one, not a single, solitary one of the Hero mechs offer improved survivability to their C-Bill cousins. Some Hero mechs, like YLW, are arguably WORSE then the other options available for in game credit purchasing. I assume you referenced the hero mechs for the pay to win argument, given they are the only ones you NEED to pay to own.

And even without hero mechs, of COURSE a fully customized mech will kick the heck out of a stock mech! But, guess what? Anyone can trick out a mech in their first 25 games with the cadet bonuses! Easily! Unless they go for an assault out the door, that is. Ya wanna know the real kicker, though? Some of the stock mechs, like the 4SP, are virtually identical to pimped out ones, except more heat efficient and faster. If the pilot is any good, they can still compete with their upgraded brethren. Not easily, but whatever.

Short of a STOCK ONLY game mode, mech customization has and always will be a function of Mechwarrior and Battletech.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 January 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

They had stock armor on mechs, it was not fun. Everyone died way too fast. They doubled armor to compensate and it is much better. The main problem is that, in TT, weapons always hit a random location, you could not (usually) focus on a specific spot on a mech. All weapons used a random hit chart to determine where the damage would be applied. That is why "boating" 9 medium lasers was not a problem in TT.

In MWO those same 9 medium lasers will all hit the exact same spot. That makes them *far* more effective than they are in TT, and the armor values had to be adjusted. It would not be as fun (IMO, and I believe, in the opinion of most players) for all of our damage to be randomly distributed accross an enemy mech like LRMs/SRMs currently are. Pilot skill makes a big difference in this game, and it should. But with standard armor on a mech no one would last long enough to actually enjoy the game.

[Carnivoris]

It just sounds like you want MWO to be a CoD-clone one-hit-kill type game. No thanks. They need to balance the game so it's fun and works as a video game, not just copy the TT numbers and let it ride. If they did, no one would play anything but atlases. Stop with your video version of the tabletop game wet dreams. It's just not possible with a video game. There are some big changes and fixes coming in 2 weeks. Let's save our pitchforks till then.

[BatWing]

@ Torgian:

I see your point. i feel like you very often regarding this game. I am a huge fan of Mechwarrior and Battletech, however the 2 things are not the same.

Something missing to any MW game is a Disclosure such as "INSPIRED FROM BATTLETECH UNIVERSE".

"Inspired" is the right word, because TT cannot be used for an interactive videogame, it simply doesn t work.

We do not have 10 seconds rounds and we do not have random dice rolls to establish where you hit.

We DO have player skills, aim and tactical behavior, movement and awareness, on a real time interactive world. Weapons and Armor have to be "re-Invented" based on this reality, not TT.

Then we have technical issues, related to bad Netcode and Lagshield. TT never had any of those.

So these are the most important things to look at. In my opinion, besides the Inspiration, no other comparisons should be made between TT and videogame.

Then comes the Battletech Universe. When you read the Battletech novels, you will never see every combat being Lances of 4 Atlases and 3 Ravens, all of them ECM. That is not Battletech, that is the community Bullzshit that we see every dau in this game.

Try to drop on a 8 vs 8 man drop, where they say "it is competitive". Competitive my Arse. There is no competition dropping with 2 mech models only because are actually just the most powerful around. That is just spoiling a game, no competition.

The Battletech Universe should be in the game, dictating the Tech limits. How rare and expensive is some technology. How the real fights in the Inner Sphere were fought with very strict limits of availability.

There are no limits in this game. They also removed (I hope temporarily) the Repair and Rearm.

I am hovering on my 35 Milion CBs and it will grow up because I have no expenses and everything is available to everyone. I have more XP than I could ever use.

This game at the moment has no meaning and no sense. Playing on 4 Maps is just enormously boring.

I don t know where game is going, but actually doesn t seem to go anywhere close toward the DEVs promises when they launched the project.

They were talking about a Mech Sim, close to the HardCore Battletech fans. Big words, little facts. They probably underestimated how the Large Community is NOT HardCore and how is made of whiners and Cry babies.

Just reading the forum in general is a revolting show of complains ranging every single aspect of the game. Devs had to modify their original path to comply with that. however they are not even delivering the basic product.

If they don t start offering at least a New map per month, this game is dead before even getting out of BETA stage.

I will play this game in a way more "casual" manner. I am already doing that. I refuse to drop those ridicolouse 8-man drops, because i am not going to play a game that is not responding to the basic concepts of the Battletech universe.

Lights with Lagshield will feel different when they will put Collisions back. However, it is so poor quality job that to fix collisions is taking so long.

I feel the game was way more true to itself at early Closed Beta stage. The more is going forward the more is departing from the true roots.

It just sucks...

[J0anna]

There's more they can do then just fixing the netcode and putting collisions back in. Had they stayed closer to TT rules, the game would have better balance. In TT running generates heat, thus mechs running around would be suffering from higher base heat and would be less inclined to do it. Add in the fact that running and turning on a paved, wet or icy surface resulted in the possibility of falling (and falling/sliding damage) people would be far less inclined to participate in the "circles of death" as you'd probably fall and hurt yourself. The net effect would be to slow the game down and remove the impact of 'weak netcode'.

Doubling the armor on mechs also results in shifting weapon damage importance from 'alpha' to 'dps', thus requiring PGI to balance weapons around dps, and involving far more trial and error on their part. But props to them, they are working on it.

[Mazikar]

This game for some reason is limiting itself to small battles and as of right now.. it is just fighting for F☺cks sake. Im getting bored, I have all the builds I want already and no reason to play... I dont feel like I am getting anything more than c-bills and everyone knows that c-bills is nothing to MC, all things cool are going to be tied to MC.

[ODonovan]

Moenrg, on 01 January 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

In TT running generates heat, thus mechs running around would be suffering from higher base heat and would be less inclined to do it. Add in the fact that running and turning on a paved, wet or icy surface resulted in the possibility of falling (and falling/sliding damage) people would be far less inclined to participate in the "circles of death" as you'd probably fall and hurt yourself. The net effect would be to slow the game down and remove the impact of 'weak netcode'.

I would LOVE to see this!!! Just to see some little speed demon try to make a turn and miss would gladden my old heart, especially if he slid to a stop right in front of a big enemy 'mech.



-Irish

Edited by ODonovan, 01 January 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[Ashnod]

Triple weapon fire rate + buffed damage on some weapons requires increased armor, I've still watched mechs melt in a couple of seconds (assaults at that as well)

ODonovan, on 01 January 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I would LOVE to see this!!! Just to see some little speed demon try to make a turn and miss would gladden my old heart, especially if he slid to a stop right in front of a big enemy 'mech.



-Irish

And than people would whine about RNG even though I wouldn't mind seeing this for all mechs, as well as through armor criticals.. And quicksand(sigh j/k on quicksand)