23 replies to this topic

[DerHuhnTeufel]

After several matches using 3 flamethrowers, I have been unable to cause even trial mechs to overheat.

Including the ones that overheat in 2 shots.

I really did it as a joke (it's a commando named "troll"), but as far as I can tell flamethrowers add absolutely no heat to the enemy. Even on caustic against a 4x large laser stalker, I overheated before he did, and it takes a long, long time to overheat when all you're doing is firing 3 flamethrowers.

[PiemasterXL]

Flamers are broken at the moment good sir.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

PiemasterXL, on 05 January 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Flamers are broken at the moment good sir.

That's what I thought. It's pretty hilarious getting 7 kill assists and dealing 7 damage, though.

[Sovery_Simple]

9 flamers puts the enemies base heat up by about 31% (forest colony normal i think, with a stationary cataphract, forgot his HS #), wheras 18 flamers put another mech on river city up to about 41%, so while we lack exact info (especially about what engines, and number of HS's in the target mechs, with ambient heat levels being included), it seems they have severe diminishing returns. That said, the base heat level is instantly applied, you don't have to keep the flamers going, just tap the enemy with them and they go up to that base. Then if they say, alpha again, they instantly shut down.

DerHuhnTeufel, on 05 January 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

That's what I thought. It's pretty hilarious getting 7 kill assists and dealing 7 damage, though.

They do actually deal damage now, though they like to spread it all over the enemy mech to a degree,

[NRP]

I see some people using these and I think "LOL, seriously?" It always seems like a last, desperate act before they die.

[Gigastrike]

Flamers cause 3 times as much heat for you than they do your opponent, and the maximum amount of them that you could fit on a mech (9) would only build up about as much heat on the enemy mech as a large laser would.

[Chavette]

Gigastrike, on 05 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Flamers cause 3 times as much heat for you than they do your opponent, and the maximum amount of them that you could fit on a mech (9) would only build up about as much heat on the enemy mech as a large laser would.

It doesnt make any sense, they used flamethrowers in real war, and the ones shooting it positively didnt have it as bad as the ones on the otherside.

[Dirus Nigh]

Flamers will cause you to over heat rather well. The target not so much.

[Capt Jester]

I'm pretty sure they add 0.2 heat to the enemy mech for every 0.4 damage done, but I can't say for sure.

[Wrenchfarm]

Yeah, they're busted.

Personally I'm ok with that. Can you imagine how annoying it would be if a 6 flamer Jenner could just sneak up behind your Atlas and shut you off at will? The whole game would devolve to a race to make the other dude shutdown.

Whereas I can see a solution to making MGs interesting and at lease somewhat viable, I can't really see a way to make flamers useful. I wouldn't want to see them do too much damage since they would put small lasers out of a job or build up too much heat in the opposing mech. It's a quandary.

[Valrock]

I wouldn't mind seeing flamers actually reduce the heat of the mech firing them, and seeing their effectiveness scale with the heat of the mech. So a very hot mech running >90% heat would have a very effective flamer burst, while a cool mech would have an ineffective burst. This way the weapon would be venting heat from the firing mech's engine, rather than generating heat to be fired.

[Outfoxed]

Sounds rather paradoxicle. That said you fire flame throwers, though it make cool your engine for a time, if you keep them on it would heat the air arround your machine and the limbs that are firing them.

On the usfulness of flamers though, I feel its only real use is as a brawler the fear that it instills when they are like "OMG this guy handy-caps himself with a flamer so I am a challenge. He must be AWESOME!" Oh and when they cannot see anything because of all the roaring flames.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Wrenchfarm, on 06 January 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Yeah, they're busted.

Personally I'm ok with that. Can you imagine how annoying it would be if a 6 flamer Jenner could just sneak up behind your Atlas and shut you off at will? The whole game would devolve to a race to make the other dude shutdown.

Whereas I can see a solution to making MGs interesting and at lease somewhat viable, I can't really see a way to make flamers useful. I wouldn't want to see them do too much damage since they would put small lasers out of a job or build up too much heat in the opposing mech. It's a quandary.

Well, it would mean you'd have a mech fighting you that had no real weapons, as well. I was just trying it out because I'm trying to get elite for the 2D so I can kill more of these damned raven 3Ls.

But like I said, right now it's like they aren't doing anything at all, and that's obviously broken. There's a variety of ways they could do flamers, but I think they are pretty low on PGI's priority list.

[Doc Holliday]

I think the solution for flame throwers is to keep the damage and heat dealt to the enemy as is, but have them work as a heat vent for the user, actually reducing his heat by a small amount (maybe .5 heat per second? less?). So you'd have to decide if it's worth giving up a slot and energy hard point for a weapon that doesn't do much other than vent a small amount of your heat.

[Gigastrike]

Doc Holliday, on 06 January 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

I think the solution for flame throwers is to keep the damage and heat dealt to the enemy as is, but have them work as a heat vent for the user, actually reducing his heat by a small amount (maybe .5 heat per second? less?). So you'd have to decide if it's worth giving up a slot and energy hard point for a weapon that doesn't do much other than vent a small amount of your heat.

That's really not how flamers work. They don't redirect heat that your mech is building up on its own, they create it.

Plus it could get a little broken where people would start using them as heatsinks that also do damage. Case in point: HBK-4P

Edited by Gigastrike, 06 January 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[nostra]

Canonically speaking...should flamers make your own heat go up at all? Every bit of background fluff about them states that they flush plasma/fire/heat directly from the 'mech's reactor core...wouldn't that then act like a giant heat-sink if anything? It would put a TON of heat on your enemy and possibly even lower your own.

[Doc Holliday]

nostra, on 06 January 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Canonically speaking...should flamers make your own heat go up at all? Every bit of background fluff about them states that they flush plasma/fire/heat directly from the 'mech's reactor core...wouldn't that then act like a giant heat-sink if anything? It would put a TON of heat on your enemy and possibly even lower your own.

Yeah, that's why I posted what I did.

Gigastrike, on 06 January 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

That's really not how flamers work. They don't redirect heat that your mech is building up on its own, they create it.

Plus it could get a little broken where people would start using them as heatsinks that also do damage. Case in point: HBK-4P

So what's the problem with that? They don't have to vent a lot of heat. There's a way to do it and balance it. But as it is right now, they're just pointless to even have in the game.

[Sug]

If flamers added amounts of heat that made a difference PGI would have to give them a drawback to prevent them from turning into some sort of Mech crowd control.

Idea: Let them heat up your target but give them a limited amount of fuel (ammo), say 30 seconds of total burn time, and they either explode for damage or add heat to your mech when they take a critical hit.

[Sandra McCrow]

Well theoretically what Flamers should do is reduce cooling speed. It's simple physics at work. By heating the surrounding of the thermoelement you are reducing the speed it can give heat away. Therefore I would say Flamers should make shooting more heat-expensive, but they shouldn't reaaly heat up your whole system if your guns are silent.

[WebeWizard]

As far as I can remember about the BT universe, flamers as well as machine guns are meant to be anti-personel weapons, not generally used against enemy mechs. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flamer I understand that they should add some heat to the target mech over time (NOT all in one instant like it is now), but really, how deadly is a candle to a multi-tonn, multi-story, metal death machine?

In the BT novels ( Grey Death Legion novels esp. ) The real heat-based threat to mech pilots is "inferno launchers" http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inferno . Which is like an intense napalm gel that sticks to the hulls of mechs, raising temps and possibly burning pilots alive in their cockpits.