79 replies to this topic

[Serapth]

Martini Henrie, on 03 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Oh god, this again? The big bad wolf scaring you unreasonably? Not every stomp involves a TS team on the other side. It happens all the time when I pug, it's just the pattern of the game. Unless you have capable players on both teams it will difficult to consistently get 8-7 games (it's great fun cheering for the last two to drag their scrap heaps into action).

If it was such a boogeyman, people wouldnt be complaining about it with such consistency. Hell, apply the band-aid fix if only just so everyone knows it WAS skill that spanked them, not some boogieman they are making up. You throw a premade on each team and the question mark goes away completely.

You can generally tell a PuG based on a few simple facts. First is how the game loads... when you see a 4 person headstart on the loading screen, you generally can tell you are facing a premade, and this happens fairly often. But it is even easier to detect in a game... ALL PuG games, especially when you get the better pugs, take a few seconds to get coordinated. When you see a group of 4+ mechs immediately hit a waypoint, you generally are dealing with a premade.

[iller]

Wizard Steve, on 03 January 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

The player base isn't big enough to split.

Bull *bleeping* horse *bleep*, IOW in more polite terms: Your post is ill-informed, purely a random assumption, and you provide no playerbase numbers to back it up. ... the current Queue against premades takes fractions of a second usually. More advanced matchmaking using ELO subroutines in some other games that are older than this one, take 10-30 seconds because those tend to split players up for a Dozen different Criteria(s) . While Pure-Random vs. random only divides by a single Criteria and would still seem instantaneous in this game as long as they impliment it quickly before they hemorrhage too many more puggers.

What all you really mean to say, is that you don't want to have to face eachother's premades because then your own pool of matchmaking will gradually shrink b/c a lot of people only go through the effort to stay organized in groups to WIN and that's really easy against Randoms. Meanwhile the Random Arenas will flourish on their own and leave your organized pool to whither since newbs & pubstars alike won't be required to jump through the same hoops of joining hardcore clans to win more games than they lose. ...Seen it happen in every game that segregates the two populations. So much unnecessary jealousy of the Random Arena from the "wolves" who can only take down sheep and get scared at the prospect of taking on other wolves...



Obviously PGI supports this as well as we see in their matchmaking phases... and they'll invest 1000's of manhours into it and drag out and process of "Ranked" matchmaking with patch after patch that never quite gets it right the first time like straight-up segregation would have. ...Just to retain that "Tier" system that eventualy forces puggers to join clans b/c why have all these guild/alliegiance systems in the first place if they merely felt "optional" to everyone who just wants to win a few in a row while playing the game casually?? (Rhetorical question, don't answer). To sum it up: A Queue that takes even longer, and really benefits no one except for the weaker wolf packs.

Edited by iller, 03 January 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Oinkage]

Serapth, on 03 January 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Considering the game doesn't even have pre/post match chatting... that day seems a long way away. Until then, apply the band-aid.

Also, if they game does in fact go clan only, it will die fast. I know there are certain players that would absolutely love a hardcore only game, but they will be the only ones playing. Now, if they start adding better social features, that make it easier for non-premade groups to communicate, or add better mechanics for making adhoc groups, I thoroughly support this. But we are a long way from there.

It is not going clan only, but every match will affect the 'landscape' of the inner sphere. I'm guessing you either forgot the vision PGI has for the game at release for community warfare or you are not aware of it.

http://mwomercs.com/...mmunity-warfare

As a non 'clan' player, you will choose a faction and the results of the battles you participate in will affect that faction.

Edited by Oinkage, 03 January 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[Kunae]

People learn best by getting their butts whupped.

They've already sped up the ability of new players to get mechs of their own. They've also nerfed the ability of friends to play with each other in groups beyond 4.

You will never be satisfied. PGI should stop trying to placate you, and those like you, and concentrate on making this the best, bug-free, game possible.

The only true solution, for those such as the OP, is to Learn to Play, and Learn to Play with Others.

[Serapth]

Kunae, on 03 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

People learn best by getting their butts whupped.

They've already sped up the ability of new players to get mechs of their own. They've also nerfed the ability of friends to play with each other in groups beyond 4.

You will never be satisfied. PGI should stop trying to placate you, and those like you, and concentrate on making this the best, bug-free, game possible.

The only true solution, for those such as the OP, is to Learn to Play, and Learn to Play with Others.

Look at my total post count ( was 2 before this day... )... yes, I am apparently a chronic complainer....

You know why I generally dont post on these forums... well, dicks mostly. Not saying you are one, but I am not saying you aren't either.

Edited by Serapth, 03 January 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[a rabid chihuahua]

Why must we kill all the "People of Ungodly Greatness"?

[Hipshot]

Its all about ratios imo.

In general a 4-man premade group in an 8 man team are just to coordinated to be absorbed by random events and PUG-fire. When 50% of the team is focused on one objective or target things tend to hapen quickly in MWO. The 4-man team will in most cases have a huge impact on the final result and advantage over the rest of the players (prove me wrong PGI).

In WoT for instance they limit the number of friends you can bring to a 15 man team to 3. That is 20% of the team vs MWOs 50%. A 15 man team can soak up both PUGs and premades without making either topple the game. Sure any 15 man team can theoretically consist of five 3-man teams, but coordination between the premades are just as bad as with PUGs so usually it pans out nicely.

PGI, look at what works in other games...

[Martini Henrie]

Serapth, on 03 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Snipperooney

Well, that's your opinion, I don't usually have the same issues. But then I don't care about pre or not made, I just make the most of what I get dropped with. ELO will make a difference when it hits, but I also know that the stomping will go on, and another excuse will be found...

I see no need to split the player base, as I know that further division is bad for this game

[Horned Bull]

Actually the easiest way to fix things would be... Giving us a real lobby, with player created rooms. So then we could have "no pubs/no premades/no ECM/no LRM/no lights/no [xxx RUINED MWO]" rooms.

On the down side some people would probably abuse the system to make their grind faster.

Edited by Korm, 03 January 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Serapth]

Martini Henrie, on 03 January 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

I see no need to split the player base, as I know that further division is bad for this game

... did you read the thread?

[Serapth]

Korm, on 03 January 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Actually the easiest way to fix things would be... Giving us a real lobby, with player created rooms. So then we could have "no pubs/no premades/no ECM/no LRM/no lights/no [xxx RUINED MWO]" rooms.

On the down side some people would probably abuse the system to make their grind faster.

Just to be clear, I am not proposing a solution, I am proposing a fix. There is a big difference. In the long run, I am not recommend keeping my proposed fix... hopefully when ELO comes along and there are better ingame communications between PuGers, these problems become moot. These solutions though, they seem a long way off. In the meantime, we've seen additions, like ECM, that actually shift the game even more strongly in favour of premades. I can only imagine how many newbies ( and general puggers ) they are bleeding right now. Frankly if my founder time wasn't counting down, I would shelve the game until they fixed it.

[iller]

Korm, on 03 January 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Actually the easiest way to fix things would be... Giving us a real lobby, with player created rooms. So then we could have "no pubs/no premades/no ECM/no LRM/no lights/no [xxx RUINED MWO]" rooms.

On the down side some people would probably abuse the system to make their grind faster.

Tribes Ascend which has an almost identical monetization & arena/role platform to this game, is currently experimenting with this as well. They already have a couple privately funded servers that communities are starting to build around giving them a real alternative finally to the Pub servers. I don't like any of the other directions they're headed in but thought this was relevant and something to keep an eye on... (esp for anyone who's a clan-leader or one of the Devs)

Edited by iller, 03 January 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Martini Henrie]

Serapth, on 03 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

... did you read the thread?

Oh, right. Are you going to turn into one of the then, hey? You might trouble yourself to read the thread too, you may discover that there has been the odd post mooring this point.

Oh, well. There goes another possible decent poster down the drain.

A final point, in the stickies there is a list of free TS servers for players to use. Why not try? I can understand that there is not always time, I have the same issues, but for the greater part of my gaming time I drop in fours or eights when possible.

Edited by Martini Henrie, 03 January 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[Serapth]

Martini Henrie, on 03 January 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Oh, right.  Are you going to turn into one of the then, hey?  You might trouble yourself to read the thread too, you may discover that there has been the odd post mooring this point.

Oh, well.  There goes another possible decent poster down the drain.

There are a number of posts in this thread saying EXACTLY that this isn't about splitting the queue.  In fact my OP specifically stated the faults with creating a second queue is not the answer.

If you are talking about a tertiary point to the OP, you might consider using the quote so people know what the hell you are talking about.  

EDIT: Removed a small bit of snark, and answering your edit.

I've played Teamspeak, I on occasion play teamspeak ( and therefore know just how much of an advantage it is ), but I like many others dont want to have to use a 3rd party communication system to play the game.  My personal reasons are Im the father of a young child.  When I play I may potentially have to drop everything.  More to the point, alienating the more casual player base for something easily fixed just seems silly.

Edited by Serapth, 03 January 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[Carl Hauser]

Davers, on 03 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Simple fix? Yes. Good solution? No.

Can we all just be patient a little while longer to see if ELO matchmaking works?

ELO matchmaking does not work in that game. It is a waste of time even to think about it.
An ELO sytem is fine for games like an free for all FPS shooter where all have the same weapons and armor.

In MWO it is: Teamplay(calling targets) > Tech you use (ECM/Streaks) > Mech class(Hunch or Atlas) > Playerskill (Elo)

You should match first:
(1) groupsize: single player / groupsize
(2) Tech: number of ECM / streaks and whatever you think is OP
(3) mechclass: heavy / assault etc.
(4) and if you still have nothing else to match add the ELO but this is the least important thing

[Elandyll]

For people with reading comprehension problems: The OP Is -NOT- advocating for a PUG only queue (although like him I think it would be ideal).

The OP is for equalizing the battlefield by asking that IF A PREMADE IS INVOLVED, THEN THE MATCHMAKING WILL PUT A PREMADE OF EQUAL OR NEAR EQUAL NUMBERS ON THE OTHER SIDE.

There. Done. Easy.

And if in last resort no other premade is found after 20 seconds (yeah, right), then the match will proceed with only PUGers.

Instead of that, for now, we have premades generally facing a bunch of trial newbs, or pre-mades sync-dropping still far too often (you can generally -not always- tell oh so easily with those shiny patches on the scoreboard).

Edited by Elandyll, 03 January 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Kousagi]

Hipshot, on 03 January 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

In WoT for instance they limit the number of friends you can bring to a 15 man team to 3. That is 20% of the team vs MWOs 50%. A 15 man team can soak up both PUGs and premades without making either topple the game. Sure any 15 man team can theoretically consist of five 3-man teams, but coordination between the premades are just as bad as with PUGs so usually it pans out nicely.

PGI, look at what works in other games...

The problem with that part is that in WoT that theory falls apart when the 3 man group is the 3 biggest tanks on the team, and can pretty much go 3v15 if they have enough brains. So long as they are able to make their counterparts dead, the rest of the team is easy pickings due to the way the tier system works. Its pretty common in tier 7-8 and lower. Heck I remember back when the KV-3 was counted as a T6 tank i think it was, That thing was a GOD on the battlefield in its tier range, So was the KV but not to the same level the KV-3 was.

But back to topic... OP, why fix something that is not broken? Theres not as many Premade groups as you think there is. Just cause your team gets rolled over does not mean theres a group on the other team. I pug quite a bit and its rare to run in to a premade group. Half the time when my team rolls over the other group its just for the simple fact that we all stuck together.

[One Medic Army]

Serapth, on 03 January 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

You can generally tell a PuG based on a few simple facts. First is how the game loads... when you see a 4 person headstart on the loading screen, you generally can tell you are facing a premade, and this happens fairly often. But it is even easier to detect in a game... ALL PuG games, especially when you get the better pugs, take a few seconds to get coordinated. When you see a group of 4+ mechs immediately hit a waypoint, you generally are dealing with a premade.

Not true, not true in the slightest.
First off, I play both premade and PUG.
When I premade it becomes clear that who shows up on the screen and in what order is a function of load times. I will frequently show up on the player order far above the rest of my group, and some of them will be down as 7th or 8th player.
When I PUG I generally try and coordinate the group, by asking/suggesting a basic plan, which helps the team as a whole stay coordinated. Things like "Going Epsilon to Theta" on a conquest map, or "Going towards G line" on River City Assault mode.
Even the people who don't read/listen usually end up following the rest of the pack.

Edited by One Medic Army, 03 January 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[jakucha]

All they really have to do is make a good ELO/Matchmaking system and add it in, which they're working on. Premades are unnecessary and there likely aren't enough for every game.

Edited by jakucha, 03 January 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[Serapth]

Kousagi, on 03 January 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

But back to topic... OP, why fix something that is not broken? Theres not as many Premade groups as you think there is.

Source please? You have as much evidence supporting your claim as I do. My fix however would remove it as a factor completely.

I can tell the difference between a team getting rolled because they were stupid, and a team getting rolled because they were facing a team communicating a hell of a lot better. Trust me, I play a lot, especially with my founder bonus ticking down...

Edited by Serapth, 03 January 2013 - 02:45 PM.